HELP! Frogspawn dying?

Nelee · 08/24/2016, 11:00 AM

I'm new to this. Yesterday, I bought a frogspawn. It was doing great. This morning is like dead? One of the heads is a skeleton and I only saw a tiny pice floating (like one of the tentacles). At the aquarium shop they told all my levels were ok. I have 2 A1 Prime LED lights and the tanks is a 40g breeder

Attached two pics of the frogspawn

heathlindner25 · 08/24/2016, 11:07 AM

Yes, it appears to be dying.

Nelee · 08/24/2016, 11:10 AM

What could have happened?

Does the one left could survive?

Sk8r · 08/24/2016, 11:31 AM

Can you give us specifics on your parameters---notably the temperature, salinity, exact numerical alkalinity and calcium levels?

Vadafallon · 08/24/2016, 11:32 AM

Yea it can survive. Check your nitrates, Alk and Calc and make sure your Salinity is consistent.

Nelee · 08/24/2016, 12:00 PM

Salinity: 1.020
Calcium: 400
Mag: 1410
Alkalinity: 8.3
Ammonia: 0
NO3: 40
PO4: .25
Temperature: 79.5

Yellow tang
Blue Powder Tang
2 Clownfish
hermits
snail
1 cleaner shrimp
1 fire shrimp
1 blood shrimp
1 diamond goby
1 emerald crab
1 sand starfish

billdogg · 08/24/2016, 01:06 PM

Yes it can make it, but is clearly not too happy right now. Your salinity is too low. Should be 1.024-1.026. Your magnesium is too high. Aim for 1300-1350. Your phosphate is way too high. Should be .03 or so. Not zero, but barely detectable. Nitrates are a bit on the high side as well - like PO4, not zero, but low - in the 5-10 range max.

How old is the tank, and what size? What type of lighting do you have and if adjustable, about where (intensity and color temp)?

IME, frogspawns are pretty resilient so don't give up hope. They prefer medium to low flow and the medium lighting. It may just be adjusting to your tank, but you will make it much easier on it if you bring your parameters in to check.

hth

Sk8r · 08/24/2016, 01:10 PM

Calcium --- I like 420.
Watch the shrimp: some can get nippy with a new coral.

sil40sx · 08/24/2016, 01:15 PM

Salinity is very low for a coral

Squidmotron · 08/24/2016, 02:15 PM

Note: when you raise your salinity, do it gradually.

Also note: if that is a single measurement, measure it again to be sure.

Sk8r · 08/24/2016, 02:20 PM

very, very low. Set it at 1.024. Evaporation will drive it a little higher but not out of good zone (upper limit 1.026).

I question an lfs testing your water and selling you that coral, with those test results. You need your own testing equipment, a refractometer (salinity), an alkalinity test, a calcium test, a magnesium test, ( I use Salifert) and supplements for those 3 things (I use Kent). Frog is VERY prompt to bail out of its skeleton when it doesn't like conditions.

rt67ghy · 08/24/2016, 03:05 PM

I would advise fragging the head which is healthier and dipping it in iodine for a few days. You can try dipping the dying head also and if you're lucky you may be able to save it. Frogspawn (and hammers) normally don't do too well in shipping or if kept in a bag; I believe the stress causes them to get BJD which is normally difficult to treat.

Tripod1404 · 08/24/2016, 03:23 PM

In addition to low salinity + high phosphate/nitrate, make sure the coral is not in a high flow area. In my experience frogspawns, hammers and grapes (Euphyllia sp.) do not like constant/one directional high flow.

Edges of their skeletons are pretty sharp, especially if the coral was previously kept in low flow that did not erode the sharp sides. If tentacles are constantly pressed against these edges of the skeleton by the water, they will get damaged and the coral will retract them in.

Also be careful while holding it. Their skeleton cut my finger once, it burns like hell if a open wound is stung by a coral so be careful!!!

Nelee · 08/25/2016, 07:39 AM

Thanks all

Today it looks good. (photo attached) The empty skeleton has a few tiny tentacles (about 4). Should I frag it anyway? I need to search a video of how to do it lol

Salinity 1.021
Diamond Goby jumped out of the tank- dead

Should I treat my tank with GFOs? Can I do a 20% water change to raise up the salinity?

I attach the light schedule. 2 Ai Prime Lights (tank is a 40g breeder = 36" x 24")

heathlindner25 · 08/25/2016, 08:00 AM

Looks much better

Sk8r · 08/25/2016, 10:09 AM

TO raise salinity safely, top off evaporation with salt water. Keep it at 1.024 forever. Corals need it, fish are fine with it. But also---inverts don't do well at lower salinity: I'm wondering about your salinity measuring device. Refractometer?

I'd leave the coral alone until this salinity issue is resolved. I'm not at all convinced it's brown jelly disease: the salinity issue alone could cause bailout. So can high nitrates: this coral wants no more than 5 on nitrates.

Nelee · 08/25/2016, 10:52 AM

I use Fluvial sea hydrometer

I don't sea any brown jelly thing in the coral. is just an empty head (with only 4 tiny tentacles). I didn't find the head only one tiny tentacle piece floating.

Sk8r · 08/25/2016, 10:57 AM

Uh...take a sample to the lfs and ask them what your salinity is before you do ANYTHING. Hydrometers are not easy to work well. I used one in a lab, and it (and every other one) was a pita. A refractometer (and if they sell you one, ask them to test it in the shop and be sure it's accurate) is going to save you far more in livestock and grief than its cost...which is, as equipment goes, pretty low. Be sure of your salinity first of ALL tests.

Nelee · 08/25/2016, 11:02 AM

Thanks. My kit to measure magnesium, calcium, phosphate etc... arrives on tuesday

I will buy the refractometer.

Thanks for your help and patience.

urbanknight · 08/25/2016, 11:53 AM

Nelee, @Sk8r has provided you with some good advice. Stick with what he is saying and you should be ok.

Edz2891 · 08/25/2016, 05:45 PM

Whenever I had one die off I always took some side cutters or something similar and cut the dead one off and dipped the good one and crossed my fingers. I have had good luck with this process. I don't know if that is a proper way of doing it but it has worked for me.
Good Luck however you decide to do it!!

Lsufan · 08/25/2016, 09:43 PM

Sk8r & everyone gave u excellent advice. She helps a lot of people in the new to hobby forum so I would definetly pay attention to what she says.
I don't want to be the tang police but if your lfs is giving u advice on what livestock u are purchasing I would try & find a lfs that u could trust a little better. U are going to have problems with those tangs, or any tangs in a 40 breeder.

08/24/2016, 11:31 AM	#4
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Can you give us specifics on your parameters---notably the temperature, salinity, exact numerical alkalinity and calcium levels? __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

08/24/2016, 01:06 PM	#7
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	Yes it can make it, but is clearly not too happy right now. Your salinity is too low. Should be 1.024-1.026. Your magnesium is too high. Aim for 1300-1350. Your phosphate is way too high. Should be .03 or so. Not zero, but barely detectable. Nitrates are a bit on the high side as well - like PO4, not zero, but low - in the 5-10 range max. How old is the tank, and what size? What type of lighting do you have and if adjustable, about where (intensity and color temp)? IME, frogspawns are pretty resilient so don't give up hope. They prefer medium to low flow and the medium lighting. It may just be adjusting to your tank, but you will make it much easier on it if you bring your parameters in to check. hth __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

08/24/2016, 01:10 PM	#8
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Calcium --- I like 420. Watch the shrimp: some can get nippy with a new coral. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

08/24/2016, 02:15 PM	#10
Squidmotron Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 675	Note: when you raise your salinity, do it gradually. Also note: if that is a single measurement, measure it again to be sure. __________________ .................................................. Current Tank Info: 210 Gallon "Mixed Reef" Tank (84 inches wide)

08/24/2016, 02:20 PM	#11
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	very, very low. Set it at 1.024. Evaporation will drive it a little higher but not out of good zone (upper limit 1.026). I question an lfs testing your water and selling you that coral, with those test results. You need your own testing equipment, a refractometer (salinity), an alkalinity test, a calcium test, a magnesium test, ( I use Salifert) and supplements for those 3 things (I use Kent). Frog is VERY prompt to bail out of its skeleton when it doesn't like conditions. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

08/24/2016, 11:07 AM	#2
heathlindner25 Moved On Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 3,644	Yes, it appears to be dying.

08/24/2016, 11:10 AM	#3
Nelee Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 6	What could have happened? Does the one left could survive?

08/24/2016, 11:32 AM	#5
Vadafallon Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 974	Yea it can survive. Check your nitrates, Alk and Calc and make sure your Salinity is consistent.

08/24/2016, 12:00 PM	#6
Nelee Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 6	Salinity: 1.020 Calcium: 400 Mag: 1410 Alkalinity: 8.3 Ammonia: 0 NO3: 40 PO4: .25 Temperature: 79.5 Yellow tang Blue Powder Tang 2 Clownfish hermits snail 1 cleaner shrimp 1 fire shrimp 1 blood shrimp 1 diamond goby 1 emerald crab 1 sand starfish

08/24/2016, 01:15 PM	#9
sil40sx Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 686	Salinity is very low for a coral

08/24/2016, 03:05 PM	#12
rt67ghy Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Dhaka, Bangladesh Posts: 984	I would advise fragging the head which is healthier and dipping it in iodine for a few days. You can try dipping the dying head also and if you're lucky you may be able to save it. Frogspawn (and hammers) normally don't do too well in shipping or if kept in a bag; I believe the stress causes them to get BJD which is normally difficult to treat. __________________ 180g mixed reef. 53g sump including 20g fuge. 320lbs LR, 140lbs LS. 1/2 hp chiller. Temp 75-79. Current Tank Info: Fish: 1 yellow tang, 1 mandarin, 1 pair of tomato clowns, 1 maroon clown, 1 skunk clown, 1 banggai cardinal. Anemones: 1 green haddoni carpet, 2 heteractis auroras, 1 LTA.

08/24/2016, 03:23 PM	#13
Tripod1404 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 1,821	In addition to low salinity + high phosphate/nitrate, make sure the coral is not in a high flow area. In my experience frogspawns, hammers and grapes (Euphyllia sp.) do not like constant/one directional high flow. Edges of their skeletons are pretty sharp, especially if the coral was previously kept in low flow that did not erode the sharp sides. If tentacles are constantly pressed against these edges of the skeleton by the water, they will get damaged and the coral will retract them in. Also be careful while holding it. Their skeleton cut my finger once, it burns like hell if a open wound is stung by a coral so be careful!!!

08/25/2016, 08:00 AM	#15
heathlindner25 Moved On Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 3,644	Looks much better

08/25/2016, 10:09 AM	#16
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	TO raise salinity safely, top off evaporation with salt water. Keep it at 1.024 forever. Corals need it, fish are fine with it. But also---inverts don't do well at lower salinity: I'm wondering about your salinity measuring device. Refractometer? I'd leave the coral alone until this salinity issue is resolved. I'm not at all convinced it's brown jelly disease: the salinity issue alone could cause bailout. So can high nitrates: this coral wants no more than 5 on nitrates. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

08/25/2016, 10:52 AM	#17
Nelee Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 6	I use Fluvial sea hydrometer I don't sea any brown jelly thing in the coral. is just an empty head (with only 4 tiny tentacles). I didn't find the head only one tiny tentacle piece floating.

08/25/2016, 10:57 AM	#18
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Uh...take a sample to the lfs and ask them what your salinity is before you do ANYTHING. Hydrometers are not easy to work well. I used one in a lab, and it (and every other one) was a pita. A refractometer (and if they sell you one, ask them to test it in the shop and be sure it's accurate) is going to save you far more in livestock and grief than its cost...which is, as equipment goes, pretty low. Be sure of your salinity first of ALL tests. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

08/25/2016, 11:02 AM	#19
Nelee Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 6	Thanks. My kit to measure magnesium, calcium, phosphate etc... arrives on tuesday I will buy the refractometer. Thanks for your help and patience.

08/25/2016, 11:53 AM	#20
urbanknight Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 34	Nelee, @Sk8r has provided you with some good advice. Stick with what he is saying and you should be ok.

08/25/2016, 05:45 PM	#21
Edz2891 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Erie, PA. Posts: 51	Whenever I had one die off I always took some side cutters or something similar and cut the dead one off and dipped the good one and crossed my fingers. I have had good luck with this process. I don't know if that is a proper way of doing it but it has worked for me. Good Luck however you decide to do it!!

08/25/2016, 09:43 PM	#22
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	Sk8r & everyone gave u excellent advice. She helps a lot of people in the new to hobby forum so I would definetly pay attention to what she says. I don't want to be the tang police but if your lfs is giving u advice on what livestock u are purchasing I would try & find a lfs that u could trust a little better. U are going to have problems with those tangs, or any tangs in a 40 breeder.