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Unread 06/25/2015, 07:35 PM   #1
ZeeSparrow
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Quarantine for a month - but it wasn't enough

I bought two clownfish a little over a month ago. I did TTM on them both, then kept them in a 10 gallon uncycled QT. I used filter floss in HOB filter with an airstone and heater, changing floss almost daily and water every few days (whenever ammonia showed on the badge). They were there for 16 days so I had them in QT for a month before putting them into DT.

The day after putting them into the DT, I noticed the larger of the two was opening and closing her mouth repeatedly. She was still somewhat active, definitely eating. Until this morning. She had finally moved out from the corner of the tank where she's been since I put her in (when not hiding behind the rocks) and was swimming about. I was happy to see her finally exploring a bit, though she wasn't interested in food. I wasn't too concerned as they'd had a biggish dinner last night. When I left for work a couple hours later, she was lying on the sandbed under an overhang of rocks.

When I came home from work, she was still lying underneath the rocks. Shoot! Uh oh... Obviously gasping, too; that's new. I filled my 5 gallon tank with some of the water prepared for the water change I intended to do tonight. pH and temp good, salinity at 1.021 (DT is 1.025). Airstone and heater in place. Netted her out of DT and set into QT, where she immediately sank to the bottom. Sideways. Swam up to the top, but was upside down and sank to the bottom again. On her side. Gasping.

I had called the LFS where I bought her, explained the symptoms I had seen and she gave me some recommendations over the phone... but it was too late.

20 minutes later she was gone.

After 4 weeks of QT, less than a week in the DT and she's gone.

This sucks.

Now I just pray my other little guy is okay. He seems to be... so far.... My next fish are in QT already (picked them up a couple days ago because the clowns were doing well ). They're going to have to get comfy, as they won't be seeing the DT for a while.


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Unread 06/25/2015, 07:42 PM   #2
gone fishin
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Sorry to hear about your fish. Did you notice anything else other than what you described. Faded color splotchy looking.

A little late but if your LFS runs low dose copper in their tanks then about the 30 day mark other things often present themselves. I will go 6-7 weeks total QT. Good luck with your other guys.


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Unread 06/25/2015, 07:55 PM   #3
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The parameters in your display were the same as QT? The timing seems too coincidental that there wasn't something between the two tanks that caused it.

Any other fish in the DT before the clowns?

I'm sorry about your fish. Sucks when trying to be so careful.


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Unread 06/25/2015, 08:36 PM   #4
ZeeSparrow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gone fishin View Post
Sorry to hear about your fish. Did you notice anything else other than what you described. Faded color splotchy looking.



A little late but if your LFS runs low dose copper in their tanks then about the 30 day mark other things often present themselves. I will go 6-7 weeks total QT. Good luck with your other guys.

Thanks. No splotches until tonight. Had stringy poop after TTM which is why I did prasipro. Had read that could be from mysis diet so was also feeding pellets after that. Should have done two doses though. Would have given me a few more days in qt and then maybe this would have presented before DT.

The LFS is closed now but I'll call her again tomorrow and ask about the copper. Will also call other LFS where I got the two currently in qt and check them as well. I am pretty sure they both have snails/shrimp in the same tanks though so wouldn't that hurt them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchillo View Post
The parameters in your display were the same as QT? The timing seems too coincidental that there wasn't something between the two tanks that caused it.

Any other fish in the DT before the clowns?

I'm sorry about your fish. Sucks when trying to be so careful.

Only difference between DT and qt is nitrates. Salinity and temp matched. Did not check pH... But checked new saltwater and tank tonight after and they match. Oh, used tank water for water changes in qt the last week so should have been good I think. Maybe I missed something though.

Clowns are first fish in the tank. Was cycled before I bought them so had another month (with ghost feeding and coral feeding during that time).


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Unread 06/25/2015, 09:50 PM   #5
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Quarantine for a month - but it wasn't enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeSparrow View Post
Thanks. No splotches until tonight. Had stringy poop after TTM which is why I did prasipro. Had read that could be from mysis diet so was also feeding pellets after that. Should have done two doses though. Would have given me a few more days in qt and then maybe this would have presented before DT.

The LFS is closed now but I'll call her again tomorrow and ask about the copper. Will also call other LFS where I got the two currently in qt and check them as well. I am pretty sure they both have snails/shrimp in the same tanks though so wouldn't that hurt them?




Only difference between DT and qt is nitrates. Salinity and temp matched. Did not check pH... But checked new saltwater and tank tonight after and they match. Oh, used tank water for water changes in qt the last week so should have been good I think. Maybe I missed something though.

Clowns are first fish in the tank. Was cycled before I bought them so had another month (with ghost feeding and coral feeding during that time).


Sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how devastating that would be.

If you don't mind me asking what did you use for your filter floss? The pillow stuffing material from walmart?


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Unread 06/25/2015, 10:01 PM   #6
ZeeSparrow
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Thanks. Yes the pillow stuffing. Got it from a craft store though.


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Unread 06/25/2015, 10:25 PM   #7
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72 days is the advised length for QT. Sorry for the loss.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 01:04 AM   #8
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Sorry to hear.

However, just to clarify, this is not a failure of QT. There are things that can outlast a month in QT, sure (disease-wise), but the death of the Clown in this case would be due to the transfer most likely. Not sure what it is, but would have most likely had something to do with something about the DT.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 02:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkeracer619 View Post
72 days is the advised length for QT. Sorry for the loss.
Why is this??


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Unread 06/26/2015, 04:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchillo View Post
The parameters in your display were the same as QT? The timing seems too coincidental that there wasn't something between the two tanks that caused it.

Any other fish in the DT before the clowns?

I'm sorry about your fish. Sucks when trying to be so careful.
Good call I sometimes overlook things. I just assumed they parameters were the same for the DT & QT.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 05:00 AM   #11
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I suggest one month after TTM for observation. No copper or other treatment unless a condition exhibits symptoms.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 06:21 AM   #12
ZeeSparrow
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Thanks everyone.

There were no fish in the tank when I put them in. I used DT water for the last two 50% W/C in the QT tank the week before they were moved. Other than the opening and closing mouth, there were no spots, no fading coloration, no splotches... she was still eating, did not appear lethargic or anything else until yesterday. She did not eat in the AM but was swimming around the tank, then lay down on the sand under the rocks as if to sleep (only blues were on as I leave very early). When I came home, she was still there and died within an hour.

My suspicion is she had this (brook, perhaps?) but it didn't show itself while in QT. Had I kept them in QT for another week or two, it's possible it would have shown up there. Or maybe it wouldn't have shown until the move to the DT. She didn't like moving. (By the way, I used a small plastic container for all TTM and QT to DT moves.)

I plan on QT for at least 6 weeks from now on, as Steve suggested above. TTM and then a month afterward. I don't know what else I could do differently.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 08:23 AM   #13
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Any possibility that there's already some pathogen or parasite IN your DT? Using its discard water for water changes in QT could infect the fish.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 08:42 AM   #14
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If you do suspect brook, keep a very close eye on your remaining clown. Unfortunately we sometimes cannot figure out why a fish died. It certainly sounds from your description your QT was decent with the exception of the time line.

FWIW I like to use a square collander for transfers works very nicely. With a little practice the fish does not know they were moved.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 10:02 AM   #15
ZeeSparrow
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Quote:
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Any possibility that there's already some pathogen or parasite IN your DT? Using its discard water for water changes in QT could infect the fish.
Didn't consider before (or I wouldn't have used it), but something could have come in on a frag or a snail. With no other fish in the DT before adding the clowns, that's the only way. I will not be using DT water for QT from now on, just in case.

Quote:
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If you do suspect brook, keep a very close eye on your remaining clown. Unfortunately we sometimes cannot figure out why a fish died. It certainly sounds from your description your QT was decent with the exception of the time line.

FWIW I like to use a square collander for transfers works very nicely. With a little practice the fish does not know they were moved.

I tried to find a square colander but was unsuccessful, so using a square Tupperware-type container. The first transfer was a little more stressful as it was from a bucket with no corners, but after that I didn't chase them around, just slowly cornered them and scooped them right up. Draining the water out of it seemed to be the only part that one didn't like. I'll cut some slits in the bottom to drain the water out. That will help, I think.

I am definitely keeping an eye on the remaining little one. He still appears to be okay, hanging out by the mag float as usual, swimming very actively. I turned everything off this morning to make sure he got food (pellets for breakfast) and try to get a good picture of him (unsuccessful). It's difficult to see anything on a 1" long fish but he still looks healthy to me. No spots, etc that I can see. If anything appears, he's headed straight to QT (separate tank from current QT inhabitants). I may try to convince my husband I need to get another tank during the Petco sale next month. Trying to manage TTM with a HT at the same time with only two available tanks will be crazy. Not to mention available buckets, etc. Ack.

My medication list is short - only have prazipro now.. I found a helpful list from this post ... any recommendations on where to find all of that? Are there particular brands that are more effective, or specific ones to get FIRST if you can't buy them all at once?


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Unread 06/26/2015, 10:07 AM   #16
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It has been awhile since I purchased meds but I believe I got most of them from DRs F&S. I have not used CP but I believe folks are using the ich shield powder which has CP.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 10:14 AM   #17
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A square collander can be found here or here. However there are certainly more available. Not as useful with pails but very useful with small tanks. With a bit of practice, the fish almost don't know they have been transferred.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 11:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
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With a bit of practice, the fish almost don't know they have been transferred.
Hmm.....this is purely speculative in my opinion. I have definitely found TTM to be stressful on fish, however no more stressful than any other treatment. In my last transfer I witnessed heavy breathing, laying sideways in the new tank and loss of colouration, the fish were definitely scared and I wasn't messing around, the fish were caught quickly and out of water no more than 10 seconds. TTM is a necessary practice in certain situations so there is not much we can do but make it as easy as we can on fish but to suggest there is little to no stress at all on them I would say is very unlikely.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 11:55 AM   #19
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Surprisingly to me, TTM transfers really were no issue for my clowns. The transfer to the DT was different for some reason. More time out of the water perhaps, along with more flow than exists in the qt... And possible contamination already.

Anyway. Just placed an order at Drs F&S for furan2 and seachem paraguard, along with selcon and garlic.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 12:02 PM   #20
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Surprisingly to me, TTM transfers really were no issue for my clowns.
While I'm not doubting what you say at all, clownfish are on the 'hardier' side of the fish we keep. When we start doing TTM on Achilles Tangs, Regal Angels, Copperband Butterflyfish etc, this is where I think you'll notice signs of stress more.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 12:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snorvich View Post
A square collander can be found here or here. However there are certainly more available. Not as useful with pails but very useful with small tanks. With a bit of practice, the fish almost don't know they have been transferred.
I basically have that second one from Kohls for my 20L

Has made the transferring pretty easy with my 2 pj cardinals. The little one I get in 2 seconds and the bigger one is better at getting away and hiding behind the sponge filter but still fairly easy. Highly recommend this for TTM.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 12:55 PM   #22
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Why is this??
Life cycle of certain diseases, especially ones masked by copper in the holding tanks at the LFS.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 01:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Hmm.....this is purely speculative in my opinion. I have definitely found TTM to be stressful on fish, however no more stressful than any other treatment. In my last transfer I witnessed heavy breathing, laying sideways in the new tank and loss of colouration, the fish were definitely scared and I wasn't messing around, the fish were caught quickly and out of water no more than 10 seconds. TTM is a necessary practice in certain situations so there is not much we can do but make it as easy as we can on fish but to suggest there is little to no stress at all on them I would say is very unlikely.
We each have our own opinion as to what stressed is I suppose. I can just say from my experiences the fishes do not seem to be stressed and freaked out while in TT or QT.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 03:53 PM   #24
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Sorry to hear for your loss. Just a thought...but I read that you performed water changes every few days when you noticed the ammonia badge display a reading.

I believe The badge mentiones that that is a delay before a reading can stabilize., which initially can be a long time. I have used them in the past and have gotten a positive ammonia reading before the badge even registers on the wheel.


Also....is it possible that the clowns were exposed to ammonia during the TTM? We're you using Prime or a throw away cycled medium for each of the transfers, to help combat ammonia.

Just trying to help and retrace any possibilities.


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Unread 06/26/2015, 04:12 PM   #25
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Thank you. Yes I used prime during TTM and the following QT with filter floss in the HOB (throwaway almost every morning).


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