Confusion about cycling my tank

[ReefMagician]

Hey guys,

I recently setup a 125g in my living room ands am in the process of cycling the tank. Here are the steps I have taken:

1. Friday (4/8/2016) I added live sand and put a couple of pieces of live rock in the tank. Skimmer is off, mechanical filtration is off.
2. Saturday (4/9/2016) I continued to let the tank run without fish.
3. Sunday (4/10/2016) I tested the water: Nitrate: 0, Nitrite: 0, Alkalinity: 190, PH: 8.3, Ammonia: 0ppm. Based on these results I added StartSmatrt Complete to the tank. I also added 2 clown fish.
4. Monday (4/11/2016): I tested the water again. Results where the same.
5. Today (4/12/2016): I tested the water again. Results are shown below.


So I am just wondering where I am at in the cycling process and when i can add a clean up crew.

[nereefpat]

You'll have to add some nitrogen to the tank to start the cycle. Some people ghost feed, or add some ammonia...or for some reason people like to use cocktail shrimp.

You will see ammonia go up, then go away. Then nitrite do the same thing. Then nitrates will slowly increase over time

[JammyBirch]

ah hmmm...where to start. Let's hope you are a reef magician after all...

If you've never measured ammonia, nitrite or nitrate then you haven't started a cycle yet. A tank that size could take 6 weeks to cycle depending on the amount of rock you have.

You could read the sticky at the top of the forum for the details but cycling is pretty straight forward.

All you need to do is introduce ammonia and measure your water parameters.

You can add ammonia via ammonia chloride drops, a small piece of shrimp or putting fish in there, which is not the best choice by the way.

You're looking for ~2ppm of ammonia at least and will watch that drop as nitrite increases over a few days.

The ammonia will go to zero, nitrite will still be present. Nitrite will start to decrease as nitrate increases...

Once you only have nitrate, meaning 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite you're done.

You can't do anything until you go through this, you're on the hunt for ammonia man. I'm wondering if those clowns will die at this point, they are in for a not so fun ride.

[ReefMagician]

Doesn't fish waste introduce ammonia to the water? Why wouldn't fish waste be my primary source of ammonia?

[nereefpat]

Ah, good catch, jammy. I didn't see the clowns. They will provide the ammonia. Hopefully the tough little buggers make it through. You aren't seeing levels yet, since you just have two little fish in a 125. How many pounds of live rock? Was it already cured?

[CStrickland]

You made a mistake when you added fish to a tank that isn't cycled. You have two choices: remove the fish and cycle the tank (better), or try to cycle without killing the fish.

The whole purpose of cycling is to grow a population of bacteria that will process the ammonia that your fish produce. Ammonia is a toxic form of nitrogen, the bacteria convert it into non-toxic forms. So if you add this food source for a while before the fish, you can get the converting bacteria in place to keep the water healthy. If not, the fish are trapped breathing their own toxic poop and pee, it burns their gills and causes long term damage even if it doesn't kill right away.

So you can get the fish out of there and proceed with the ammonia adding tactics described above: feeding the tank ammonia or food that will decay into ammonia until it is strong enough to handle the fish waste. Or you can try to keep the fish alive while they produce that ammonia, until the bacteria catches up.

The products you added, bacteria starter and live sand, claim to add bacteria to give you a jumpstart. That may be why you don't have any ammonia in the water now. But it could also be that the ammonia is going to spike soon once the clowns waste builds up. Another product called Prime can keep the ammonia non-toxic while the bacteria catch up. You can buy a seachem "ammonia badge" to stick on the glass that changes color to tell you when to add more Prime to keep the water safe. But really it's better to get the fish out and start fresh the right way.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by nereefpat

Ah, good catch, jammy. I didn't see the clowns. They will provide the ammonia. Hopefully the tough little buggers make it through. You aren't seeing levels yet, since you just have two little fish in a 125. How many pounds of live rock? Was it already cured?

It wasn't much but it was cured. the majority was dry rock. I believe about 10 pounds of live rock.

Originally Posted by CStrickland

You made a mistake when you added fish to a tank that isn't cycled. You have two choices: remove the fish and cycle the tank (better), or try to cycle without killing the fish.

The whole purpose of cycling is to grow a population of bacteria that will process the ammonia that your fish produce. Ammonia is a toxic form of nitrogen, the bacteria convert it into non-toxic forms. So if you add this food source for a while before the fish, you can get the converting bacteria in place to keep the water healthy. If not, the fish are trapped breathing their own toxic poop and pee, it burns their gills and causes long term damage even if it doesn't kill right away.

So you can get the fish out of there and proceed with the ammonia adding tactics described above: feeding the tank ammonia or food that will decay into ammonia until it is strong enough to handle the fish waste. Or you can try to keep the fish alive while they produce that ammonia, until the bacteria catches up.

The products you added, bacteria starter and live sand, claim to add bacteria to give you a jumpstart. That may be why you don't have any ammonia in the water now. But it could also be that the ammonia is going to spike soon once the clowns waste builds up. Another product called Prime can keep the ammonia non-toxic while the bacteria catch up. You can buy a seachem "ammonia badge" to stick on the glass that changes color to tell you when to add more Prime to keep the water safe. But really it's better to get the fish out and start fresh the right way.

I put the fish in based on the suggestions of my local fish store. Don't really have a second tank to put the clowns in.

[CStrickland]

Yeah, you would catch them and return them to the store for a credit. Once the tank is ready for fish you can use that credit to buy some.

[Jeff4777]

Your LFS told you to put fish in an uncycled tank without even QTing them? Lovely

You don't have to cycle a tank with fish, best of luck magician!

[Ztous]

Buy Seed or bio spira and use it liberally it will save the clowns. Alot of people here don't like the bottled bacteria but in my experience it works.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by Ztous

Buy Seed or bio spira and use it liberally it will save the clowns. Alot of people here don't like the bottled bacteria but in my experience it works.

Thanks. I'll pass by petco on my way home and grab 2 bottles. My LFS suggested the bacteria in a bottle. I have grown attached to the clowns so I won't want to lose them. I'll try bio spira and continue to test parameters. i also bought a liquid test kit.

[Brieninsac]

What's done is done, add 500 ml of Bio-spira stat.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by Brieninsac

What's done is done, add 500 ml of Bio-spira stat.

Once I add the bio-spira, what should my next step be?

[CStrickland]

I'm not sure what the biospira will do that the smartstart didnt, I think they're the same thing. Can't hurt I guess. You could keep some around just in case ammonia starts to show. Def pick up some Prime either way. That's your best ammonia protection for the fish.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

I'm not sure what the biospira will do that the smartstart didnt, I think they're the same thing. Can't hurt I guess. You could keep some around just in case ammonia starts to show. Def pick up some Prime either way. That's your best ammonia protection for the fish.

Adding more bacteria wouldn't hurt, I assume. When you say prime, you mean this:

http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcost.../seachem-prime

correct?

[Jeff4777]

Yes that is it.

But my prime bottles have always looked like:

http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-671043...keywords=prime

[CStrickland]

Yeah. My bottle looks diff, but maybe just because it's larger. That is the product. Or if they don't have that one there is another brand called Amquel

[Sk8r]

What you should have done: fill tank, add ALL your rock; turn on the heater and pump and feed the tank a micro-pinch of fishfood for 4 weeks, with no fish, no snails, no critters.

Right now, put the fish in a separate sandless, rockless tank with strong circulation and a heater, and feed them sparingly for the next four weeks. This tank will become your quarantine tank, and should never share a net, a probe, a thermometer, or wet hands with the display tank. Use it whenever you acquire a fish, and ideally two such small tanks, which you can alternately clean and use: go over to the Fish Disease forum and read up on TTM, the Tank Transfer Method of ridding fish of ich.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by Jeff4777

Yes that is it.

But my prime bottles have always looked like:

http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-671043...keywords=prime

Originally Posted by CStrickland

Yeah. My bottle looks diff, but maybe just because it's larger. That is the product. Or if they don't have that one there is another brand called Amquel

Thanks to both of you. I'll grab some on my way home from work. Since I used startsmart complete, I don't know if I should also grab more bio-spira. I might just grab the prime incase ammonia spikes out of control. I did want to ask what my next step would be though.

[JammyBirch]

Originally Posted by ReefMagician

Doesn't fish waste introduce ammonia to the water? Why wouldn't fish waste be my primary source of ammonia?

Yup fish waste is the primary source after you have a tank that can process the ammonia, the problem is the bacteria isn't there yet to convert the waste so the ammonia produced by the fish waste could poison the fish.

Clowns are tough they may make it, but they'll not be having fun while this is going down. As others have suggested get the bacteria in a bottle, that will speed things up.

I think the bigger lesson for you, as learned by most of us who have been doing this for a while have also learned the hard way, is to cross reference your LFS. Some of them want to sell fish and that's it. This is a good experience for you and you will love this hobby, once you're tank is banging on all cylinders and you're a pro you'll be able to help other too. There is a wealth of knowledge and good people willing to help, take advantage of it.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by JammyBirch

Yup fish waste is the primary source after you have a tank that can process the ammonia, the problem is the bacteria isn't there yet to convert the waste so the ammonia produced by the fish waste could poison the fish.

Clowns are tough they may make it, but they'll not be having fun while this is going down. As others have suggested get the bacteria in a bottle, that will speed things up.

I think the bigger lesson for you, as learned by most of us who have been doing this for a while have also learned the hard way, is to cross reference your LFS. Some of them want to sell fish and that's it. This is a good experience for you and you will love this hobby, once you're tank is banging on all cylinders and you're a pro you'll be able to help other too. There is a wealth of knowledge and good people willing to help, take advantage of it.

Thanks. I really appreciate the words of encouragement. I felt really bad after finding out they might die. Getting started with a reef aquarium has a lot of details and things that can be overlooked.

[JammyBirch]

You're not the first man, this is a very fun hobby and it can be frustrating getting it going. Are you keeping the fish or are you going to try and get them back to the LFS?

If you keep the fish, dose the bacteria into the tank and measure water parameters daily.

I good cycled tank should convert 2ppm of ammonia in a day or less. This is why not having the fish in there is nice. With no fish, you can test the bio filtration capability by spiking the ammonia to 2ppm and then measuring the conversion. It takes the guess work out of it and allows you to understand the capability of your system.

[ReefMagician]

Originally Posted by JammyBirch

You're not the first man, this is a very fun hobby and it can be frustrating getting it going. Are you keeping the fish or are you going to try and get them back to the LFS?

If you keep the fish, dose the bacteria into the tank and measure water parameters daily.

I good cycled tank should convert 2ppm of ammonia in a day or less. This is why not having the fish in there is nice. With no fish, you can test the bio filtration capability by spiking the ammonia to 2ppm and then measuring the conversion.

I'll probably try to keep them in there for now. I'll dose the bacteria into the tank when I get home from work tonight. I will continue to measure parameters daily. I also ordered a master test kit since the strips seem to sort of suck.

[JammyBirch]

Originally Posted by ReefMagician

I'll probably try to keep them in there for now. I'll dose the bacteria into the tank when I get home from work tonight. I will continue to measure parameters daily. I also ordered a master test kit since the strips seem to sort of suck.

lol ya they do...i like RedSea but Salifert is recommended by a lot of guys on here.

Once you get into the Coral game, i like the Hanna Checkers...pretty sweet.

Hey keep us posted on how it goes, one thing about it, dosing the bacteria will help your clowns out for sure.

[CStrickland]

Here's a link for the instant read ammonia badge http://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_L...FITKAM-vi.html They're like $5 at the store and all you have to do to test ammonia is look over at the tank. It's an excellent compliment to regular testing in a situation like this.