How much vinegar until denitrification?

Paco · 11/07/2009, 06:51 PM

Hey everyone,

I'm up to 40 ml of vinegar into about 150 gallons of water and my 'trates aren't dropping. They're holding at about 20 PPM and I feel like I can see the tank suffering. I did a couple of pretty big water changes over two weeks (40 x 2, thoroughly cleaned sump, chaeto, skimmer) and the corals look better but I've got some zoas and palys that are dying in spite of these changes.

I've been increasing the Vinegar by 5 ml/week, been at it for about 8 or 10 weeks. Do I just keep increasing it? I mix it with Vinegar and slurry dose every morning. No dosing pump so cannot do throughout the day, though I guess I could split it into twice a day.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Mark

Paco · 11/08/2009, 12:30 PM

Bought a new nitrate test today. It's API like my old one. It's reading ~5ppm. I shouldn't have trusted the old one. It was like 4+ yrs old!

Eric45 · 11/08/2009, 12:50 PM

Are you using any other carbon sources i.e. vodka, sugar? I'm unconvinced that it makes any difference, just curious. I've been dosing v-s-v for a few months now and nitrates are between 0-5 ppm. I've not noted any deleterous affects on corals or fish.

Paco · 11/08/2009, 01:09 PM

Just vinegar at this point. Occasionally I add calcium gluconatr and have been thinking about dosing it daily as part of the carbon soup. Started adding MB7 today, too. We'll see what happens. I would have preferred a Salifert Nitrate test but they didn't have it. API sucks for low range

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/08/2009, 01:46 PM

Where did you get calcium gluconate?

Paco · 11/08/2009, 02:32 PM

Seachem Reef Calcium

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/09/2009, 05:42 AM

No, that isn't calcium gluconate. I wish it were. At least we'd know that would drive bacterial growth and know exactly how much alkalinity it added.

It is calcium POLYgluconate. That is an odd duck, IMO, and I do not recommend it. It adds some unknown amount of alkalinity as the polygluconate undergoes bacterial degradation. Seachem ignores this oddity despite my pointing it out to them in the past.

Paco · 11/09/2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

No, that isn't calcium gluconate. I wish it were. At least we'd know that would drive bacterial growth and know exactly how much alkalinity it added.

It is calcium POLYgluconate. That is an odd duck, IMO, and I do not recommend it. It adds some unknown amount of alkalinity as the polygluconate undergoes bacterial degradation. Seachem ignores this oddity despite my pointing it out to them in the past.

Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out! Is there a reliable source for Ca Gluconate? Or is it simpler to start ading sugar to my vinegar & kalk?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/09/2009, 09:14 AM

I do not know of a good DIY source of calcium gluconate except perhaps from health food stores, which will not be cheap. I make my own calcium acetate from vinegar and lime.

NexDog · 11/09/2009, 09:18 AM

40ml in 150g is pretty insane. And I thought vinegar was more potent than vodka. Most people adding vsv to large systems don't add that much.

Eric45 · 11/09/2009, 12:30 PM

Randy - Ever given any thought to the practical application of carbon dosing in pollution control? I would think EPA might have an interest in developing this technology. Seems like an opportunity for somenone. Eric

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/09/2009, 01:19 PM

40ml in 150g is pretty insane. And I thought vinegar was more potent than vodka. Most people adding vsv to large systems don't add that much.

Vinegar is much less potent than vodka. Maybe 8-fold less. I add 100-250 mL or more each day in my 120 gal system. I know that is a lot, and do not necessarily recommend that folk follow what I do, but I want folks to know vinegar is less potent. It is only 5% organic by weight while vodka is 40%, typically.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/09/2009, 01:20 PM

Randy - Ever given any thought to the practical application of carbon dosing in pollution control? I would think EPA might have an interest in developing this technology. Seems like an opportunity for somenone. Eric

I think they do grow a lot of bacteria, but I'm not familiar with the details of how.

tatuvaaj · 11/09/2009, 02:09 PM

Randy,

You don't have "sand clumping" problem? I've always accused acetate for it

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/09/2009, 03:27 PM

Nope, no sand clumping. IMO, high pH, high alkalinity, low magnesium, low organics and phosphate, and new sand all may play a role. Here's my usual post on it:

It is reasonably common to have sand harden, especially when new.

It is not entirely clear whether sand bed hardening is a purely physical process involving calcium carbonate deposition (or other minerals) that cements grains together, or whether it is mediated by bacterial processes, but it does not always happen.

It happens most frequently to new sand, and especially when the pH is high (as when using limewater). It happened to me when I first set up my first tank, but not when adding tanks to the existing system using the same type of sand. I would guess that higher alkalinity and calcium also contribute, as well as lower magnesium.

Often the effect disappears as tanks mature (the hard sections stay hard, but unclumped sand stays that way, and new sand won't as readily clump).
The addition of organisms (cucumbers, etc) seems to delay or stop the process as they keep it mixed up and perhaps break tiny links between grains before they become too established.

tatuvaaj · 11/10/2009, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Nope, no sand clumping. IMO, high pH, high alkalinity, low magnesium, low organics and phosphate, and new sand all may play a role.

Thanks

Dosing vinegar together with limewater is so convenient I'll start it again. BTW, is your vinegar 5% acetic acid?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/10/2009, 05:30 AM

Yes, normal vinegar in the US is 5%.

Paco · 11/10/2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

No, that isn't calcium gluconate. I wish it were. At least we'd know that would drive bacterial growth and know exactly how much alkalinity it added. It is calcium POLYgluconate.

Randy, I checked the bottle and the Ingredients List says Calcium Gluconate but the description says "bioavailable polygluconate complexed calcium".

Anyway, I've only used it occasionally. It's one of those things that every few weeks I think "I should throw some in" and I toss in a cap or two.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 11/11/2009, 07:20 AM

I discuss with Seachem the nature and effects of the product here. FWIW, they do not really appear to understand it well.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=616674

11/07/2009, 06:51 PM	#1
Paco Move Don Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,210	How much vinegar until denitrification? Hey everyone, I'm up to 40 ml of vinegar into about 150 gallons of water and my 'trates aren't dropping. They're holding at about 20 PPM and I feel like I can see the tank suffering. I did a couple of pretty big water changes over two weeks (40 x 2, thoroughly cleaned sump, chaeto, skimmer) and the corals look better but I've got some zoas and palys that are dying in spite of these changes. I've been increasing the Vinegar by 5 ml/week, been at it for about 8 or 10 weeks. Do I just keep increasing it? I mix it with Vinegar and slurry dose every morning. No dosing pump so cannot do throughout the day, though I guess I could split it into twice a day. Thanks in advance for your thoughts! Mark __________________ Fish are nitrate factories. Remove them and watch your nitrates come down. Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/08/2009, 12:30 PM	#2
Paco Move Don Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,210	Bought a new nitrate test today. It's API like my old one. It's reading ~5ppm. I shouldn't have trusted the old one. It was like 4+ yrs old! __________________ Fish are nitrate factories. Remove them and watch your nitrates come down. Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/08/2009, 01:09 PM	#4
Paco Move Don Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,210	Just vinegar at this point. Occasionally I add calcium gluconatr and have been thinking about dosing it daily as part of the carbon soup. Started adding MB7 today, too. We'll see what happens. I would have preferred a Salifert Nitrate test but they didn't have it. API sucks for low range __________________ Fish are nitrate factories. Remove them and watch your nitrates come down. Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/08/2009, 01:46 PM	#5
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Where did you get calcium gluconate? __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/08/2009, 02:32 PM	#6
Paco Move Don Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 1,210	Seachem Reef Calcium __________________ Fish are nitrate factories. Remove them and watch your nitrates come down. Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/08/2009, 12:50 PM	#3
Eric45 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 725	Are you using any other carbon sources i.e. vodka, sugar? I'm unconvinced that it makes any difference, just curious. I've been dosing v-s-v for a few months now and nitrates are between 0-5 ppm. I've not noted any deleterous affects on corals or fish.

11/09/2009, 05:42 AM	#7
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	No, that isn't calcium gluconate. I wish it were. At least we'd know that would drive bacterial growth and know exactly how much alkalinity it added. It is calcium POLYgluconate. That is an odd duck, IMO, and I do not recommend it. It adds some unknown amount of alkalinity as the polygluconate undergoes bacterial degradation. Seachem ignores this oddity despite my pointing it out to them in the past. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/09/2009, 09:14 AM	#9
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I do not know of a good DIY source of calcium gluconate except perhaps from health food stores, which will not be cheap. I make my own calcium acetate from vinegar and lime. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/09/2009, 09:18 AM	#10
NexDog Snail Killer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kyushu, Japan Posts: 4,804	40ml in 150g is pretty insane. And I thought vinegar was more potent than vodka. Most people adding vsv to large systems don't add that much. __________________ Laurence Flynn 340g In-Wall Envision Tank and 150g Sump. Current Tank Info: Deltec 902, PFO hood with 3x400w Radium 20k and 4x96w PC's. Hammerhead closed loop - and 2 x Tunze 6105 (and Vortech still sucks).

11/09/2009, 12:30 PM	#11
Eric45 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 725	Randy - Ever given any thought to the practical application of carbon dosing in pollution control? I would think EPA might have an interest in developing this technology. Seems like an opportunity for somenone. Eric

11/09/2009, 01:19 PM	#12
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	40ml in 150g is pretty insane. And I thought vinegar was more potent than vodka. Most people adding vsv to large systems don't add that much. Vinegar is much less potent than vodka. Maybe 8-fold less. I add 100-250 mL or more each day in my 120 gal system. I know that is a lot, and do not necessarily recommend that folk follow what I do, but I want folks to know vinegar is less potent. It is only 5% organic by weight while vodka is 40%, typically. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/09/2009, 01:20 PM	#13
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Randy - Ever given any thought to the practical application of carbon dosing in pollution control? I would think EPA might have an interest in developing this technology. Seems like an opportunity for somenone. Eric I think they do grow a lot of bacteria, but I'm not familiar with the details of how. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/09/2009, 02:09 PM	#14
tatuvaaj Pro-Protozoa Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 1,228	Randy, You don't have "sand clumping" problem? I've always accused acetate for it __________________ Tatu Vaajalahti Tampere, Finland Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling

11/09/2009, 03:27 PM	#15
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Nope, no sand clumping. IMO, high pH, high alkalinity, low magnesium, low organics and phosphate, and new sand all may play a role. Here's my usual post on it: It is reasonably common to have sand harden, especially when new. It is not entirely clear whether sand bed hardening is a purely physical process involving calcium carbonate deposition (or other minerals) that cements grains together, or whether it is mediated by bacterial processes, but it does not always happen. It happens most frequently to new sand, and especially when the pH is high (as when using limewater). It happened to me when I first set up my first tank, but not when adding tanks to the existing system using the same type of sand. I would guess that higher alkalinity and calcium also contribute, as well as lower magnesium. Often the effect disappears as tanks mature (the hard sections stay hard, but unclumped sand stays that way, and new sand won't as readily clump). The addition of organisms (cucumbers, etc) seems to delay or stop the process as they keep it mixed up and perhaps break tiny links between grains before they become too established. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/10/2009, 05:30 AM	#17
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Yes, normal vinegar in the US is 5%. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

11/11/2009, 07:20 AM	#19
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I discuss with Seachem the nature and effects of the product here. FWIW, they do not really appear to understand it well. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=616674 __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef