Fish lost begging behavior

brianacooper11 · 01/06/2017, 01:26 PM

I have a 28 gallon nano with inmates:

2 ocellaris clowns
watchman goby and pistol shrimp
tailspot blenny
unidentified, well behaved juvenile damsel fish (200 gallon tank coming in a few months)
Many and varied snails, crabs, 2-4 inches aragonite substrate, 20 lb or so live rock.

I moved the tank to the basement a couple weeks ago, so the whole tank was upset, and is recycling. I'm doing water changes every 1 to 2 days to keep ammonia below 1.0 ppm until the bacteria catch up. I'm letting algae come and go on three tank sides.

Yesterday I did not feed the tank, just in case it might do some good. Just prior to lights out, I realized there was fish poop everywhere. Usually the CUC is right on top of that. It's gone today. The damselfish and clowns were also eating algae off the walls. Usually just the blenny does that, the others stick to flakes and frozen food.

Today I dropped a third of a frozen cube of mysis shrimp into the tank...and nobody ate any of it. It just settled to the bottom, eventually. All the fish ignored it. They were also not hugging the front of the tank like they usually do when I observe.

I'm still new to this, and the pooping and lack of appetite are new to me and the tank mates. Anyone ever see this happen to the whole tank, either as a stress response, or ich? Did they simply learn from the blenny that algae tastes good, and they're full? Ideas about the mystery pooping?

Thanks.

Sk8r · 01/06/2017, 01:40 PM

Mmm. Lot of variables. ANY ammonia is lethal, and death usually follows in 3 days, And two weeks after a tank move and reassembly, it could be rearing its head in a mini-cycle. Water changes will help, but will also be a disturbance to the biosystem which is trying to cycle. My advice under ordinary circumstacnes would be to use Prime, which will outright convert the ammonia to something not lethal, (Amquel is much the same). But----
Here's the problem: you WANT to feed bacteria that eat ammonia. But ammonia will poison the fish and ruin their kidneys. Conclusion: your fish shouldn't be in that tank while the bacteria are trying to sort it out.
The mystery pooping could be a universal reaction to water change or poisoning, and the fact that it wasn't being disposed of could be also a lack of bacteria. It's worrisome. YOu might also (though I don't generally recommend bacteria-in-a-bottle) try it---your tank might use a boost. Put ALL your livestock into a bucket of warmed good water, no sand, no rock, just aeration. LET the tank cycle, try the bacteria-in-a=bottle and skip the Prime: continue your water changes on the BUCKET, not the tank, and hope that the fish will get through this. It's the best solution I can think of.

brianacooper11 · 01/06/2017, 01:49 PM

Every batch of water gets Prime-ed. I was also using Seachem's 'Stability', their bacteria in a bottle, daily, BUT have forgotten the past two nights. So there is another variable.

Can you over-do it with Prime, bottled bacteria, and/or water changes?

brianacooper11 · 01/06/2017, 02:02 PM

So I should say I am trying to keep the combination of ammonia and ammonium to less than 1.0 ppm. Using the API test, I struggle to pick amongst the colors below that, visually. I'm very slightly red-green colorblind, and that yellow-green at the bottom is a b***h for me. I also keep the previous day's test to help judge a change.

Since I brought that up, anyone know of an ammonia test with different colors?

Thanks,
Brian

brianacooper11 · 01/06/2017, 02:15 PM

I'd like to add that this is the first time I've had any kind of a bump in the process of starting a new tank, and I owe it to the great material in this forum that I got this far without substantial trouble. My thanks to everyone, hope I eventually contribute.

Elricsfate · 01/06/2017, 02:26 PM

I'm nowhere near the authority figure that Sk8r is around here...but if it were me and my tank, I'd go grab a couple of bottles of Bio Spira, double dose the tank, and see how things looked tomorrow.

"Bacteria in a bottle" works just fine. I have a running tank, with healthy fish doing just fine, that never cycled a single day without them in it, and never had Ammonia above .25...to prove that.

I would also echo the sentiment regarding the tremendous help this board has been as I have been getting started. It certainly has.

Sk8r · 01/06/2017, 02:41 PM

I'm a bit conservative about the benefits of bacteria in bottles principally because too absolute a reliance on them can lead novices into problems: judging when a tank is 'ready' and breaking it in is a little chancy. In this case---that tank needs help which this product can give. I would still move the livestock to clean water, because, well, it's safer.
For brand of test, especially for the color problem, I prefer Salifert. A clear numerical result in most tests, a color chart in others, but for me, easier than matching some other brands.

Elricsfate · 01/06/2017, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I'm a bit conservative about the benefits of bacteria in bottles principally because too absolute a reliance on them can lead novices into problems: judging when a tank is 'ready' and breaking it in is a little chancy. In this case---that tank needs help which this product can give. I would still move the livestock to clean water, because, well, it's safer.
For brand of test, especially for the color problem, I prefer Salifert. A clear numerical result in most tests, a color chart in others, but for me, easier than matching some other brands.

Yes, I agree. I did not mean to discount your advice. Clearly you have exponentially more experience in this hobby than I do.

I want to be clear that in spite of the claims on the bottle I did start my tank with just one fish. However, after a week had gone by with no discernable ammonia I added two very small clowns. Another week and I added a couple more small fish. So in spite of the fact that I do believe this product works, I still wouldn't just dump in a bottle, stock the tank to overflowing, and go to bed. :-)

However, if you believe your ammonia is a bit high and your bacteria has not grown to the point where it can handle it...I believe adding some would be helpful.

That's just my two cents, based on my (admittedly limited) experience.

brianacooper11 · 01/07/2017, 04:50 PM

It just clicked that I changed the salinity from 31 ppt to 35 ppt in a single step, one water change. I'm sure that's what caused the stress and weird behavior. Lesson learned.

Everything seems back to normal, though I'm still battling ammonia. I'm taking both your advice, and putting critters in a M.A.S.H. tank while I dose bio-spira, and see what happens.

Thanks.

01/06/2017, 01:26 PM	#1
brianacooper11 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 21	Fish lost begging behavior I have a 28 gallon nano with inmates: 2 ocellaris clowns watchman goby and pistol shrimp tailspot blenny unidentified, well behaved juvenile damsel fish (200 gallon tank coming in a few months) Many and varied snails, crabs, 2-4 inches aragonite substrate, 20 lb or so live rock. I moved the tank to the basement a couple weeks ago, so the whole tank was upset, and is recycling. I'm doing water changes every 1 to 2 days to keep ammonia below 1.0 ppm until the bacteria catch up. I'm letting algae come and go on three tank sides. Yesterday I did not feed the tank, just in case it might do some good. Just prior to lights out, I realized there was fish poop everywhere. Usually the CUC is right on top of that. It's gone today. The damselfish and clowns were also eating algae off the walls. Usually just the blenny does that, the others stick to flakes and frozen food. Today I dropped a third of a frozen cube of mysis shrimp into the tank...and nobody ate any of it. It just settled to the bottom, eventually. All the fish ignored it. They were also not hugging the front of the tank like they usually do when I observe. I'm still new to this, and the pooping and lack of appetite are new to me and the tank mates. Anyone ever see this happen to the whole tank, either as a stress response, or ich? Did they simply learn from the blenny that algae tastes good, and they're full? Ideas about the mystery pooping? Thanks.

01/06/2017, 01:40 PM	#2
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Mmm. Lot of variables. ANY ammonia is lethal, and death usually follows in 3 days, And two weeks after a tank move and reassembly, it could be rearing its head in a mini-cycle. Water changes will help, but will also be a disturbance to the biosystem which is trying to cycle. My advice under ordinary circumstacnes would be to use Prime, which will outright convert the ammonia to something not lethal, (Amquel is much the same). But---- Here's the problem: you WANT to feed bacteria that eat ammonia. But ammonia will poison the fish and ruin their kidneys. Conclusion: your fish shouldn't be in that tank while the bacteria are trying to sort it out. The mystery pooping could be a universal reaction to water change or poisoning, and the fact that it wasn't being disposed of could be also a lack of bacteria. It's worrisome. YOu might also (though I don't generally recommend bacteria-in-a-bottle) try it---your tank might use a boost. Put ALL your livestock into a bucket of warmed good water, no sand, no rock, just aeration. LET the tank cycle, try the bacteria-in-a=bottle and skip the Prime: continue your water changes on the BUCKET, not the tank, and hope that the fish will get through this. It's the best solution I can think of. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%. Last edited by Sk8r; 01/06/2017 at 01:45 PM.

01/06/2017, 02:41 PM	#7
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	I'm a bit conservative about the benefits of bacteria in bottles principally because too absolute a reliance on them can lead novices into problems: judging when a tank is 'ready' and breaking it in is a little chancy. In this case---that tank needs help which this product can give. I would still move the livestock to clean water, because, well, it's safer. For brand of test, especially for the color problem, I prefer Salifert. A clear numerical result in most tests, a color chart in others, but for me, easier than matching some other brands. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

01/06/2017, 01:49 PM	#3
brianacooper11 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 21	Every batch of water gets Prime-ed. I was also using Seachem's 'Stability', their bacteria in a bottle, daily, BUT have forgotten the past two nights. So there is another variable. Can you over-do it with Prime, bottled bacteria, and/or water changes?

01/06/2017, 02:02 PM	#4
brianacooper11 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 21	So I should say I am trying to keep the combination of ammonia and ammonium to less than 1.0 ppm. Using the API test, I struggle to pick amongst the colors below that, visually. I'm very slightly red-green colorblind, and that yellow-green at the bottom is a b***h for me. I also keep the previous day's test to help judge a change. Since I brought that up, anyone know of an ammonia test with different colors? Thanks, Brian

01/06/2017, 02:15 PM	#5
brianacooper11 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 21	I'd like to add that this is the first time I've had any kind of a bump in the process of starting a new tank, and I owe it to the great material in this forum that I got this far without substantial trouble. My thanks to everyone, hope I eventually contribute.

01/06/2017, 02:26 PM	#6
Elricsfate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Fredericksburg, Va Posts: 482	I'm nowhere near the authority figure that Sk8r is around here...but if it were me and my tank, I'd go grab a couple of bottles of Bio Spira, double dose the tank, and see how things looked tomorrow. "Bacteria in a bottle" works just fine. I have a running tank, with healthy fish doing just fine, that never cycled a single day without them in it, and never had Ammonia above .25...to prove that. I would also echo the sentiment regarding the tremendous help this board has been as I have been getting started. It certainly has.

01/07/2017, 04:50 PM	#9
brianacooper11 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 21	It just clicked that I changed the salinity from 31 ppt to 35 ppt in a single step, one water change. I'm sure that's what caused the stress and weird behavior. Lesson learned. Everything seems back to normal, though I'm still battling ammonia. I'm taking both your advice, and putting critters in a M.A.S.H. tank while I dose bio-spira, and see what happens. Thanks.