Need advice! 4 mo old tank - new CUC, hermits fine but mass snail die off.

MattieH · 11/13/2016, 10:40 PM

Greetings!

I'm kind of new at this... just getting back into reefing after almost 20 years out of the hobby...

I set up my 78 gal with 20 gal sump back in July and started the cycle with 80lbs of CaribSea, a fuge full of miracle mud and eventually 50lbs of ReefCleaners dry rock. Nearly four months later and I'm finally fully cycled. I used the pure ammonia method. Went through a three week nitrite spike, and then a few weeks of super high nitrates. The tank was cycled when all of the levels were at 0 and I could give it a decent dose of ammonia on any given evening and all the levels were back to 0 by the next evening. I had a big diatom bloom half way through, but it was mostly solved with a water change. There is now a moderate amount of diatoms in the tank, no other algae as of yet.

So... I waited until levels were steady for a week plus, and then contacted ReefCleaners for my custom Cuc. Per John's recommendation I ordered 50 dwark ceriths, 17 nassarius, 17 regular ceriths, 16 nerites, 14 hermits, 2 emerald crabs,a ball of chaeto and a package of reef pods. They came in the mail last Tuesday, and I had them in the tank within a half hour of delivery.

Here's where it all goes downhill... aside from the two emeralds, which came in just about DOA (John quickly refunded me - he's awesome, didn't even ask questions), everything looked good and healthy. So I followed the ReefCleaners acclimation instructions, let them float for about half hour for the temp to adjust, discarded the packing water and dumped them in. Made sure no one was upside down. The nassarius all took off, as did the nerites and hermits. The regular ceriths stuck their feet out but never moved. I flipped them, but they'd be back on their sides with their feet sticking out a few hours later. The dwarf ceriths never came out at all, only four or five ever crawled away. Within two days, the ceriths, who had never moved, were all empty shells save one. At that point, the nassarius, who had mostly climbed the glass, had fallen down and were just sticking their feet up. Still no movement from the dwarf ceriths. The nerites were still going strong. Within another two days (6 days in), the nerites were falling off the glass and rocks, and starting to act very lethargic. When they fell, they'd just stick their feet out. I'd flip them and they'd start going again, just to fall again. Nassarius were mostly dead, just a few left and not moving. Still no movement from the dwarf ceriths. Got home Thursday after work (it had been been 9 days) and found every remaining snail dead, including all nerites. They all failed the sniff test.

The twist is that the hermits are all still very much alive and seemingly very happy. I don't think they're the reason for the mass snail die-off - none seemed interested in any snails until dead, save one bigger hermit who was quickly banished to the fuge. I've bought every test kit available to see if the problem might be with my levels, but everything is seemingly perfect:

Ammonia: 0 (even with all the die-off, it's remained at almost 0 the whole time. awesome.)
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
pH: 8.0
Phosphates: 0
Copper: 0 - was really worried about this but it's consistently 0.
Calcium: 480ppm
Alk: 7dKH
Gravity: 1.025 (refractometer)
Temp: 79.3

I use water from the tap that has been run through my RO filter. I use API kits to test levels. Knowing some folk's skepticism about API's reliability, I went and verified that my kits are all accurate by bringing water to the LFS and having them test as well.

I don't know what to do at this point. I've spent hours Googling, but to no avail. I know I should keep doing water changes, but how am I supposed to know if water changes are solving the problem without having to risk more live animals? Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

homer1475 · 11/14/2016, 05:43 AM

I bought 2 huge packs of snails of them, all seemed fine when arrived, acclimated for temp, dumped in. All within a couple days were dead. I will not order snails from them again as this is the second time all were dead within a couple days.

I know its not something with my tank as all the snails I transferred over from my biocube are still alive and kicking, and all my hermits from them are fine also.

Thats twice all the snails have died. Why I do not know, but after trying them out twice, I will not buy from them again. I know many other people have had a great experience with RC, and I did as well. But if everything dies in a couple days, kind of useless to keep ordering from them.

scooter31707 · 11/14/2016, 10:13 AM

May not have enough to eat. Are you feeding them?

Sk8r · 11/14/2016, 11:00 AM

Your magnesium?
I'm wondering if the balance between alkalinity (which is a point low) and mg was too low to allow the snails to prevent their shells thinning...not sure on the point: I'm not a biochemist. But if alk sinks lower than 8, the ability of water to keep calcium sufficiently available for critters to use also declines. Keep your alk between 8 and 9. And set your magnesium at 1350. Also, they could starve in a new tank if not fed. Read the sticky above on CYCLING.

shingo43 · 11/14/2016, 01:14 PM

from my experience some snails are sensitive to PH changes, they will die if you just dump them into your tank without proper acclimation. When they are shipped in the bag the PH will be lower than your tanks, so you should take time drip acclimate them.

CrayolaViolence · 11/14/2016, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shingo43

from my experience some snails are sensitive to PH changes, they will die if you just dump them into your tank without proper acclimation. When they are shipped in the bag the PH will be lower than your tanks, so you should take time drip acclimate them.

Not sure about the OP, but my snails for RC came in bags with only a wet paper towel. There was no water to acclimate them from. My plants also came in empty bags, but without a wet cloth 30% or so died. I was asked to send a photo but sadly my phone won't upload right now. My snails however did fine. I thought they might be DOA when they got here, but I put them in a plastic cup and set them in the tank and they were crawling all over by morning. So I haven't had any bad experiences with snails from them. I wouldn't even say the plant loss was bad. It happens.
I wonder if the real problem could be temperature. Any idea what the water temps are running down in FL this time of year?

CindyK · 11/14/2016, 05:37 PM

That's a huge cleanup crew and not much food if all you had were a few diatoms, unless they were being fed. I have a 75 gal and I don't have 1/4 that size cuc, and I added them slowly as the algae in my tank increased.

Also, I always understood that snails had to be acclimated a little more slowly? I'm new too, so I could be wrong about that part

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

minus9 · 11/14/2016, 05:48 PM

I agree with Sk8r, check your mag levels. If your mag is above 1400, it can cause problems with snails.

dallen2233 · 11/14/2016, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shingo43

from my experience some snails are sensitive to PH changes, they will die if you just dump them into your tank without proper acclimation. When they are shipped in the bag the PH will be lower than your tanks, so you should take time drip acclimate them.

+1 Drip acclimation has always given me lower deaths than just floating the bag.

MattieH · 11/16/2016, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Your magnesium?
I'm wondering if the balance between alkalinity (which is a point low) and mg was too low to allow the snails to prevent their shells thinning...not sure on the point: I'm not a biochemist. But if alk sinks lower than 8, the ability of water to keep calcium sufficiently available for critters to use also declines. Keep your alk between 8 and 9. And set your magnesium at 1350. Also, they could starve in a new tank if not fed. Read the sticky above on CYCLING.

I've been feeding the tank. Magnesium... that's something I haven't tested. Come to think of it, I've put in a ball of chaeto that doesn't seem to be doing well either, maybe there's a mg connection. Thanks for the advice, I'm going to order a test kit and see if that's the problem.

MattieH · 11/16/2016, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrayolaViolence

Not sure about the OP, but my snails for RC came in bags with only a wet paper towel. There was no water to acclimate them from. My plants also came in empty bags, but without a wet cloth 30% or so died. I was asked to send a photo but sadly my phone won't upload right now. My snails however did fine. I thought they might be DOA when they got here, but I put them in a plastic cup and set them in the tank and they were crawling all over by morning. So I haven't had any bad experiences with snails from them. I wouldn't even say the plant loss was bad. It happens.
I wonder if the real problem could be temperature. Any idea what the water temps are running down in FL this time of year?

+1 mine were shipped the same way. I think the idea of shipping with just a wet paper towel is to avoid the need to acclimate.

11/13/2016, 10:40 PM	#1
MattieH Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 35	Need advice! 4 mo old tank - new CUC, hermits fine but mass snail die off. Greetings! I'm kind of new at this... just getting back into reefing after almost 20 years out of the hobby... I set up my 78 gal with 20 gal sump back in July and started the cycle with 80lbs of CaribSea, a fuge full of miracle mud and eventually 50lbs of ReefCleaners dry rock. Nearly four months later and I'm finally fully cycled. I used the pure ammonia method. Went through a three week nitrite spike, and then a few weeks of super high nitrates. The tank was cycled when all of the levels were at 0 and I could give it a decent dose of ammonia on any given evening and all the levels were back to 0 by the next evening. I had a big diatom bloom half way through, but it was mostly solved with a water change. There is now a moderate amount of diatoms in the tank, no other algae as of yet. So... I waited until levels were steady for a week plus, and then contacted ReefCleaners for my custom Cuc. Per John's recommendation I ordered 50 dwark ceriths, 17 nassarius, 17 regular ceriths, 16 nerites, 14 hermits, 2 emerald crabs,a ball of chaeto and a package of reef pods. They came in the mail last Tuesday, and I had them in the tank within a half hour of delivery. Here's where it all goes downhill... aside from the two emeralds, which came in just about DOA (John quickly refunded me - he's awesome, didn't even ask questions), everything looked good and healthy. So I followed the ReefCleaners acclimation instructions, let them float for about half hour for the temp to adjust, discarded the packing water and dumped them in. Made sure no one was upside down. The nassarius all took off, as did the nerites and hermits. The regular ceriths stuck their feet out but never moved. I flipped them, but they'd be back on their sides with their feet sticking out a few hours later. The dwarf ceriths never came out at all, only four or five ever crawled away. Within two days, the ceriths, who had never moved, were all empty shells save one. At that point, the nassarius, who had mostly climbed the glass, had fallen down and were just sticking their feet up. Still no movement from the dwarf ceriths. The nerites were still going strong. Within another two days (6 days in), the nerites were falling off the glass and rocks, and starting to act very lethargic. When they fell, they'd just stick their feet out. I'd flip them and they'd start going again, just to fall again. Nassarius were mostly dead, just a few left and not moving. Still no movement from the dwarf ceriths. Got home Thursday after work (it had been been 9 days) and found every remaining snail dead, including all nerites. They all failed the sniff test. The twist is that the hermits are all still very much alive and seemingly very happy. I don't think they're the reason for the mass snail die-off - none seemed interested in any snails until dead, save one bigger hermit who was quickly banished to the fuge. I've bought every test kit available to see if the problem might be with my levels, but everything is seemingly perfect: Ammonia: 0 (even with all the die-off, it's remained at almost 0 the whole time. awesome.) Nitrites: 0 Nitrates: 0 pH: 8.0 Phosphates: 0 Copper: 0 - was really worried about this but it's consistently 0. Calcium: 480ppm Alk: 7dKH Gravity: 1.025 (refractometer) Temp: 79.3 I use water from the tap that has been run through my RO filter. I use API kits to test levels. Knowing some folk's skepticism about API's reliability, I went and verified that my kits are all accurate by bringing water to the LFS and having them test as well. I don't know what to do at this point. I've spent hours Googling, but to no avail. I know I should keep doing water changes, but how am I supposed to know if water changes are solving the problem without having to risk more live animals? Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

11/14/2016, 05:43 AM	#2
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	I bought 2 huge packs of snails of them, all seemed fine when arrived, acclimated for temp, dumped in. All within a couple days were dead. I will not order snails from them again as this is the second time all were dead within a couple days. I know its not something with my tank as all the snails I transferred over from my biocube are still alive and kicking, and all my hermits from them are fine also. Thats twice all the snails have died. Why I do not know, but after trying them out twice, I will not buy from them again. I know many other people have had a great experience with RC, and I did as well. But if everything dies in a couple days, kind of useless to keep ordering from them. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

11/14/2016, 11:00 AM	#4
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Your magnesium? I'm wondering if the balance between alkalinity (which is a point low) and mg was too low to allow the snails to prevent their shells thinning...not sure on the point: I'm not a biochemist. But if alk sinks lower than 8, the ability of water to keep calcium sufficiently available for critters to use also declines. Keep your alk between 8 and 9. And set your magnesium at 1350. Also, they could starve in a new tank if not fed. Read the sticky above on CYCLING. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/14/2016, 05:37 PM	#7
CindyK Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 268	That's a huge cleanup crew and not much food if all you had were a few diatoms, unless they were being fed. I have a 75 gal and I don't have 1/4 that size cuc, and I added them slowly as the algae in my tank increased. Also, I always understood that snails had to be acclimated a little more slowly? I'm new too, so I could be wrong about that part Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk __________________ Taking "there is no such thing as a stupid question" to a whole new level. Current Tank Info: 75 gal mixed reef under construction, 32 gal Biocube softies

11/14/2016, 10:13 AM	#3
scooter31707 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,971	May not have enough to eat. Are you feeding them?

11/14/2016, 01:14 PM	#5
shingo43 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 223	from my experience some snails are sensitive to PH changes, they will die if you just dump them into your tank without proper acclimation. When they are shipped in the bag the PH will be lower than your tanks, so you should take time drip acclimate them.

11/14/2016, 05:48 PM	#8
minus9 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: I'm in the Valley, Dude! Posts: 1,349	I agree with Sk8r, check your mag levels. If your mag is above 1400, it can cause problems with snails.