Nitrate bucket ideas...let me have it!

[enforcer8621]

So, I'm tired of high nitrates in my biocube. I skim, I TRY not to overfeed, I do weekly water changes, but nitrates keep rising. While reading Anthony Calfo's "Book on Coral Propagation" (awesome read until the Library required it back and I can't get it for another 6 months) I read his concept of a remote deep sand bed. I love the idea and want to implement it into my tank. Let me give you my ideas and I want you to help me improve it.

I have a biocube 29 sitting center on a desk I have room for a 3-5 gallon bucket to set on the floor directly under the tank. I have a panel that would hide the bucket. I'm thinking of using uniseals and a bucket with a "gamma lid". I could run a small pump from the back of the biocube into the bucket nearly full with sand, and the water would return to the back. I have several concerns and questions.

1. I would worry about eventual leakage due to constant pressure on the bucket if the pump had to push the water from the tank to the bucket, then back up to the tank. The bucket would be approximately 4' below the top of the tank. This would essentially be a DIY canister filter, where the canister is full of sand. Would some other container work better? Perhaps a Jerry can?

2. How much would this help cool my tank as I currently have been having trouble keeping it below 81 degrees?

3. Calfo suggests a 5 gallon bucket for 100 gallon tank. Because I only have a biocube, a 3 gallon bucket would suffice correct?

4. How much flow would be recommended for this?

3. If anyone has input or better ideas, please let me know. Thanks

[Sethjamto]

I would say that you have a recipe for a flood if you are wanting to pump water from the tank to the bucket. I would try to incorporate some sort of overflow from the tank to the bucket and then a pump to return it back to the tank. Safer this way IMO.

[enforcer8621]

Originally Posted by Sethjamto

I would say that you have a recipe for a flood if you are wanting to pump water from the tank to the bucket. I would try to incorporate some sort of overflow from the tank to the bucket and then a pump to return it back to the tank. Safer this way IMO.

I agree and flooding was my biggest concern. I may make a simple overflow and run it back up.

[enforcer8621]

What if I used a length of 4" pvc? Maybe 4' tall. Seal it and have an inlet-outlet on the same side at the top. No leaks and I can hide it behind my stand. Would I have enough flow?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Sethjamto

I would say that you have a recipe for a flood if you are wanting to pump water from the tank to the bucket. I would try to incorporate some sort of overflow from the tank to the bucket and then a pump to return it back to the tank. Safer this way IMO.

You do not want to drop a drain line from the DT into a bucket DSB. It may be 'safer' as you say, but it will pollute the sand bed. This is the main reason that this method is not used inline with the main flow of the tank.

[enforcer8621]

The tank is only 4 months old. Will the nitrates begin to fall as the tank matures? Would I be better to carbon dose?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by enforcer8621

What if I used a length of 4" pvc? Maybe 4' tall. Seal it and have an inlet-outlet on the same side at the top. No leaks and I can hide it behind my stand. Would I have enough flow?

Insufficient surface area, and this is not how the method is intended to be set up and run, and it will not work the same.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=595109

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by enforcer8621

The tank is only 4 months old. Will the nitrates begin to fall as the tank matures? Would I be better to carbon dose?

Heck the tank is not even broke in yet, so your parameters will be all over the place. Tanks really don't start settling in till around 9 - 12 months. In a 29 gallon tank, they will always be all over the place, and why they are not recommended, except for advanced hobbyists that have a year or two worth of experience dealing with tank problems. It is a common preception that smaller tanks will be easier to deal with, but it is exactly opposite. Beginners should not consider anything smaller than a 40 gallon tank, and most 'nicer' critters cannot be kept in such a small tank (29 gallon) It is doubtful that your nitrate production will decrease with time however. As you have found out, water changes do not get the job done either; limiting food is not really the answer either, as starving your critters cannot have anything but a negative effect.

You have not provided details on your system, which limits the amount of help available, if you are wanting sound advice. Everything in the system works together, and the system is only as good as its weakest link...what is the weak link? Skimmer? Not having sump? Mechanical filtration? Too low a flow rate, so particulates are falling out of the water column and polluting the water?

A bucket DSB will drop your nitrates to near zero in a short period of time, with little or no risk. That could well be your answer, but the DSB will not deal with excessive dissolved organics. You want the organics removed from the system, not processed into other compounds via decomposition. Strong 'protein skimming' will remove a certain amount (~30%) of certain organic compounds. GAC will remove a certain amount of certain organic compounds. Generally one or both of these methods combined with a bucket DSB will tame a tank, in terms of nitrate control. Down the road to maturity, increasing the number of corals with photosynthetic symbiotes, will also lower nitrates.

Carbon dosing will make your system dependent on an artificially driven process, utilizes the wrong type of bacteria, and causes damage to the natural process. (Heterotrophic rather than autotrophic.) This also makes the system less capable of dealing with sudden increases in waste byproducts beacuse the autotrophic bacteria will be out competed by the heterotrophic, and the populations will decrease. Autotophic processing is 100 times more efficient than heterotrophic processing. Cessation of dosing could cause the system to crash. Vodka is for drinking, not putting in your tank.

[enforcer8621]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Heck the tank is not even broke in yet, so your parameters will be all over the place. Tanks really don't start settling in till around 9 - 12 months. In a 29 gallon tank, they will always be all over the place, and why they are not recommended, except for advanced hobbyists that have a year or two worth of experience dealing with tank problems. It is a common preception that smaller tanks will be easier to deal with, but it is exactly opposite. Beginners should not consider anything smaller than a 40 gallon tank, and most 'nicer' critters cannot be kept in such a small tank (29 gallon) It is doubtful that your nitrate production will decrease with time however. As you have found out, water changes do not get the job done either; limiting food is not really the answer either, as starving your critters cannot have anything but a negative effect.

You have not provided details on your system, which limits the amount of help available, if you are wanting sound advice. Everything in the system works together, and the system is only as good as its weakest link...what is the weak link? Skimmer? Not having sump? Mechanical filtration? Too low a flow rate, so particulates are falling out of the water column and polluting the water?

A bucket DSB will drop your nitrates to near zero in a short period of time, with little or no risk. That could well be your answer, but the DSB will not deal with excessive dissolved organics. You want the organics removed from the system, not processed into other compounds via decomposition. Strong 'protein skimming' will remove a certain amount (~30%) of certain organic compounds. GAC will remove a certain amount of certain organic compounds. Generally one or both of these methods combined with a bucket DSB will tame the tank, in terms of nitrate control.

Carbon dosing will make your system dependent on an artificially driven process, utilizes the wrong type of bacteria, and causes damage to the natural process. (Heterotrophic rather than autotrophic.) This also makes the system less capable of dealing with sudden increases in waste byproducts beacuse the autotrophic bacteria will be out competed by the heterotrophic, and the populations will decrease. Autotophic processing is 100 times more efficient than heterotrophic processing. Cessation of dosing could cause the system to crash. Vodka is for drinking, not putting in your tank.

Thanks! I'm back in the game after a 5 year break and I'm still trying to remember half of what I knew and trying to forget bad habits. The only two parameters out of norm is nitrates and my temp gets around 82 on occasion.
I've increased flow and I did have a bit of detritus that now appears to have cleared up. I moved the skimmer and it appears to be skimming better. I'm using purigen and chemi pure blue.

[uncleof6]

Don't change too much at once. High nitrates have myriad of causes. That said, a bucket DSB will drop them to, or to near, zero in a month or so....

The high temp will lower you dissolved oxygen saturation level, (oxygen available) and increase metabolic rates (increase oxygen demand) which generally is not a good thing at all.

[kaskiles]

Are there any visible signs of a nutrient problem; algae taking over, corals dying?
If not, I think I'd ride it out and see if the nitrate self heals.
Also, how are your phosphate levels?

[uncleof6]

Other than algae blooms, spreading all over the place, there really are not signs indicating elevated nutrient problems. On the other hand, excessive dissolved organics, are the real problem in marine systems. Photosynthetic corals (actually the symbiotes) utilize nitrates as part of their metabolic process. Concerning coral mortality, and high nutrient levels, the conclusions are fairly inconclusive...also it needs to be understood that most folks will blame anything and everything, for tank problems, mortality rates, and growth rates, other than their own implementations of methods, and husbandry.

I have never bothered to be concerned with phosphates. Phosphate is simply the current bad guy, due to marketing hype for phosphate reducing media that requires periodic replacement (read $.) Phosphorous is a necessary element for life. Limiting or reducing phosphates can/may have a negative impact on the health of your system. Considering there are several things involved with algae control, it is only necessary to limit one thing. By far the simplest aside from lack of light, using natural methods alone, is to control nitrates.