Does this sump work?

ReefWhatYouSow · 05/11/2014, 10:12 AM

Looking for some advice... I will be building a 210 gallon in wall tank. I already have the tank and I am looking to pick up the sump tomorrow. I'm looking at a Trigger 36e sump. Nice sump. I already have a Bermuda BPS 5c skimmer with Mag 12 pump.

Is this sump a good size for the tank?

Thanks!

AZBigJohn · 05/11/2014, 01:57 PM

It is fairly small for a 210 gallon tank (only 40 gallons in size, with an operating volume of 23 gallons) but it is an excellent sump built in a compact package. If size constraints are an issue, then it might be a good choice for you.

Are you having a "fish room" behind the build for sump and supplies, or are you having to cram everything into a small closet?

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 02:01 PM

I also say depending on how much room you have depends on the sump. Go big or go home. The bigger the better.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 02:03 PM

Three things when using a smaller sump.

1. Check valves on the return lines.
2. Don't place the outlets of the return lines deep in the tanks. Check valves can fail.
3. Once your plumbing is complete test the back flow, kill the power and make sure your sump does not over flow. do this 3 or 5 times to be sure the system will not leave you a mess..

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlsund

Three things when using a smaller sump.

1. Check valves on the return lines.
2. Don't place the outlets of the return lines deep in the tanks. Check valves can fail.
3. Once your plumbing is complete test the back flow, kill the power and make sure your sump does not over flow. do this 3 or 5 times to be sure the system will not leave you a mess..

Dont use check valves. They fail. Its a waste of money. Just figure out the amount of volume that will drain in power failure and design the sump around that.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 02:11 PM

I use the flap ones, the spring ones are a complete waste! I like the security but sponger is correct you need to know the volume of drain in power fail...

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 02:15 PM

I just prefer not to use them at all. If the sump can hold the drain volume, you dont need them.

ReefWhatYouSow · 05/11/2014, 03:33 PM

You all are definitely giving me a lot to think about. So I guess you can call where it will sit my make shift fish room. It's a closet in the middle of the house that is about 7ft x 5ft. Enough room that I can shut the door while I'm in it and hide from my wife and kid lol... I don't have the stand yet, bug I was thinking of constructing a steel one. I saw a nice thread on this that I'm following now.

So I definitely like the design of the sump but I don't want it to be too small. Would I have to build one larger or have one made?

Also, an you all tell me why you would want a larger sump? What exactly does it do for you the larger it is? I had thought it was more for housing filtration (natural and not)?

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 03:38 PM

Alot of it has to do with the turnover and how much flow you have going through the sump.
One of the biggest mistakes is having too large of a pump and the water flow is so high that it gets no treatment time in the sump especially if that's where you keep the skimmer and refuge or deep sand bed or live rock filtration..

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 03:40 PM

A larger sump allows for more equipment, bigger equipment. Other types of equipment you may want to add are reactors in the future, bigger/better skimmer. Also an ATO and other stuff.

Also it allows for a larger fuge to allow for growth of pods and macro alge to combat any algae growing in your sump.

A smaller sump is going to make access difficult in it also.

It adds to the total volume of the system and stability.

If you dont have a stand yet, Id say make the sump and then design the stand around that. A 75 gallon tank would make a nice size sump and might even be cheaper to make then to buy a premade sump.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 03:41 PM

your sump aerates the tank, removes ammonia, captures detritus with filter socks and gives you a place to clean the water... if the only goal of your sump is to remove the ammonia and trap detritus then maybe if you want extended time in a small sump with a really large tank you have to think about the tank turnover..

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

A larger sump allows for more equipment, bigger equipment. Other types of equipment you may want to add are reactors in the future, bigger/better skimmer. Also an ATO and other stuff.

Also it allows for a larger fuge to allow for growth of pods and macro alge to combat any algae growing in your sump.

A smaller sump is going to make access difficult in it also.

It adds to the total volume of the system and stability.

If you dont have a stand yet, Id say make the sump and then design the stand around that. A 75 gallon tank would make a nice size sump and might even be cheaper to make then to buy a premade sump.

100% agreed

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlsund

your sump aerates the tank, removes ammonia, captures detritus with filter socks and gives you a place to clean the water... if the only goal of your sump is to remove the ammonia and trap detritus then maybe if you want extended time in a small sump with a really large tank you have to think about the tank turnover..

Sumps do not remove ammonia. Where you got this info is beyond me. The sump itself doesnt remove anything. Your skimmer removes dissolved waste. Phosphate reactors, algae scrubbers and algae refugiums help battle algae problems and phosphate issues.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

A larger sump allows for more equipment, bigger equipment. Other types of equipment you may want to add are reactors in the future, bigger/better skimmer. Also an ATO and other stuff.

Also it allows for a larger fuge to allow for growth of pods and macro alge to combat any algae growing in your sump.

A smaller sump is going to make access difficult in it also.

It adds to the total volume of the system and stability.

If you dont have a stand yet, Id say make the sump and then design the stand around that. A 75 gallon tank would make a nice size sump and might even be cheaper to make then to buy a premade sump.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

Sumps do not remove ammonia. Where you got this info is beyond me. The sump itself doesnt remove anything. Your skimmer removes dissolved waste. Phosphate reactors, algae scrubbers and algae refugiums help battle algae problems and phosphate issues.

Sorry it's not removed its reduced by oxidation ...

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlsund

Sorry it's not removed its reduced by oxidation ...

Thats not true either. Ammonia is processed, not removed through the bacteria that is living in the tank through what is known as the nitrogen cycle. The bacteria lives on the rock and sand.

ReefWhatYouSow · 05/11/2014, 04:09 PM

So what I am hearing is that the bigger the sump then definitely the more things that can go into it to aid in reducing the chemicals. Also, from what I have read. Algae is actually a good thing to have... Just not pretty, so we make a safe haven for it in the sump and keep it out of the tank (or try to) lol...

Is it possible to use two sumps? Or more importantly would it be beneficial in any way? Maybe everything from one being pumped into the other instead of back to the tank. And from the second sump up to the tank. Or.... When the water leaves the tank it is split between the two sumps. Gone through the process and then returned to the tank?

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sponger0

Thats not true either. Ammonia is processed, not removed through the bacteria that is living in the tank through what is known as the nitrogen cycle. The bacteria lives on the rock and sand.

nitrosomonas... oxygen loving bacteria.. but oxygenating the water is the key i'm getting at and the sump is where you want that to happen.
from what i understand NH-no3 should be focused on in the sump.
No-3 to No2 to No is what primarily happens in the tank.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReefWhatYouSow

Is it possible to use two sumps? Or more importantly would it be beneficial in any way? Maybe everything from one being pumped into the other instead of back to the tank. And from the second sump up to the tank. Or.... When the water leaves the tank it is split between the two sumps. Gone through the process and then returned to the tank?

this is hard you can plumb two sumps in serial so they flow but you don't want to mechanically pump below the tank unless that loop is closed...

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReefWhatYouSow

So what I am hearing is that the bigger the sump then definitely the more things that can go into it to aid in reducing the chemicals. Also, from what I have read. Algae is actually a good thing to have... Just not pretty, so we make a safe haven for it in the sump and keep it out of the tank (or try to) lol...

Is it possible to use two sumps? Or more importantly would it be beneficial in any way? Maybe everything from one being pumped into the other instead of back to the tank. And from the second sump up to the tank. Or.... When the water leaves the tank it is split between the two sumps. Gone through the process and then returned to the tank?

Algae isnt a good thing. But in a fuge you can grow magro algaes to battle algae from growing in your display. It will eat up phosphates and nitrates which fuels algae growth.

You can use 2 sumps but it would be more simple running one large one IMO.

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlsund

nitrosomonas... oxygen loving bacteria.. but oxygenating the water is the key i'm getting at and the sump is where you want that to happen.
from what i understand NH-no3 should be focused on in the sump.
No-3 to No2 to No is what primarily happens in the tank.

Its still the bacteria processing not removing ammonia. Oxygen doesnt do it. On top of that if you didnt oxygenate the water properly, fish would die.

ReefWhatYouSow · 05/11/2014, 04:29 PM

Well I need live fish.... Or else my wife will kill me.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 04:30 PM

he he he...
especially at 30 bucks a pop...

ReefWhatYouSow · 05/11/2014, 04:31 PM

Any recommendations on size and styles of the sump for the size tank I mentioned? I like the style of the sump that I asked about. It seems to increase the flow of the sump a little since the water goes into two areas of it at the same time.

sponger0 · 05/11/2014, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReefWhatYouSow

Any recommendations on size and styles of the sump for the size tank I mentioned? I like the style of the sump that I asked about. It seems to increase the flow of the sump a little since the water goes into two areas of it at the same time.

There are many ways of designing it. I say make it yourself. A 75 gallon tank with glass or acrylic baffles will work.

As far as oxygenating the water, all you need is water surface agitation and that will cover it.

If you wanna know more about sumps and their design and function, google "melev's reef". Everything and anything you wanna know about sumps will be there.

mlsund · 05/11/2014, 04:39 PM

No clue, Id see how much i could get for the old one and sink that into a new one...

05/11/2014, 10:12 AM	#1
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	Does this sump work? Looking for some advice... I will be building a 210 gallon in wall tank. I already have the tank and I am looking to pick up the sump tomorrow. I'm looking at a Trigger 36e sump. Nice sump. I already have a Bermuda BPS 5c skimmer with Mag 12 pump. Is this sump a good size for the tank? Thanks!

05/11/2014, 01:57 PM	#2
AZBigJohn Usually confused... Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,091	It is fairly small for a 210 gallon tank (only 40 gallons in size, with an operating volume of 23 gallons) but it is an excellent sump built in a compact package. If size constraints are an issue, then it might be a good choice for you. Are you having a "fish room" behind the build for sump and supplies, or are you having to cram everything into a small closet? __________________ John Current Tank Info: Currently a 29 gallon all-in-one frag tank and a 210 gallon tank slowly becoming my dream system!

05/11/2014, 02:03 PM	#4
mlsund Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 88	Three things when using a smaller sump. 1. Check valves on the return lines. 2. Don't place the outlets of the return lines deep in the tanks. Check valves can fail. 3. Once your plumbing is complete test the back flow, kill the power and make sure your sump does not over flow. do this 3 or 5 times to be sure the system will not leave you a mess.. __________________ Here we are again...

05/11/2014, 02:11 PM	#6
mlsund Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 88	I use the flap ones, the spring ones are a complete waste! I like the security but sponger is correct you need to know the volume of drain in power fail... __________________ Here we are again...

05/11/2014, 03:38 PM	#9
mlsund Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 88	Alot of it has to do with the turnover and how much flow you have going through the sump. One of the biggest mistakes is having too large of a pump and the water flow is so high that it gets no treatment time in the sump especially if that's where you keep the skimmer and refuge or deep sand bed or live rock filtration.. __________________ Here we are again...

05/11/2014, 02:01 PM	#3
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	I also say depending on how much room you have depends on the sump. Go big or go home. The bigger the better.

05/11/2014, 02:15 PM	#7
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	I just prefer not to use them at all. If the sump can hold the drain volume, you dont need them.

05/11/2014, 03:33 PM	#8
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	You all are definitely giving me a lot to think about. So I guess you can call where it will sit my make shift fish room. It's a closet in the middle of the house that is about 7ft x 5ft. Enough room that I can shut the door while I'm in it and hide from my wife and kid lol... I don't have the stand yet, bug I was thinking of constructing a steel one. I saw a nice thread on this that I'm following now. So I definitely like the design of the sump but I don't want it to be too small. Would I have to build one larger or have one made? Also, an you all tell me why you would want a larger sump? What exactly does it do for you the larger it is? I had thought it was more for housing filtration (natural and not)?

05/11/2014, 03:40 PM	#10
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	A larger sump allows for more equipment, bigger equipment. Other types of equipment you may want to add are reactors in the future, bigger/better skimmer. Also an ATO and other stuff. Also it allows for a larger fuge to allow for growth of pods and macro alge to combat any algae growing in your sump. A smaller sump is going to make access difficult in it also. It adds to the total volume of the system and stability. If you dont have a stand yet, Id say make the sump and then design the stand around that. A 75 gallon tank would make a nice size sump and might even be cheaper to make then to buy a premade sump.

05/11/2014, 03:41 PM	#11
mlsund Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 88	your sump aerates the tank, removes ammonia, captures detritus with filter socks and gives you a place to clean the water... if the only goal of your sump is to remove the ammonia and trap detritus then maybe if you want extended time in a small sump with a really large tank you have to think about the tank turnover.. __________________ Here we are again...

05/11/2014, 04:09 PM	#16
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	So what I am hearing is that the bigger the sump then definitely the more things that can go into it to aid in reducing the chemicals. Also, from what I have read. Algae is actually a good thing to have... Just not pretty, so we make a safe haven for it in the sump and keep it out of the tank (or try to) lol... Is it possible to use two sumps? Or more importantly would it be beneficial in any way? Maybe everything from one being pumped into the other instead of back to the tank. And from the second sump up to the tank. Or.... When the water leaves the tank it is split between the two sumps. Gone through the process and then returned to the tank?

05/11/2014, 04:29 PM	#21
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	Well I need live fish.... Or else my wife will kill me.

05/11/2014, 04:30 PM	#22
mlsund Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 88	he he he... especially at 30 bucks a pop... __________________ Here we are again...

05/11/2014, 04:31 PM	#23
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	Any recommendations on size and styles of the sump for the size tank I mentioned? I like the style of the sump that I asked about. It seems to increase the flow of the sump a little since the water goes into two areas of it at the same time.

05/11/2014, 04:39 PM	#25
mlsund Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 88	No clue, Id see how much i could get for the old one and sink that into a new one... __________________ Here we are again...