Durso + Sump GPH Capacity

jharding08 · 09/12/2016, 10:21 AM

I have a 180 gallon Vision tank with a back center overflow. Overflow has one 1.5" drain and 2 x 3/4" returns.

I plumbed the drain with a durso pipe (2 x 90 elbows) and a 1/4" hole on the top. I'm not sure of the capacity of the overflow teeth, should be able to handle my pump.

I run a waveline DC6000 variable speed DC return pump. It sits in a custom sump (36"x20"x16") with a drain section that overflows into a filter sock chamber

I currently have the 1.5" drain submerged about 2" in the drain chamber. I am using flex pvc with pvc elbows (two 90s to get from bulkhead to drain chamber).

When I have the Waveline DC6000 at the lowest setting, everything run smoothly. The water flows quietly into the drain chamber and up over into the filter socks.

Once I up the return pump GPH, it starts to get noisy, the water flowing into the drain chamber comes rushing up over the weir into the return chamber. Its noisy and is going to create a ton of salt creep.

The drain chamber is just big enough for the 1.5" flex PVC to sit in the drain, not sure if I shouldve made it bigger to accomodate a larger pump. On my last tank, a 120 that used this same sump, I had a bean animal overflow that I could get the return pump up higher GPH without it splashing over uncontrollably.

For a single 1.5" drain on this sump, what can I do to get more GPH out of my return pump and still keep the drain chamber controlled?

Thanks

mcgyvr · 09/12/2016, 10:29 AM

There is very little you can do..
But simply changing to a durso may help "some"..
https://www.dursostandpipes.com/

Other than that your are SOL..
Welcome to the HUGE negatives of a single drain pipe..

jharding08 · 09/12/2016, 10:53 AM

I am doing a durso, but with just two 90s creating an upside down "U". Would the durso with the T be better instead?

jharding08 · 09/12/2016, 11:54 AM

The noise in the overflow with the durso is minimal, its the splashing coming out of the drain in the sump

mcgyvr · 09/12/2016, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jharding08

The noise in the overflow with the durso is minimal, its the splashing coming out of the drain in the sump

Welcome to an inferior drain system.. SOL...
Reduce flow is now your only real option..

Its sucking down air and those air bubbles are rising to the surface and making noise..

reduce flow and less bubbles will be introduced..

jharding08 · 09/12/2016, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Welcome to an inferior drain system.. SOL...
Reduce flow is now your only real option..

Its sucking down air and those air bubbles are rising to the surface and making noise..

reduce flow and less bubbles will be introduced..

I dont really have options for a better drain with the overflow and the holes drilled in the tank, do I?

hkgar · 09/12/2016, 12:56 PM

Is your return pipe below the water level in the sump?

jharding08 · 09/12/2016, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

Is your return pipe below the water level in the sump?

Yes, about 2 inches

nereefpat · 09/12/2016, 01:28 PM

Just thinking out loud here...

What about running the two 3/4 pipes at syphon, the 1.5" for emergency drain, then run returns over the top?

Two 3/4" gravity drains won't move as much water as a 1.5" gravity. But at full syphon they probably could, and there wouldn't be the noise.

You would want to play around with that DC pump and the 1.5" emergency drain to make sure it can handle the flow, ignoring the noise.

jharding08 · 09/12/2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nereefpat

Just thinking out loud here...

What about running the two 3/4 pipes at syphon, the 1.5" for emergency drain, then run returns over the top?

Two 3/4" gravity drains won't move as much water as a 1.5" gravity. But at full syphon they probably could, and there wouldn't be the noise.

You would want to play around with that DC pump and the 1.5" emergency drain to make sure it can handle the flow, ignoring the noise.

Or the two 3/4" at siphon and the 1.5" with the vent, like bean animal? I am also thinking how to run antisiphon holes in the returns as well. Right now I have them and the tunzes flow colliding with each other

mcgyvr · 09/12/2016, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jharding08

I dont really have options for a better drain with the overflow and the holes drilled in the tank, do I?

Always options..
Is tank populated yet?

Is bottom glass tempered?
How about back glass?
Wanna drill some glass?
Do you mind over the top returns? (or more drilling)

jharding08 · 09/13/2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Always options..
Is tank populated yet?

Is bottom glass tempered?
How about back glass?
Wanna drill some glass?
Do you mind over the top returns? (or more drilling)

Tank is fully stocked. Had to move and it replaced my old 120g.

I dont mind running the returns over the back, if it provides more capacity for the drain(s)

mcgyvr · 09/13/2016, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jharding08

Tank is fully stocked. Had to move and it replaced my old 120g.

I dont mind running the returns over the back, if it provides more capacity for the drain(s)

Well... I'd start planning on enlarging those 3/4" bulkhead holes and putting in a bean setup..

Maybe try it first on the 3/4" bulkheads and see how it goes and adapt from there..

jharding08 · 09/13/2016, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Well... I'd start planning on enlarging those 3/4" bulkhead holes and putting in a bean setup..

Maybe try it first on the 3/4" bulkheads and see how it goes and adapt from there..

Would I do 1.5" siphon and 3/4" open channel on one and emergency on other? That way I could adjust the full siphon to just enough for the 3/4" to handle

jharding08 · 09/13/2016, 03:40 PM

Someone has to have had experience with this before. Any ideas?

mcgyvr · 09/13/2016, 03:49 PM

Drill all holes to use the same 1.5" bulkhead.. Do bean..
or open to 1.25" bulkheads for the 2 smaller holes and use the existing 1.5 for an emergency..
Or try using the 2 x 3/4 for the open/siphon and the 1.5 for emergency.. It might not be that bad with that pump.. Valve would probably be full open on the full siphon

jharding08 · 09/13/2016, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Drill all holes to use the same 1.5" bulkhead.. Do bean..
or open to 1.25" bulkheads for the 2 smaller holes and use the existing 1.5 for an emergency..
Or try using the 2 x 3/4 for the open/siphon and the 1.5 for emergency.. It might not be that bad with that pump.. Valve would probably be full open on the full siphon

Could I upsize to 1" for the durso part of the 3/4" drains? I know in the durso instructions, it says to upsize to 1 1/4 for a 1" bulkhead

Not sure I could fit two 1" dursos and the 1.5" emergency (open top) in that small overflow

jharding08 · 09/13/2016, 04:08 PM

Returns over the side could fix my anti siphon issues with the current return lines too. They are too far submerged in the water, so when the power goes off or feed, they suck so much water into the sump, even if they are pointed almost straight up.

What should I do with the return lines coming out of the overflow? Just plug them off at the bulkhead?

Or I could run the return lines over the back and still use them through the overflow, but that doesnt fix my siphon issue

mcgyvr · 09/13/2016, 04:14 PM

ok..Lets try this again..
IF I was you......
I would open up the 2 x 3/4" returns to use 1" bulkheads and make those into the open and full channels on the bean animal drain system.. I would just use the larger existing one as the emergency.. ( so all 3 current holes in the overflow are used.. 2 smaller holes are upsized and one is left alone)

Then I would do 2 x 1" over the back return pipes with a couple anti-siphon drilled holes right under the water level on those 2.

jharding08 · 09/13/2016, 04:39 PM

I just can't drill the tank. I just got it up and running after a move and dont even want to think about a project that big, especially with a fully stocked tank.

I'll do as much as I can with the way it is, I can redo plumbing, just cant drill a glass tank full of water.

I'll take small improvements now and maybe plan out a larger upgrade to the tank later.

mcgyvr · 09/14/2016, 05:13 AM

Well then... Learn to live with the noise..

nereefpat · 09/14/2016, 08:24 AM

Mgyvr, can he enlarge the 3/4 holes on the bottom without cracking the tank? I would think that the bottom would be tempered after the original holes were drilled.

The back could be drilled inside the overflow, correct?

Or what are your thoughts on two 3/4 syphons and one large emergency drain? (Oops, I see you gave your opinion there)

Grayhead · 09/14/2016, 09:54 AM

Drilling a tank after being set up is iffy.
Heres what I did on my first tank. I had a durso with 1 1" standpiupe and 1 3/4 return.
Research herbie drain system. Basically same a a bean but minus the secondary drain. Use 1 1/2 materials for the for the main siphon drain. add a gate valve ( not a ball valve) to this to tune the flow during the siphon. use the 3/4 line for emergency drain or use 1 for emergency and one as part of your return system. I would plumb those in 1" pipe. It will restrict flow some with your current bulkheads, but that wont matter much.
I drained miune straight to the sump with very little turns. No horizontal sections either for the siphon. Do not restrict the emergency at all. When tuning, set the return pump flow to not exceed what you EMERGENCY drain will handle. you can even use the 2nd 3/4 for another level of protection. This setup will be much safer for you.

Grayhead · 09/14/2016, 10:01 AM

and not to mention dead silent. I ran this way for several years with no issues at all. I also made a screen for the main standpipe. You are always at risk for algae, snails or livestock getting in the overflow. I once lost a clownfish. Looked for him all day, and assumed he had jumped. I noticed my water level in my overflow was highher than normal. I opened the main gatevalve and the clown fish flushed out into my sump. So it would be good to have a screen to prevent something like this. If set up right, it will restart everytime with no issues.

Kevin Guthrie · 09/14/2016, 04:39 PM

If the problem is where the drain enters the sump, enclose it in a half-submerged container. Not sure what you can enclose it with if only two inches wide but the general idea is to let the bubbles come up inside a container instead of into open air. The container will need a hole for the drain pipe plus an air hole. Most of the spray wets the inside of the container. Also if your skimmer has an intake hose, route it to where the bubbles come up.

09/12/2016, 10:21 AM	#1
jharding08 BlueWorldAquatics.com Join Date: May 2012 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 657	Durso + Sump GPH Capacity I have a 180 gallon Vision tank with a back center overflow. Overflow has one 1.5" drain and 2 x 3/4" returns. I plumbed the drain with a durso pipe (2 x 90 elbows) and a 1/4" hole on the top. I'm not sure of the capacity of the overflow teeth, should be able to handle my pump. I run a waveline DC6000 variable speed DC return pump. It sits in a custom sump (36"x20"x16") with a drain section that overflows into a filter sock chamber I currently have the 1.5" drain submerged about 2" in the drain chamber. I am using flex pvc with pvc elbows (two 90s to get from bulkhead to drain chamber). When I have the Waveline DC6000 at the lowest setting, everything run smoothly. The water flows quietly into the drain chamber and up over into the filter socks. Once I up the return pump GPH, it starts to get noisy, the water flowing into the drain chamber comes rushing up over the weir into the return chamber. Its noisy and is going to create a ton of salt creep. The drain chamber is just big enough for the 1.5" flex PVC to sit in the drain, not sure if I shouldve made it bigger to accomodate a larger pump. On my last tank, a 120 that used this same sump, I had a bean animal overflow that I could get the return pump up higher GPH without it splashing over uncontrollably. For a single 1.5" drain on this sump, what can I do to get more GPH out of my return pump and still keep the drain chamber controlled? Thanks __________________ Stats: 180 g Mixed SPS/LPS reef tank, 30 gallon sump, live rock, GFO\Carbon, AquaMaxx AM250 in-sump skimmer, felt filter socks, cleaning crew

09/12/2016, 10:29 AM	#2
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	There is very little you can do.. But simply changing to a durso may help "some".. https://www.dursostandpipes.com/ Other than that your are SOL.. Welcome to the HUGE negatives of a single drain pipe.. __________________ Who me?

09/12/2016, 10:53 AM	#3
jharding08 BlueWorldAquatics.com Join Date: May 2012 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 657	I am doing a durso, but with just two 90s creating an upside down "U". Would the durso with the T be better instead? __________________ Stats: 180 g Mixed SPS/LPS reef tank, 30 gallon sump, live rock, GFO\Carbon, AquaMaxx AM250 in-sump skimmer, felt filter socks, cleaning crew Last edited by jharding08; 09/12/2016 at 11:16 AM.

09/12/2016, 11:54 AM	#4
jharding08 BlueWorldAquatics.com Join Date: May 2012 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 657	The noise in the overflow with the durso is minimal, its the splashing coming out of the drain in the sump __________________ Stats: 180 g Mixed SPS/LPS reef tank, 30 gallon sump, live rock, GFO\Carbon, AquaMaxx AM250 in-sump skimmer, felt filter socks, cleaning crew

09/12/2016, 12:56 PM	#7
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	Is your return pipe below the water level in the sump? __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

09/12/2016, 01:28 PM	#9
nereefpat Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 3,190	Just thinking out loud here... What about running the two 3/4 pipes at syphon, the 1.5" for emergency drain, then run returns over the top? Two 3/4" gravity drains won't move as much water as a 1.5" gravity. But at full syphon they probably could, and there wouldn't be the noise. You would want to play around with that DC pump and the 1.5" emergency drain to make sure it can handle the flow, ignoring the noise. __________________ Pat Current Tank Info: 125 in-wall , 40b sump. 6 bulb T5. ASM G2 skimmer. LPS and leathers

09/13/2016, 03:40 PM	#15
jharding08 BlueWorldAquatics.com Join Date: May 2012 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 657	Someone has to have had experience with this before. Any ideas? __________________ Stats: 180 g Mixed SPS/LPS reef tank, 30 gallon sump, live rock, GFO\Carbon, AquaMaxx AM250 in-sump skimmer, felt filter socks, cleaning crew

09/13/2016, 03:49 PM	#16
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Drill all holes to use the same 1.5" bulkhead.. Do bean.. or open to 1.25" bulkheads for the 2 smaller holes and use the existing 1.5 for an emergency.. Or try using the 2 x 3/4 for the open/siphon and the 1.5 for emergency.. It might not be that bad with that pump.. Valve would probably be full open on the full siphon __________________ Who me?

09/13/2016, 04:08 PM	#18
jharding08 BlueWorldAquatics.com Join Date: May 2012 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 657	Returns over the side could fix my anti siphon issues with the current return lines too. They are too far submerged in the water, so when the power goes off or feed, they suck so much water into the sump, even if they are pointed almost straight up. What should I do with the return lines coming out of the overflow? Just plug them off at the bulkhead? Or I could run the return lines over the back and still use them through the overflow, but that doesnt fix my siphon issue __________________ Stats: 180 g Mixed SPS/LPS reef tank, 30 gallon sump, live rock, GFO\Carbon, AquaMaxx AM250 in-sump skimmer, felt filter socks, cleaning crew

09/13/2016, 04:14 PM	#19
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	ok..Lets try this again.. IF I was you...... I would open up the 2 x 3/4" returns to use 1" bulkheads and make those into the open and full channels on the bean animal drain system.. I would just use the larger existing one as the emergency.. ( so all 3 current holes in the overflow are used.. 2 smaller holes are upsized and one is left alone) Then I would do 2 x 1" over the back return pipes with a couple anti-siphon drilled holes right under the water level on those 2. __________________ Who me?

09/13/2016, 04:39 PM	#20
jharding08 BlueWorldAquatics.com Join Date: May 2012 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 657	I just can't drill the tank. I just got it up and running after a move and dont even want to think about a project that big, especially with a fully stocked tank. I'll do as much as I can with the way it is, I can redo plumbing, just cant drill a glass tank full of water. I'll take small improvements now and maybe plan out a larger upgrade to the tank later. __________________ Stats: 180 g Mixed SPS/LPS reef tank, 30 gallon sump, live rock, GFO\Carbon, AquaMaxx AM250 in-sump skimmer, felt filter socks, cleaning crew

09/14/2016, 05:13 AM	#21
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Well then... Learn to live with the noise.. __________________ Who me?

09/14/2016, 08:24 AM	#22
nereefpat Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Central Nebraska Posts: 3,190	Mgyvr, can he enlarge the 3/4 holes on the bottom without cracking the tank? I would think that the bottom would be tempered after the original holes were drilled. The back could be drilled inside the overflow, correct? Or what are your thoughts on two 3/4 syphons and one large emergency drain? (Oops, I see you gave your opinion there) __________________ Pat Current Tank Info: 125 in-wall , 40b sump. 6 bulb T5. ASM G2 skimmer. LPS and leathers

09/14/2016, 09:54 AM	#23
Grayhead Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 581	Drilling a tank after being set up is iffy. Heres what I did on my first tank. I had a durso with 1 1" standpiupe and 1 3/4 return. Research herbie drain system. Basically same a a bean but minus the secondary drain. Use 1 1/2 materials for the for the main siphon drain. add a gate valve ( not a ball valve) to this to tune the flow during the siphon. use the 3/4 line for emergency drain or use 1 for emergency and one as part of your return system. I would plumb those in 1" pipe. It will restrict flow some with your current bulkheads, but that wont matter much. I drained miune straight to the sump with very little turns. No horizontal sections either for the siphon. Do not restrict the emergency at all. When tuning, set the return pump flow to not exceed what you EMERGENCY drain will handle. you can even use the 2nd 3/4 for another level of protection. This setup will be much safer for you.

09/14/2016, 10:01 AM	#24
Grayhead Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 581	and not to mention dead silent. I ran this way for several years with no issues at all. I also made a screen for the main standpipe. You are always at risk for algae, snails or livestock getting in the overflow. I once lost a clownfish. Looked for him all day, and assumed he had jumped. I noticed my water level in my overflow was highher than normal. I opened the main gatevalve and the clown fish flushed out into my sump. So it would be good to have a screen to prevent something like this. If set up right, it will restart everytime with no issues.

09/14/2016, 04:39 PM	#25
Kevin Guthrie Registered Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 506	If the problem is where the drain enters the sump, enclose it in a half-submerged container. Not sure what you can enclose it with if only two inches wide but the general idea is to let the bubbles come up inside a container instead of into open air. The container will need a hole for the drain pipe plus an air hole. Most of the spray wets the inside of the container. Also if your skimmer has an intake hose, route it to where the bubbles come up.