The sink of iniquity: your sump.

[Sk8r]

Sumps are wonderful---but--if they're piling higher and deeper with brown fluff, you have your answer as to why you can't get your nitrates down.

To clean a sump there are several ways. First, make up some new salt water. Shut down your system. pump your sump dry and discard the mucky water into a bucket. Use that to swish off all rubble, etc, before replacing in the sump. Wipe the sump dry to get all the corners. Refill with new salt water to the system-shutdown level, and turn the pump on. Instant sump clean AND water change.

Second method if you have a sump with so many partitions nothing can reach them, is to disconnect it, bucket your return pump (because it leaks) and take it to the back yard with a strong garden nozzle to blast the crevices out.

Third method, in event nothing else works, but not with a sump that has become absolutely awful because the awfulness would be dangerous, is to put on a filter sock and put a small pump to continually agitate the area where most brown gunk collects (a flashlight will tell you) and just run the system, changing filter socks daily until you are clear.

You may want to consider a better skimmer if you are having nitratre trouble that nothing resolves. The crud has got to go, and if your skimmer isn't getting rid of it efficiently, you're going to pay the bill in lost specimens and heartache. Check around. The cone-type skimmers, which froth, seem to pretty good; if yours only relies on bubbles, it may not serve a tank well enough, particularly when you move up tp a 50 gallon tank or thereabouts.

There's a lot of argument pro and con to be had here, but I've just been there with my own tank (nasty lot of dieoff of inverts and sump from a power out) so I thought I would pass my hard lesson on.

[BigEZ77]

Learn something new everyday...thx Sk8r. I have an AIO system with a rear sump...is it a good idea to keep some snails and/or hermit crabs in there?

[undbulsu]

One of the best tips I have read on these boards is to put a powerhead in the sump. Really helps to keep the detritus suspended so the protein skimmer can take it out.

[Sk8r]

I keep a cuc in the sump. Occasionally one of the little snails has to be pulled out of the pump, but it's worth it. It is excellent advice to have a powerhead in a chamber that won't disturb your fuge. Keeps stuff up and moving.

[DamonG]

One of my best investments for cleaning honestly is a 20.00 home depot homie vac. It is a lid, with a vacuum in it, that attaches to a 5 gallon bucket.. Simple as pie to vacuum out the sump and overflow boxes.. And, at the same time 5 gallon water exchanges.

The other is simply a turkey baster with a piece of hose on the end. I use that to now, blow off the rocks.. The filter socks(when I'm doing this, I use 5 micron socks) catch the excess..

And lastly, recently,I invested in a battery powered gravel vac.. I use this to vacuum the floor of the tank since mine is bare bottom.. I do each of those things on different days, and none takes more than half an hour.. Extremely easy and effective..

from note 7

[CStrickland]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Third method, in event nothing else works, but not with a sump that has become absolutely awful because the awfulness would be dangerous, is to put on a filter sock and put a small pump to continually agitate the area where most brown gunk collects (a flashlight will tell you) and just run the system, changing filter socks daily until you are clear.

I've run a variation on this after a mishap that got my sump filthy. I tied a filter sock over the outlet into my tank for a few hours and used a strong powerhead to blow everything into suspension for the pump to send into it. I took the opportunity to scrub out my skimmer and clean my heaters etc with some bottle brushes and tooth brushes too. I wouldn't leave it unattended, because of the flood risk or chance that the sock could fly off and dump everything into the dt. Worked like a charm, but it did confuse the fish

Also, besides sumps it's a good idea to flush out overflows in reef ready tanks every year or so. A lot of crud can build up down there invisible to us.

[Ron Reefman]

This is interesting as Randy Holmes Farley tells quite a different story. He lets the stuff build up on the bottom of his sump for years! I didn't clean mine for several years either and I never had any issues.

[cincyjim]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I keep a cuc in the sump. Occasionally one of the little snails has to be pulled out of the pump, but it's worth it. It is excellent advice to have a powerhead in a chamber that won't disturb your fuge. Keeps stuff up and moving.

I have a fair size power head in the sump to keep things moving. I didn't used to until I cleaned it a while back and you are so right... it keeps things moving really good. Definitely worth it for a lesser maintenance issue down the road.

[oldpaddy]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

This is interesting as Randy Holmes Farley tells quite a different story. He lets the stuff build up on the bottom of his sump for years! I didn't clean mine for several years either and I never had any issues.

What's his rational?

[jayball]

Originally Posted by oldpaddy

What's his rational?

IIRC it is that the mulm becomes inert over time and helps harbor a lot of benificial microlife.

I think this is more about being a balancing act, I try to keep a layer in the return compartment of my sump as another place for pods and worms to breed but that is only about a square foot. I could run into more problems if I let it collect every where in my system.

[BigEZ77]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I keep a cuc in the sump. Occasionally one of the little snails has to be pulled out of the pump, but it's worth it. It is excellent advice to have a powerhead in a chamber that won't disturb your fuge. Keeps stuff up and moving.

What cuc would you keep in a 10G sump? I have a nano skimmer, reactor and two return pumps in there which I think keeps the water moving pretty well.

[Greybeard]

I pulled my sump and scrubbed everything last weekend. I intend to do so once a year. I have one additional suggestion...

Sump monster.

Toss in a small rock crab, gorilla crab, or big emerald crab. They'll help keep the gunk broken up.

[GimpyFin]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

I pulled my sump and scrubbed everything last weekend. I intend to do so once a year. I have one additional suggestion...

Sump monster.

Toss in a small rock crab, gorilla crab, or big emerald crab. They'll help keep the gunk broken up.

+1. Sump monsters are great to have. I have a rather large emerald in my fuge section that really helps in keeping things tidy.

[CStrickland]

Originally Posted by oldpaddy

What's his rational?

He has a beautiful tank that has been running for decades. I would call it a low maintenance, low bioload, dirty-ish tank, mostly soft coral/ lps. I've read up on it a bit because it's similar to my goals but I use a totally diff approach to get there.

He doesn't really test the water, or dose besides carbon and kalk. He has more volume in sump than tank (3 50 gallon fuges, a sump, I think a canister filter, for a 120g). Iirc his point was that detritus isn't the make or break 'thing' in a tanks success.

I think of RHF like how Richard Ross has a thriving tank with 2 ppm phos and really high nitrate; or PaulB's success with his methods like RUGF and (I think Paul doesn't worry about detritus either and just does a major clean out every few years). They show that these factors are not necessarily the single kill switch for a reef tank. But there's lots of reefers who beat nutrient problems like sk8r describes in her post by removing that crud, so as advice for best practices for success in a new tank (this being the new to hobby forum) it's sensible to think of these tanks as exceptions, and keep in mind all of the other stuff that they have going on which may ameliorate the affects of allowing detrital accumulations.

[BigEZ77]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Sump monster.

Toss in a small rock crab, gorilla crab, or big emerald crab. They'll help keep the gunk broken up.

Noted, but what happens when you put your hand in there?! My sump is a rear compartment on an AIO tank and I can't always see exactly whats going on when my hand is in there. Also, wouldn't want anything that will go thru wires (reactor/skimmer) or a mesh bag (chemipure blue/matrix). Do you think that would be an issue if I were to get one of these?

[Greybeard]

Originally Posted by BigEZ77

Noted, but what happens when you put your hand in there?!

We're not talking about a danger to life and limb here...

I'm talking about something 2 to 4 inches. Ok, so if he happens to grab you... you say 'owie', and pull your hand out.

The mesh bag thing might well be a problem... I don't use them, or filter socks, so I've never had to worry about it. Never had a crab try and eat an electrical cable either, but I suppose it's possible...

[BigEZ77]

K, thx.

[Sk8r]

Ron Reefman raises an interesting point. In my case I had a massive 8 day shutdown which killed a fuge and some things in the dt, and the mess was definitely contributing to a nitrate problem I worked 9 months on before finally giving up. If your tank has been smoothly functioning and stayed chemically stable, no sweat. But if problems have piled up anywhere in the system, this is one place you can clean out. I think it's a case of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but if the system's broke, this and a general overhaul of processing ability (skimmer, which is easier to fix than the rock is) may be in order.

[Ron Reefman]

Sk8r, thanks. I see the 'stuff' that accumulates in the bottom of my refugium and sump as being a lot like having sand or mud in the refugium. It's not what I would recommend for people just learning the hobby, but I just wanted to be clear that having 'stuff' in the bottom of your sump isn't the end of the world or a nightmare for you system.

Lets face it, your being without electricity for so long and not having a back up generator was a very bad and hopefully a very rare situation.

[Sk8r]

Yes, I agree, if you can get a good healthy tank producing it. I had quite a bit of it BEFORE the collapse, and about the same after, but not enough life to handle it. What a stable healthy tank produces in that line is one thing, with abundant worms and pods and such. But until a tank reaches stable and healthy and is producing life that can handle it, ie, as in a fuge, which I wouldn't disturb, I'm less confident it can be helpful. A little brown fluff, no problem. If worms and pods are in it, I'm not worried, so long as they're doing their thing. I think that's the difference. While I cleaned mine out, I maintain a rubble pile about the size of a half gallon carton, a no-clean zone, and hope that life will inhabit it.

Worms and pods yes, absolutely: where they're thriving, it's a good thing.

[oldpaddy]

Be careful if you clean out your sump. A couple of months ago I quit a part time job cleaning marine tanks. There was this one customer who could be very difficult to deal with, but I knew how to handle her. She had her system set up for a year and wanted her sump cleaned out. I convinced her that it was not worth it at the time and that there was no sense doing it at that moment. A week after I quit I got a call from her stating that the company owner and my replacement nuked her tank. She told me she had them clean out the sump and when they were done and turned the system back on there was a pop and the power went out. Sounds like they had a bad short. They ended up killing half the tank and setting off a new cycle.
Long story short, be very careful when playing with water and electricity. Especially in tight areas like a sump. Also, don't **** me off or I'll quit and you'll be screwed

[homer1475]

Since this is my first tank with a separate sump, I started out keeping it pristine(cleaning it out every week when I did my weekly maintenance), then read an article by Randy about not cleaning the sump area so critters have a place to breed and eat.

My sump is split into 3 sections(skimmer/overflow, fuge, return), since I stopped cleaning my fuge section(I still clean the other 2 and suck out the detritus) I have way more pods and worms(critters) in that section. So theres some anecdotal evidence to not keeping your sump pristine.

[Sk8r]

The deal is, if you have LIFE in the sump, let it be. If you don't, if it's dead down there, it's not ok.