Buying Tank, A Few Questions

[Mister_Palmer]

How's it going everyone. I've pretty much decided to take the plunge into Saltwater.
I currently have a 55G Cichlid tank up and running for about a year now, and it's doing great.

There are 2 local S.W only stores nearby, but their tank/stand deals are pretty off from what I can get from a place like Petsmart.

Petsmart has a 56G Column Tank/Stand/Hood+Lights combo that I'm thinking about getting.

- I assume that I'll have to upgrade to Marine Lighting? Would I be able to simply buy a better bulb and put it in the stock hood?
The guy at the S.W store claimed that with the "Standard lighting" on their 38G Combo I'd be able to do some Coral.

- I'm currently using an Aquaclear 110 on the Cichlid tank, and it works really well. Would I be able to get by with this on a 56G S.W tank?
I'm kind of confused on when the Sump comes into play, is it at a certain Gallon amount, or any kind of Reef?

- Kind of a an odd question, but I'm living in a 20 year old 2 story house. I have the 55G in a family room on the first floor (Basement below, upper level above...)
Adding another 56G tank to the same room, on another wall going against the joists won't be a problem will it?

- Just a quick check list of what I'm planning on getting, am I missing anything obvious?

1. Tank/Stand/Glass Canopy
2. Upgraded Bulbs
3. Live/Wet Sand
4. Live Rock (Actually not AS expensive as I was thinking. $4.5/LB)
5. HOB Filter
6. Heater
7. Testing Kit
8. Hydrometer

According to my calculations I'm looking $600 or so plus whatever lighting might be. Am I off?

Thanks so much

[joeychitwood]

To Reef Central

Be sure to read the stickies at the top of the thread list. There will be answers to all of your questions in the various topics. Be sure to read as much as you can before you buy. You'll avoid buying useless or inappropriate items.

[Saltwatercoral2]

Do you plan on running a sump? I would recommend getting a protein skimmer? What kind of tank are you looking for? reef tank or fowlr?

[Mister_Palmer]

Originally Posted by Saltwatercoral2

Do you plan on running a sump? I would recommend getting a protein skimmer? What kind of tank are you looking for? reef tank or fowlr?

I'm probably going to start with Fowlr, but maybe progress into some Reef.
I wasn't planning on going the Sump route.

Would a AC110 with the L.R be enough filtration on a 40-56G tank?

[mgoblue]

Welcome!

My thoughts:

Skip the hydrometer in favor of a refractometer.
I also don't see anything on your list for water movement other than the HOB filter, which is not going to cut it.

Personally, I would re-think your sump decision. Having one opens up a lot of possibilities and lets you hide most of your equipment and lets you get better equipment (better skimmer for instance if you go that route).

If you would like to migrate to a reef at some point, then make your decisions based on that now. There are some things that are much easier to do when you start rather than trying to retrofit your tank later on. It may also affect your tank decision. That 56G column is 24" deep, which is going to be harder to light than something a little shallower.

If you think you are going to go fowlr and stay there, then check out the fowlr forum on this site and look at people's signatures to see the types of equipment they are running.

As already mentioned, read the stickies. There is a ton of good advice in them.

[epic.exposures]

Originally Posted by Mister_Palmer

How's it going everyone. I've pretty much decided to take the plunge into Saltwater.
I currently have a 55G Cichlid tank up and running for about a year now, and it's doing great.

There are 2 local S.W only stores nearby, but their tank/stand deals are pretty off from what I can get from a place like Petsmart.

Petsmart has a 56G Column Tank/Stand/Hood+Lights combo that I'm thinking about getting.

- I assume that I'll have to upgrade to Marine Lighting? Would I be able to simply buy a better bulb and put it in the stock hood?
The guy at the S.W store claimed that with the "Standard lighting" on their 38G Combo I'd be able to do some Coral.

- I'm currently using an Aquaclear 110 on the Cichlid tank, and it works really well. Would I be able to get by with this on a 56G S.W tank?
I'm kind of confused on when the Sump comes into play, is it at a certain Gallon amount, or any kind of Reef?

- Kind of a an odd question, but I'm living in a 20 year old 2 story house. I have the 55G in a family room on the first floor (Basement below, upper level above...)
Adding another 56G tank to the same room, on another wall going against the joists won't be a problem will it?

- Just a quick check list of what I'm planning on getting, am I missing anything obvious?

1. Tank/Stand/Glass Canopy
2. Upgraded Bulbs
3. Live/Wet Sand
4. Live Rock (Actually not AS expensive as I was thinking. $4.5/LB)
5. HOB Filter
6. Heater
7. Testing Kit
8. Hydrometer

According to my calculations I'm looking $600 or so plus whatever lighting might be. Am I off?

Thanks so much

Are you talking about this tank?

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...26amp%3B+Bowls

If so I have the EXACT same tank, i bought mine on 12/10. Its a neat tank bt I would HIGHLY recommend purchasing a tank from the saltwater store with a built in overflow. My tank has to have the ugly/eye sore of an overflow on the lip of the tank in the back. Its a sweet tank, neat shape and everything but you will need to buy a pretty good aftermarket lamp for the tank due to the depth of the model. ALSO it is very hard finding 30" fixtures to fit this tank size as well as stands. It's going to cost you extra to find a fixture due to its oddball sze.

[epic.exposures]

You will need a protein skimmer for tanks over 40 gallons, unless if you are 100% commited to a 15% water change WEEKLY. I am spending time getting the pieces for my tank as I have the money, I set a little aside from each paycheck. THis is a hobby where you wantto do everything right. So take your time, do the research and dig into some information. Get advise and do it right the first time.

[Sk8r]

good advice.
Running a marine tank without a sump can be done, but it cannot be done easily. Equipment that needs to go in water: a skimmer, footprint about 6x8. A heater, footprint about 2x2. The pump may be submerged, footprint about 6x6.
And while corals can be kept in very small tanks (given adequate lighting), marine fish grow huge, and require a long tank for running room: 4'-8' for tangs and larger angels, species-specific, [some measure their length in feet], 3'-4' for dwarf angels, etc. A 50 is great for blennies and gobies, as I keep, but do not plan on larger species.

[epic.exposures]

Pricing (based on afishybusiness.com)

tank and stand at petsmart 239 dollars
24" Current 4 bulb t5 at 48w/bulb 199dollars
Wet/dry or refug 175
Skimmer 150
Return Pump 50
Overflow box 75
Sand 60
Live rock 120 - 260
Marine Test Kit 40
Salt - 50
Hydrometer, thermometer, and accesories ~30
Heater 35-45

At least $1,223 required to make this a reef system, if your going FOWLR it would be closer to 1000.

This is were I would gihly recommend that you use Craigslist like a mad man. So many people get out of saltwater quickly you canget sumps, filters etc for dirt cheap. I just purchased a refugium, skimmer, pumps and hoses for 60 bucks.

[epic.exposures]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

good advice.
Running a marine tank without a sump can be done, but it cannot be done easily. Equipment that needs to go in water: a skimmer, footprint about 6x8. A heater, footprint about 2x2. The pump may be submerged, footprint about 6x6.
And while corals can be kept in very small tanks (given adequate lighting), marine fish grow huge, and require a long tank for running room: 4'-8' for tangs and larger angels, species-specific, [some measure their length in feet], 3'-4' for dwarf angels, etc. A 50 is great for blennies and gobies, as I keep, but do not plan on larger species.

Another good point Sk8tr, I am going to put clownfish, gobies, and a couple other small species in my tank. But I WILL NOT put a tang in the tank as its only 30" wide. You ought to get a 55 long if you want a medium sized fish. You could even go up to 90 gallons without taking too much more money, the 4 bulb t5 48watt fixture would be fine on this 60 gallon tank.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...ductId=3804465

at petsmart its 20 dollars more for the tank, and everything else will still work with it. My heater is a $35 jager/eheim heater that goes up to 75 gallons, but you would have the option of a medium sized fish. I currently live in an apartment and the fish tank limit is 50 gallons, so I had to buy renters insurance for my 56 gallon tank, and I don't have a lot of room, but if you ave a home, deffenitely get the 60 gallon tank if you want a couple pretty fish.

[karsco]

MP, welcome to Reef Central! Very good advice so far, I would recommend taking your time and buying better equipment from the start. I think your success and happiness will be greater if you buy the right equipment from the beginning. Here is my 2 cents:

- If you want around a 55 gallon tank stay away from a cylinder tank, harder to light, water flow, and sand surface area is much less. A good tank IMO in this size is a 58G show. Good depth easier to light, and to provide water movement. Get a tank that is predrilled with built in overflow and have like a 30 or 40 gallon tank as your sump.

- Buy the best skimmer you can afford, or you will be buying another one a year from now. Consider buying a used skimmer if you are on a tight budget.

- Do not skimp on lighting, consider T-5's since you are just starting this will give you the availibility to keep a wide range of corals without producing a ton of heat.

- For your rock, to cut down costs consider on buying half live rock and half dry rock. This will get you started and in 6 months you won't be able to tell the rocks apart. BRS would be a good place to start (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...-fiji-dry-rock)

- Last but not least read, read, read, and read some more. There are a lot of resources on this site and a ton of experience. OK I am done rambling, Good Luck!

[Mister_Palmer]

Thanks so much for all your replies.
I'm actually thinking about going Fish-Only, at least to start.

I did talk to a guy at a S.W store who said that with the stock lighting in one of their tanks (Whatever wattage that is), I would be able to do a few soft corals. I'm OK with that, as a beginner.

Originally Posted by mgoblue

Welcome!

My thoughts:

Skip the hydrometer in favor of a refractometer.
I also don't see anything on your list for water movement other than the HOB filter, which is not going to cut it.

Personally, I would re-think your sump decision. Having one opens up a lot of possibilities and lets you hide most of your equipment and lets you get better equipment (better skimmer for instance if you go that route).

That 56G column is 24" deep, which is going to be harder to light than something a little shallower.

You're right, I forgot about some movement. I'm thinking just doing a power-head(s) for movement, along with the HOB

As far as hiding the equipment, I'm not crazy concerned with that. I mean, I don't mind seeing the heater/filter.

You're right about the 56G column, I'm now just looking for a standard 4-Foot long 55G. I don't think I want the column anymore.

Originally Posted by epic.exposures

Are you talking about this tank?

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...26amp%3B+Bowls

That's the one, yes. Like I said, I'm probably going to look for more of the rectangle style, which will be better for lighting and swim space.

Originally Posted by epic.exposures

You will need a protein skimmer for tanks over 40 gallons, unless if you are 100% commited to a 15% water change WEEKLY. I am spending time getting the pieces for my tank as I have the money, I set a little aside from each paycheck. THis is a hobby where you wantto do everything right. So take your time, do the research and dig into some information. Get advise and do it right the first time.

I don't mind doing a W.C a week at all, the LFS is like 2 minutes from my house. 15% would only be around 8-9Gs, which wouldn't be terrible.

But I have found a few used Protein Skimmer on Craigslist that I'm currently waiting to hear back on prices. If I could get one cheap, I would go that route.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

good advice.
Running a marine tank without a sump can be done, but it cannot be done easily.

And while corals can be kept in very small tanks (given adequate lighting), marine fish grow huge, and require a long tank for running room: 4'-8' for tangs and larger angels, species-specific, [some measure their length in feet], 3'-4' for dwarf angels, etc. A 50 is great for blennies and gobies, as I keep, but do not plan on larger species.

Right now I'm leaning towards trying it without the sump, with possibly a Skimmer and just more frequent W.Cs.

As far as fish growth, I've pretty much just crossed Tangs off my lists. They're amazing, but like you said, it seems like every site lists that form 75G+

The store I went to had a site though, and did list some Tangs as 55+
- Flamefin Tomini Tang
- White Cheek Tang

Not sure if that's true or not.

Originally Posted by epic.exposures

Pricing (based on afishybusiness.com)
I would gihly recommend that you use Craigslist like a mad man. So many people get out of saltwater quickly you can get sumps, filters etc for dirt cheap. I just purchased a refugium, skimmer, pumps and hoses for 60 bucks.

I'm in the process of scouring CL right now. A lot more Fresh Water than Salt supplies it seems, but there's some good deals on Tanks+Stands.

Like right now, in my area, there's a 30G Tank+Stand, Filter, Heater, etc for $40.

Too bad I can't find anything that good in the 50 Range currently.

Originally Posted by epic.exposures

You ought to get a 55 long if you want a medium sized fish. You could even go up to 90 gallons without taking too much more money, the 4 bulb t5 48watt fixture would be fine on this 60 gallon tank.

The 40-55 range is really all I have space for, plus even the 10G difference is like another $60-$70 in Live Rock/Sand right off the bat.

Originally Posted by karsco

Consider buying a used skimmer if you are on a tight budget.

- For your rock, to cut down costs consider on buying half live rock and half dry rock. This will get you started and in 6 months you won't be able to tell the rocks apart. BRS would be a good place to start (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...-fiji-dry-rock)

Is there any rules on buying used Skimmers? Like what to look for? I know that it's based on brand and quality, but what might be a good price on a used Skimmer for a 40-55G range?

I keep hearing 1Lb per Gallon, but you can do 50/50?

Let's say I end up going with HOB Filter and Skimmer. Would that affect the Live Rock ratio at all?
Would I need more LR to help filter?

[Mister_Palmer]

Sorry, I'm still learning S.W equipment...

In order to run a Protein Skimmer, must you have the Sump and plumbing?

[con999]

Originally Posted by Mister_Palmer

Sorry, I'm still learning S.W equipment...

In order to run a Protein Skimmer, must you have the Sump and plumbing?

well their are HOB skimmers but their juust too hard o upkeep. i wouldent buy anouth one if i was paid. why not just do a 20 gallon sump somthing small. also i would ditch the HOB they are factorys for nitries(sp). for the PW heads you are looking at i would recomend a 20-30 tune over rate. also i wouldent turst that petstore. unless their tanks come with t-5 i would doubt that that light would be good.

[Mister_Palmer]

I'm kind of wanting something bigger, only for the reason of having a few more fish and more options.

I've seen the 20 gallon nanos(?) at the S.W stores, with everything on it.
But they're like $400+

If you went 20G aren't you only talking maybe 2-3 fish?

[karsco]

MP, since it looks like you are on a tight budget have you considered just buying a complete setup used in your local area? That way you could get better equipment, a tank that has a drilled overflow, sump, skimmer etc. There are always people getting out of this hobby because either they can not afford it or they don't want to put the time in to take care of the tank. I would try craigslist & your local reef club (web site if they have one). I see nice complete setups for sale all the time in my area.

[Mister_Palmer]

Yeah, I'm on somewhat of a budget.
I'm looking around on CL.

I'm seeing a lot of tank+stand, but not a ton of "completes"

This is probably the best one I found...
Want to take a look?

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/for/2100448607.html

Is that a good price? I guess I'd need to find out what all else is there.
The other thing is I kind of want to buy my own fish, so anything that "comes with fish"... Do you just take them back if you want?

[karsco]

Yeah that's not a bad set up /price, kind of like that stand. Does not mention a sump, or skimmer though. You could probably get it for like $250, get the tank drilled & overflow installed locally for like a $100, build a sump from like a 30L tank $50, buy a new or used skimmer $170. A good economical skimmer would be like an Octo 4. http://www.marinedepot.com/Reef_Octo...1-FIPS-vi.html

So you could hypothetically have everything you need to get started for like $570. I highly recommend a sump, I have had various tanks for about 22 years and for ease of maintenance and to hide all the pumps, heaters, filters it is the only way to go. Off course you are still going to need salt, hydrometer, and other stuff to get this thing going. Maybe the guy is including some of these items as well.

[dzfish17]

Dont be fooled, there are alot of people that have very nice tanks that run sumpless. I do have to agree that you are more limited on HOB skimmers.

You can use the HOB filter also, you just have to clean the media more frequently.

The only difference to me between a sump and no sump is hiding equipment. It is much easier to hide equipment with a sump.

Dave

[tinkerman]

Arn't all 55 gal tanks tempered= don't drill. I may be wrong but am pretty sure they are. If your willing to do a 55 why not go a little bigger and do a 75 gal. It will get you big enough to have a tang and not be a huge tank. You could also drill it or find a rr set up very common tank size. That or if you have a petco near you they have a dollor a gallon sale and you could do a 40 breeder. The sump could be a 20 long. Would require so diy skills. The 40 bredder can be drilled side or bottom and 75 on the back. You can do alittle more with the aquascape in a 40 or 75 then in a 55 gal.

[karsco]

No a sump is not mandatory, it just make things easier and creates a better reef tank by creating more water volume, filter media (filter sock) a place to add rock (more filtration) refugium/RDSB for nitrate reduction, & for fauna/ pods to procreate and get back to the display. To me it's kind of the heart of a tank. Just my 2 cents...

[kale98]

55 is usually only tempered glass on bottom, so can be drilled out the back. I do agree with stepping up to a 75 gallon same size as 55 but about 6 inches deeper giving you more room for the live rock and still have swimming space, if you look at pictures of 55's you will notice the rock take up the whole tank and no room in front.

[tinkerman]

For 55's the one that wal mart sells are all tempered and marinelands are also not sure on aqueon.

[Mister_Palmer]

Could I get some thoughts on these 2 tanks?
I went to an additional SW store, and they had 2 I was looking at...

1.
- 55 Gallon + Stand
- About 6 new bottles of "Kent(s)" products
- 4 Bulb T5 lighting
$175

2.
- 55 Gallon R/R Tank + Oak Stand
- Sump
- Return Pump
- Live Sand
- 2 Power Heads
- 50LBs Live Rock
$525

Tanks 2 was a complete set-up in the store, without fish.
You could get all the Coral and Lighting on it for a Total of $850

Any thoughts, Are these decent?

Tank 1:
[img]http://i53.*******.com/2dan8ls.jpg[/img]

Tank 2:
[img]http://i56.*******.com/2akbbp.jpg[/img]

[Mister_Palmer]

The more I think about it, the better those 2 tanks above sound.

Especially considering the prices of a place like Petsmart for Stand/Tanks.
Plus it's from a store, so at least you have a place to complain to if something happens, unlike Craigs.

They don't seem like bad deals