PH at 7.4 ppm and Ammonia at 3.0 ppm

[dylanhenderson]

I just started to cycle my tank with LR and LS. It has been about 5 days. I just tested my water for the first time and I tested low PH and high Ammonia. Is this acceptable? Should I do a water change? The ammonia seems really high compared to what I have read on the forums. Some say change water, some say do not. Not sure what to do any help would be great.

[kentamason]

I'm only ten months into this myself, but an ammonia spike after fiver days doesn't seem unusual. Your developing bacteria from your LS and LR should take care of that in another week or so. Can't comment on the PH though...I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me will....

[Aristarchus]

The pH should be a little bit higher, around 8 to 8.2 i think. I would probably do a water change to help out. Mix the water to a sg of 1.024 and let it sit overnight to completely dissolve.

On a side note, pH is a logarithm of the hydronium ion concetration pH = -log[H+] Not ppm like a lot of people think. Hope this helps!

[Been_There8]

I think your PH was low to begin with, so its not the fact that it dropped. Just buy some ph bufferer, and you should be fine.

[NirvanaFan]

Ammonia at 3.0 is pretty normal for a tank that is cycling. There isn't enough bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite. It will take a bit, but they will catch up. You will see spikes of nitrite and then nitrate.

pH of 7.4 is really low. What salt mix did you use to make up your water? I would make up a couple gallons of saltwater and make sure it's mixed up real well (for like 24 hours). Test the pH. In the mean time, take a cup full of water and aerate it with an air pump and stone outside and test the pH after 15 minutes.

Check out the sticky posts on top of the reef chemistry forum. There are some good articles on pH.

(pH has no units of measure, it's just a number)

[dylanhenderson]

I used Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt mix. If I do a water change to get the PH up, how much water should I change out? It is a 75 gal tank with about 85lbs of LR (so around 55 gal of water). When you say, "take a cup full of water" do you mean from the DT where I originally tested from?

[dylanhenderson]

Also, thanks for the clarification on PH, I have wondered about that.

[NirvanaFan]

yes, take a cup full of water from the display and aerate it outside.

Are there any inhabitants in the tank? Do you have an Alkalinity test kit?

[Aristarchus]

I'd probably do a 10% water change, so around 5 gallons from what you described.

[lordofthereef]

Are you aerrating the tank in some way? If not, that could help the pH a bit. I tend to shy away from water changes because that will reduce your ammonia and effectively give less food to your bacteria you are trying to grow.

[Aristarchus]

Good point lordofthereef... +1

[PRDubois]

Originally Posted by NirvanaFan

yes, take a cup full of water from the display and aerate it outside.

Are there any inhabitants in the tank? Do you have an Alkalinity test kit?

What NirvanaFan is trying to tell you is:
High CO2 levels in the house can cause PH to drop.

To see if this is your problem you can take some water outside and aerate it using a airstone for 1 hour. Test the PH and see if it is still drastically low.
PH will be higher when you test it this way. thing is to see how much.
If your PH pops up to 8.2 or so you have a CO2 problem.

Another way to check this is to open a window near the tank for 24 hours then test the PH. If your PH pops up to 8.2 or so you have a CO2 problem.

[PRDubois]

Originally Posted by lordofthereef

Are you aerrating the tank in some way? If not, that could help the pH a bit. I tend to shy away from water changes because that will reduce your ammonia and effectively give less food to your bacteria you are trying to grow.

Are you ysing a skimmer? (good)

Have powerhead pointed toward the surface to ripple the top of the water (good)

Using a Sump (good)

Have glass top on tank (BAD)

[lordofthereef]

Originally Posted by PRDubois

Are you ysing a skimmer? (good)

Have powerhead pointed toward the surface to ripple the top of the water (good)

Using a Sump (good)

Have glass top on tank (BAD)

I agree, for the most part, however I don't feel a glass top is really all that bad if you have the above in place (referring to the sump and skimmer). Those two will give you far more aeration than an open topped tank.

[MaLi]

+1 lordofthereef. If you have a skimmer that is gone be the main avenue for aerating. A glass top is what you need for many reasons:
- dramatically reduces evaporation
- UV filter if you have Metal Halide lights
- dust and any other foreign object protection
... just to say a few.
I have a custom build double hinged glass top over a 60g cube and I am really happy with. I do have a 29g sump and a Turboflotor blue skimmer and my pH varies between 8.1-8.25 using Red Sea Coral Pro salt.

hope it helps,
Marian

[dylanhenderson]

Yes, I have a 30 x 12 x 16 sump with a Vertex 100N skimmer (replaced the Vertex pump with a Eheim pump). I have an EcoTech M20 Powerhead pushing water back to the overflow with a Mag (900/hr) return pump. I ran with just the water and LS for a few weeks before I got the LR running the skimmer the whole time. I do have a top on the tank. I will try to aerate some water outside the tank and see what happens. What do I do about a CO2 problem? Should I use a PH Buffer to raise my PH?

[rbnice1]

Buffer doesnt raise pH. Buffer raises alk which in turn is partially what controls pH.

What is the salinity of your tank water, what is the alk?

I would guess one of these is low for your pH to be that low. That or your pH test kit is bad.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

It's absolutely normal for pH to be way out of line in a brand new tank that's been set up with a large "food source" (i.e. lots of fresh live rock.) It sounds like you have decent flow in the tank - I'm not familiar with Vertex skimmers in person, but *any* skimmer will be aerating the water pretty well.

So, as long as your source water for topoff and water changes is OK (i.e. you're using RO/DI, not tap), I wouldn't worry too much about chasing pH at this point. You're using a perfectly acceptable brand of salt mix, so unless you decide to stock the tank heavily with calcifying livestock, I doubt you'll have longterm problems. Keep monitoring things, and if it doesn't level out after a week or two, then you can be concerned.

[dylanhenderson]

OK, I will keep monitoring the levels and see if things change. My specific gravity is a bit low (1.021) so maybe that is the issue. One more question: should I pull out the LR and give it a scrub at this point to get the dying material off? I will take the advice and not do a water change but it seems that there is quite a bit of "dirty" material on the LR.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

If there is material on the LR, by all means clean it off.

The fact that you've got 3.0 ammonia means that you've got more than enough material in the tank to kick off a reasonable cycle. IMHO, many people get so wrapped up in the cycle process, and parameters, that they forget that it's just a means to an end. The end goal is a tank robust enough to support your first livestock additions - that's it.

In most cases when a new tank is set up loaded with dirty live rock, there's far more than enough material to achieve this end goal. Hence, many newcomers struggle with "dirty" tanks, since they started out with way more dead organic matter than they need in the tank. Hence, IMHO, you should go ahead and do some water changes and clean the rock off.

Rather than taking it out and scrubbing it though, you might be fine just "blowing" it off in the tank with a turkey baster. Get all the gunk nice and stirred up in your water column, and then do a water change - when you're removing the old water, try to suck out as much of the gunk as possible.

No reason to keep your sg at 1.021, though I doubt that's contributing to low pH in a major way.

[wooden_reefer]

If there is a reason to change water during cycling, it is to prevent ammonia from exceed a certain level, sometimes suggested as 1 ppm, so as to preserve some lives on the rock.

Otherwise, there is no reason to change any water during cycling.

If one is not interested in or is not involved with preserving any lives during cycling, there is no reason to change any water during the cycle.

You may better plan to change all the water after cycling, but changing water during cycling, otherwise, does not make any sense.

I usually cycle using far less water than the volume of the intended tank, so changing 100% water (actual or in effect if I cycle in a separate container) is less costly.

3 ppm ammonia during the first half of the cycle is good in creating a very dense bacteria population at the end of the cycle, BTW.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

The end goal is a tank robust enough to support your first livestock additions - that's it.

Yes.

But one should also know that nitrification bacteria do not die quickly due to starving, ie lack of ammonia or nitrite. It takes a few weeks for the nitrification capacity to decrease by half.

One generally has three weeks at least for the first livestock addition, if the cycle is very robust at the end of cycle.

[dylanhenderson]

I will take it super slow in terms of adding livestock- thanks for clearing that up. I would like to save some life on the LR (stuff costs a lot!). I will take "der_wille_zur_macht"'s advice and blow the LR off- change 10% water and see if things settle a bit over the next week or so. Thanks for the help- I guess I should be glad that my ammonia is high, it just freaked me out that I am killing all of the "live" stuff I just spent so much money on.

[rbnice1]

If your salinity is 1.21 your will have low pH unless you are adding alk/calcium/mag separately.


Ph is alk/calcium/mag/O2. If you used less salt mix then you will be low on alk/calc/mag.

Bump your salinity to 1.025-1.027 and recheck your pH.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally Posted by rbnice1

If your salinity is 1.21 your will have low pH unless you are adding alk/calcium/mag separately.


Ph is alk/calcium/mag/O2. If you used less salt mix then you will be low on alk/calc/mag.

Bump your salinity to 1.025-1.027 and recheck your pH.

While salinity can certainly effect pH, IME the link isn't as strong as you seem to be indicating. pH is essentially a ratio, whereas salinity measures an absolute value - and, many of the components that alter pH in our systems are in no way related to salinity, anyways (dissolved gasses, for example). It's quite possible to have water at a low salinity with a high pH.

Although I agree that there is no reason for the salinity to remain low, and the OP should indeed bump it up to NSW levels.