Do people struggle with LED more because of the customizability?

[ktownhero]

A lot of people seem to have trouble using LEDs and there are probably a variety of reasons. But I also noticed that due to how easily LEDs can be customized (color and intensity), people often have incredibly complex ramping profiles to the point where it may take up to a solid 50% of their total lights-on time. But not only in overall intensity but in adjusting individual color profiles almost continuously throughout the day.

Do you think that part of the reason we see issues with LEDs is due to the fact that these complex ramps are used on a day-to-day basis? Whereas with other lights you often just have more of an on-off scenario during which time your color and intensity remains consistent.

[Wazzel]

IMO the biggest problem with LEDs are the users, not the hardware. The setting get tinkered with to much, running the intensity to low, goofball settings, etc.

I do run LEDs. My ramp setting are super simple and working up to full power slowly. We will see how my ideas turn out long term. I have decided to stay the course on what I started. Since I started from frags it should be a good evaluation of how well things performs.

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

Do you think that part of the reason we see issues with LEDs is due to the fact that these complex ramps are used on a day-to-day basis? Whereas with other lights you often just have more of an on-off scenario during which time your color and intensity remains consistent.

No. The sun isn't binary, it rises and falls.


The issue is more likely our lack of total understanding of the needs of the animals we keep.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by gbru316

No. The sun isn't binary, it rises and falls.


The issue is more likely our lack of total understanding of the needs of the animals we keep.

The sun's intensity varies parabolicly from sun up to sundown and the color temp stays relatively constant. When setting up an LED operation map that would be kept in mind.

There is also a lack of understanding on how to operate some equipment.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by gbru316

No. The sun isn't binary, it rises and falls.


The issue is more likely our lack of total understanding of the needs of the animals we keep.

Actually, the sun doesn't rise and fall, we spin around it :P

Seriously though, we can't mimic the sun no matter how hard we try so I don't even want to derail the thread in that direction. And sunlight doesn't change as much as you think and it is also VERY intense for much longer than what we use on our aquariums. And that's kind of my point. I wonder if people's naive attempt at mimicking the sun with complex color/intensity profiles is actually their demise?

For example, I have seen ramp profiles where people have like 3 hours of ramping up, then 2-4 hours of intense light, and then 3 hours of ramping down. The sun is not that gentle

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

The sun's intensity varies parabolicly from sun up to sundown and the color temp stays relatively constant. When setting up an LED operation map that would be kept in mind.

There is also a lack of understanding on how to operate some equipment.

I'm no physicist, but wouldn't the different refractive properties of each individual wavelength combined with the differing attenuation of said wavelengths due to seawater, cause a varying spectrum at twilight/dawn/dusk (where the angle of incidence is highest)?

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

For example, I have seen ramp profiles where people have like 3 hours of ramping up, then 2-4 hours of intense light, and then 3 hours of ramping down.

Many people report having to turn their lights DOWN when switching to LED fixtures, and it's not uncommon for people to only run metal halides 3-4 hours a day.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by gbru316

I'm no physicist, but wouldn't the different refractive properties of each individual wavelength combined with the differing attenuation of said wavelengths due to seawater, cause a varying spectrum at twilight/dawn/dusk (where the angle of incidence is highest)?

I have no clue, not my area of expertise. AFAIK the sunlight is the same color all day and the atmosphere diffuses it for a more even distribution. What I am referring to is dropping out or spiking different color temps during the photo period. It looks wrong to me.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by gbru316

Many people report having to turn their lights DOWN when switching to LED fixtures, and it's not uncommon for people to only run metal halides 3-4 hours a day.

That does not mean that they should stay down. It would be like switching from T-5 to MH and only running the MH for 1 hour a day without ever increasing the run time. Corals need time to adjust to different light source

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

I have no clue, not my area of expertise. AFAIK the sunlight is the same color all day and the atmosphere diffuses it for a more even distribution. What I am referring to is dropping out or spiking different color temps during the photo period. It looks wrong to me.

Right. When I dive, the sunlight looks the same for the 7am dive as it does the 4pm dive. I think many dramatically overestimate how much the spectrum changes throughout the day.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

Right. When I dive, the sunlight looks the same for the 7am dive as it does the 4pm dive. I think many dramatically overestimate how much the spectrum changes throughout the day.

I have noticed a difference in intensity between a early morning/late afternoon dive and a midday dive, but not really a color difference.

[ptreef]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

For example, I have seen ramp profiles where people have like 3 hours of ramping up, then 2-4 hours of intense light, and then 3 hours of ramping down. The sun is not that gentle

Thats what I do works great on my frag tank.
3 hr ramp....4 hrs intense, 2 hr ramp down!


DT is still MH & t-5 systems tied together. SPS dominate but have zoas, lps and few softies in both. Frag was MH & t-5 till 8 mos ago.

[gbru316]

Our eyes are not exactly the best tool to be using to determine spectrum shifts, especially with no reference.

Just trying to (mis?)apply my basic knowledge of light, optics and electromagnetics obtained in college.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by ptreef

Thats what I do works great on my frag tank.
3 hr ramp....4 hrs intense, 2 hr ramp down!


DT is still MH & t-5 systems tied together. SPS dominate but have zoas, lps and few softies in both. Frag was MH & t-5 till 8 mos ago.

Nice. And I assume you wouldn't have it on a frag tank if you weren't getting growth. Now, I wonder, do you ramp the overall intensity or do you manage each color individually?

[Wazzel]

I run 14 hours of total on time. 2.5 hour sunrise, 2.5 hour late morning increase, 4 hour full power, 2.5 hour late afternoon, 2.5 hour sunset. I am at about 75% of actual fixture full power. I am on a several month ramp up to get there. I think by the end of October I will be at 100% unless I add a new coral.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by gbru316

Our eyes are not exactly the best tool to be using to determine spectrum shifts, especially with no reference.

Just trying to (mis?)apply my basic knowledge of light, optics and electromagnetics obtained in college.

There is lots of good information on how the spectrum varies in water with depth. I have not seen anything on if it varies with the angle of the sun. Honestly I do not know, again not my area of expertise.

[ptreef]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

Nice. And I assume you wouldn't have it on a frag tank if you weren't getting growth. Now, I wonder, do you ramp the overall intensity or do you manage each color individually?

Yeah I get about same nice colors with the LED's, a few better colors and a few better with the MH's. In general its a wash. I would say I get better growth out of the metal halide & t-5.

LED's are full spectrum. Blue channel & whites & colored led's
I ramp each channel somewhat together and max ~ 80%. LED's are about 20" AWL for spread. tank is 30" wide & only 12" deep
120* optics one edge leds & colored 90* on rest.

The layout was a somewhat custom

Ch1:
8 -6500k white & 7- 14,000K white, 9 460 Blue, 2 500 green & 3 660 red


Ch 2:
22-450 Royal Blue, 7-410 UV

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

I have no clue, not my area of expertise. AFAIK the sunlight is the same color all day and the atmosphere diffuses it for a more even distribution. What I am referring to is dropping out or spiking different color temps during the photo period. It looks wrong to me.

It seems like the spectrum (and therefore color temperature) DOES vary over the course of the day.

Link

Many of these factors act on specific regions of wavelengths, so the terrestrial solar spectrum varies over a day not only by a general scaling factor, but in shape.

This puts high demands on defining a reference spectrum, as will be outlined on the next page.

It is important to note that this is the terrestrial spectrum. However, since similar factors that cause terrestrial variance are present underwater, it is fairly safe to assume a shift happens there as well.

I think, though, that the magnitude of the shift present in some aquariums is much greater than the magnitude of natural terrestrial shift. But I'm still not convinced that this is a major cause of LED lighting issues. Through the course of my research on LEDs in aquariums, I've hypothesized that it's about adequately providing certain key wavelengths that are necessary for zooxenthellae to properly synthesize certain molecules that aid in key life processes. One of these processes is a key photoregulator for the coral. If this is malfunctioning, it will be very hard for the coral to regulate it's energy intake which will cause bleaching (a common side effect of switching to an LED fixture).

[AdamNC]

Still on the slow acclimation on mine, bought my new LED in early July. On mine I run 1 1/2 hours ramp up, 8 hours full(50%/60%) and then 1 1/2 hours ramp down. Seems to work well for me.

[am.gee]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

I have noticed a difference in intensity between a early morning/late afternoon dive and a midday dive, but not really a color difference.

hi,
thats because of the different angle the light penetrates the water over the day. this is something very difficult to simulate with our tank lightings.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by gbru316

It seems like the spectrum (and therefore color temperature) DOES vary over the course of the day.

Link



It is important to note that this is the terrestrial spectrum. However, since similar factors that cause terrestrial variance are present underwater, it is fairly safe to assume a shift happens there as well.

I think, though, that the magnitude of the shift present in some aquariums is much greater than the magnitude of natural terrestrial shift. But I'm still not convinced that this is a major cause of LED lighting issues. Through the course of my research on LEDs in aquariums, I've hypothesized that it's about adequately providing certain key wavelengths that are necessary for zooxenthellae to properly synthesize certain molecules that aid in key life processes. One of these processes is a key photoregulator for the coral. If this is malfunctioning, it will be very hard for the coral to regulate it's energy intake which will cause bleaching (a common side effect of switching to an LED fixture).

Honestly, I do not have the background to understand that paper. I think you are on point that the natural shifts are not as extreme to what I see in some LED settings.

As far as bleaching, I think that is user error. If you swap from tubes to MH and run them the same you will bleach the coral. LEDs are their own beast and swapping requires acclimation to the new light source. If what you propose is true then that would happen to everyone and it does not. I have yet to bleach a frag and I have gotten some from MH lit tanks.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

Do you think that part of the reason we see issues with LEDs is due to the fact that these complex ramps are used on a day-to-day basis? Whereas with other lights you often just have more of an on-off scenario during which time your color and intensity remains consistent.

Yes, part of the problem is giving the user ultimate control.
The other problem that has nothing to do with the user is the terrible coverage and the associated pinpoint light source. You can see it in the graphs on the manufacturer's websites. Intense, high par directly under the bulb/puck and then a dramatic drop as you go out from there. I think all manufacturer suggestions of how many lamps are needed is about half of the reality. At least.

I think companies like Lani that are attempting to provide full coverage over the tank are moving in the correct direction.

[gbru316]

I do agree that more emitters is a better idea. You get better coverage, use less electricity and extend the life of each emitter because you don't need to run them at 100% rated current.

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by am.gee

hi,
thats because of the different angle the light penetrates the water over the day. this is something very difficult to simulate with our tank lightings.

You could probably accomplish this given your DIY skills and massive tank

I'd like to see you incorporate a parabolic track and high power puck along with your real time weather. You'd probably need some pretty tight optics.

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Yes, part of the problem is giving the user ultimate control.
The other problem that has nothing to do with the user is the terrible coverage and the associated pinpoint light source. You can see it in the graphs on the manufacturer's websites. Intense, high par directly under the bulb/puck and then a dramatic drop as you go out from there. I think all manufacturer suggestions of how many lamps are needed is about half of the reality. At least.

I think companies like Lani that are attempting to provide full coverage over the tank are moving in the correct direction.

Totally agree about the spread issue. So far it is the one thing I do not like on my Hydra52. I think the double row puck on the Sol were a better layout, or at least like the concept since I did not ever run a Sol. There are still the hot spots, but spreading them out should help.