The days of buying decent sized corals for decent prices is over.

[EMeyer]

I dont think you can explain all of the price gouging with improvements in the coral.

The common corals are also being sold for high prices. Look up the prices of Sinularia, Xenia, or common hard corals like Pocillopora. Based on the marginal costs of production these corals should be nearly free (or maybe $5-10). Instead youll find them listed at $30+.

The price of "collector" corals affects the price of common corals, and the price of common corals affects the price of "collector" corals.

Just like any other industry, the solution is for one or more large vendors to target bargain shoppers with a low cost high volume business model, and for consumers to express a preference.

Threads like this are part of expressing that preference, but the more important part is to reward vendors who offer low prices and shun vendors who sell overpriced corals.

[Fourstars]

The hobby is moving to a more substainable future. Get use to it.

[newbie2014]

Originally Posted by FSJGUY

Whats funny for me is the reef places i have which is about 4 or 5 of em.. only 1 has nice employees.. The rest are jerks.. I remember one i went too when i first started salt water and enquired about the tank size i had and i had no sump or special equipment and he kept saying oh that tank wont work.. well what about my 92g cornee bwofront or my 135.. na they wont either... You should buy this tank with an overflow.


I laughed and walked out... I went back in 4 months later and showed him my tank and said remember me ?? He went quiet..

The other store near me is supreme reefs.. who is run by a asian guy named Ben. he apparently is some big shot at coral competitions and stuff and has many awards and some people online may know him.. First time i walked in his store he was really cool helpfull and explained i dont need phosphates and nitrates at 0 to be sucessfull with corals he showed me his 450g display tank and nitrates were 40ppm in it and he had some crazy corals in there... But the 2nd time i went in it changed.


Soon as i got out of my Jeep with my girl friend the garage door opened and a plume of weed smoke came out with some rasta music and i was taken back... Sorry smoke at your house not your place of business.. For one its illegal in virginia.. two i dont need THC in my corals im buying. And theee i dont want to breathe 2nd hand smoke in.. Weed or not seriously.

He was also rude to my gf and ignored me the whole time when i needed help.. Then he wouldnt tive me the 20% discount his craigslist page mentioned.

The 3rd place is just hella expensive and rhey have a poor selection of anything.. They mainly clean and setup ppls tanks.


the 4th place was really cool.. nice people at first.. Then on black friday i got shoved into a can of salt water by a customer with my leather jack on my arm was soaked and i was ****ED he lucky i didnt dunk his head into the coral tanks... I mentioned it to the employee they just went eh its black friday... Sorry if that was my store... shoving and pushing id kick those people out. Then on top of that he sold a torch coral with 3 heads i inquired about but had to wait for to a customer who heard about the peice when i inquired.. Then claims it was taken already .. Bulllll. to me thats just rude.

I WONT spend a dime in places with potheads.. rude employees and high prices... Sorry.

Thats why i stick to petco.. i can order any coral i want and they have a huge coral tank with nice affordable corals and ive never had an issue with employees working there.


Sorry to say but ill support a big box store over any local store with potheads and jerks working in them.. Also in the end im not a charity i dont make tons of money to blow... So why pay 60$ for coral when petco has the same exact coral for 30$ from ORA or something ? So i should spend more money to support my local store and have less money in my bank account ? Thats not how life works for me..

Don't mean to derail the thread, but I find this post insightful and mirrors my experiences locally. Have they kicked you out of the club yet? Ben is one of the sponsors. I'm too from NOVA. Please pm me the location of your preferred Petco. I'd like to check it out too.

Like others has said; there's no stopping to these price gauging trends. You have to pay to play, kinda. It's just a hobby to me, and I don't lose sleep over it. I only buy the cheap colorful frags that I can find, then let them grow. Once they're big, I'll split them and give away or trade for other colorful frags. Sorry, I'm not spending that kind of money for anything that bounces or has Jason or WWC in its name.

I got into reef for cheap, so I don't expect to make money out of it. It's nothing wrong for those who spend tons of money to keep their systems in tip-top shape to try to make some money of of it.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

The hobby is moving to a more substainable future. Get use to it.

This is true too.
Colonies were wild caught. Poor chance of survival in our tanks and higher risk of pests.
Now most coral is aquacultured.

[EMeyer]

There is no reason why more aquacultured corals has to lead to higher prices. Aquaculture increases supply, reduces shipping costs, and reduces losses to mortality.

People who say there is no stopping the price trends have apparently not paid enough attention to any other markets or industries. Right now the vendors are working on a low volume high profit margins model. Its possible for a new vendor to compete successfully with a high volume low profit margin model, if there is enough demand.

[Fourstars]

That's correct, The market and supply will determine the trend, Which will be self correcting.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

There is no reason why more aquacultured corals has to lead to higher prices. Aquaculture increases supply, reduces shipping costs, and reduces losses to mortality.

Maybe you can explain that further.
An LFS can get boxes of wild caught colonies for cheap!
The higher end aquacultured stuff is often hand collected by the collector, nursed in their system for months to years, and then finally being fragged and sold. There's a whole middle man, facility and time that is not present with the wild stuff. It's like fish from Divers Den vs standard L.A. Or the cost of fish bred in captivity vs wild caught.

[newbie2014]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

.........People who say there is no stopping the price trends have apparently not paid enough attention to any other markets or industries. Right now the vendors are working on a low volume high profit margins model. Its possible for a new vendor to compete successfully with a high volume low profit margin model, if there is enough demand.

Greed never ceases...........

There's always gonna be the next "extremely rare", "wild-caught only", "highly prized", "collectible", and fancy-named corals. People always aim to maximize their profit no matter how small their expenditures.

Yes, vendors can continue pumping out a once prized coral that has become a dime-in-a dozen, but just like you said: if there is enough demand. It's possible, but probable? Usually once something becomes "common", the demand drops dramatically. The vendors then simply move on to the next more profitable and "in demand" stuff.

[brian3]

Electricity for lighting and water movement is not cheap for the aquacultured coral, look how much we spend on it each month and translate that into a larger facility. Not sure how you can make any meaningful margin when selling as low as $30 a pop once you account for all that went into it.

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

There is no reason why more aquacultured corals has to lead to higher prices. Aquaculture increases supply, reduces shipping costs, and reduces losses to mortality.

People who say there is no stopping the price trends have apparently not paid enough attention to any other markets or industries. Right now the vendors are working on a low volume high profit margins model. Its possible for a new vendor to compete successfully with a high volume low profit margin model, if there is enough demand.

Really? No reason at all for higher prices? I’m curious what industry you’d compare this to that is high volume and low cost. Because I can’t think of one really to compare. You make it sound so simple, you should launch a high volume store. Idk what you’ll need. Do you plan on making a few corals grow super fast? If so can you share your secrets because so many corals grow so slow it’d be nice to speed them up? Or do you plan on acquiring huge quantities of corals to grow? What space will you need? What lights, skimmers, grow out tanks or troughs etc? Look around at what people spend on a single tank. Then consider how big a facility you’d need to grow out huge quantities of corals for this hobby. And all the gear, employees, energy costs, taxes, etc. Them compare that to what it costs to collect colonies grown in the ocean for free, and shipped anywhere.

[EMeyer]

Not sure why basic statements about business models are proving so controversial. A business can survive with either high volume, low margin or with high margin, low volume. You can make either model give the same total revenue, on paper. Of course, the details matter in terms of what can be achieved in reality (e.g. maximum coral growth rates, etc).

But the fact that there are online vendors, coral farms, and hobbyists who grow and sell corals for $5-$10 each means it can be done. I've almost never spent more than $20 for a frag, and most have been closer to $10.

So it is possible, and in principle can be as profitable a business model as the current low volume, high profit margin model. No one said it was simple to start a business, regardless of the model.

But this discussion is about the inevitability of high prices. I am arguing it is anything but inevitable.

(I confine all the above comments to common corals. There are always going to expensive corals on the list as a result of rarity, growth rates, or difficulty making frags)

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

Not sure why basic statements about business models are proving so controversial. A business can survive with either high volume, low margin or with high margin, low volume. You can make either model give the same total revenue, on paper. Of course, the details matter in terms of what can be achieved in reality (e.g. maximum coral growth rates, etc).

So you just point out why it is "controversial". Because it is an overly generalized statement that isn't based on anything. Most corals people want to buy aren't fast growers. Most SPS and LPS, and even some zoas don't grow fast at all. So its super easy to say "high volume" but in reality the only way that one could really achieve that is through a very large and expensive facility. That won't suddenly make corals cheap.

But the fact that there are online vendors, coral farms, and hobbyists who grow and sell corals for $5-$10 each means it can be done. I've almost never spent more than $20 for a frag, and most have been closer to $10.

I too haven't spent a ton on most corals, between scooping them up at the end of frag swaps from hobbyists not there looking to make big profits or just buying no namers from the LFS. However using hobbyists selling cheap corals as an example of success is disingenuous, they aren't in it for a profit. And Businesses can't be sustained on $10 xenia frags.

So it is possible, and in principle can be as profitable a business model as the current low volume, high profit margin model. No one said it was simple to start a business, regardless of the model.

Anything is possible when you just write out whatever you want on paper without really creating a business model to prove it out.

(I confine all the above comments to common corals. There are always going to expensive corals on the list as a result of rarity, growth rates, or difficulty making frags)

And there's the rub, you just excluded the vast majority of corals hobbyists like buying.

[d2mini]

I'll you this whole colony for only $50! It's a steal!!!! Who's in?

[jbvdhp]

Funny you mention this. I was just talking to a buddy of mine and we used to buy Indo colonies like this about 2.5 years ago for 125-175$ all day.
This efflo colony cost me a whopping $125.
I can't WAIT until this Indo ban is over if ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by jbvdhp

Funny you mention this. I was just talking to a buddy of mine and we used to buy Indo colonies like this about 2.5 years ago for 125-175$ all day.
This efflo colony cost me a whopping $125.
I can't WAIT until this Indo ban is over if ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea I think if Indo opens back up I’m immediately setting up a stock holding tank and ordering a couple boxes of coral.

[EMeyer]

Originally Posted by sde1500

Most corals people want to buy aren't fast growers. ...
...
And there's the rub, you just excluded the vast majority of corals hobbyists like buying.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, because you are incorrect.

If you were to count all the coral in all the hobbyists' tanks, WD, HW, and whatever other nonsensical name of the week would make up a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the corals.

The corals you are talking about cost more specifically because of their rarity.

In other words, your statement is the exact opposite of the accurate description. The vast majority of corals that hobbyists buy are *not* rare high-end corals. Theyre common, fast growing corals.

If this board didnt have its' policies on URLs I'd link a dozen examples of coral vendors selling things like Sinularia, Pocillopora, and Xenia for well over $30 each. And like every other market, the price at the bottom affects the price all the way up to the top.

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, because you are incorrect.



If you were to count all the coral in all the hobbyists' tanks, WD, HW, and whatever other nonsensical name of the week would make up a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the corals.



The corals you are talking about cost more specifically because of their rarity.



In other words, your statement is the exact opposite of the accurate description. The vast majority of corals that hobbyists buy are *not* rare high-end corals. Theyre common, fast growing corals.



If this board didnt have its' policies on URLs I'd link a dozen examples of coral vendors selling things like Sinularia, Pocillopora, and Xenia for well over $30 each. And like every other market, the price at the bottom affects the price all the way up to the top.

Except I never used “rare high end”. I said slow growers. But maybe you’re right and the majority here don’t want that. It’s probably just an anomaly that the SPS forum is the most active coral forum here.

You’re completely glossing over any equipment costs. And I’m confused as to why. You say there are two models that can be applied; high volume low price, or low volume high price. And in some manner sure, some corals are easy to grow fast and cheap. Doesn’t mean it’s cheaper to grow GSP or Xenia in aquaculture as compared to harvesting from the ocean. And if a grower chooses to use valuable limited space for them, they are choosing to limit the more sought after LPS or SPS corals, that REGARDLESS of name command a higher price. A hobby coral aquacultureist lost her entire business last year due to electric fire. The risks and costs are so much greater idk how you can say it wouldn’t cost more than wild collecting. And you haven’t provided any details beyond you saying it shouldn’t be.

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

The hobby is moving to a more substainable future. Get use to it.

This.

As an avid diver, who dives all over the world, I'm torn with our hobby. We are not paying anywhere CLOSE to the true "cost" of our corals. I wish wild corals were 5x more expensive. This would encourage further aqua-culturing and lead to an overall improvement, and reduced prices, for our hobby.

[Fourstars]

Originally Posted by Zalick

This.

As an avid diver, who dives all over the world, I'm torn with our hobby. We are not paying anywhere CLOSE to the true "cost" of our corals. I wish wild corals were 5x more expensive. This would encourage further aqua-culturing and lead to an overall improvement, and reduced prices, for our hobby.

Considering we are in the middle of the sixth great mass extinction, I agree. The bill will come due sooner rather then latter. One thing that helps me with the hobby is the realization that our tanks are like seed banks, some corals will only survive because of the hobby. I would be fine with ALL wild collection being banded world wide. Okay guys, what you have in your tanks is all your going to get, so what are you going to do about it?

Let the flames begin

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

Considering we are in the middle of the sixth great mass extinction, I agree. The bill will come due sooner rather then latter. One thing that helps me with the hobby is the realization that our tanks are like seed banks, some corals will only survive because of the hobby. I would be fine with ALL wild collection being banded world wide. Okay guys, what you have in your tanks is all your going to get, so what are you going to do about it?

Let the flames begin

Agree with you 100% on banning wild collection word-wide. The death I've seen first hand diving over the last 20 years is heart wrenching. So many in the hobby don't realize how many fish are collected just to have a single fish survive to make it to the LFS...

Here is an true adult giant clam. Picture taken January 2018 in Indonesia. About 5-6' across... I "think" that's a carpet anemone to the right for size reference. Don't see these anymore. Very glad that most or all clams these days are aqua-cultered. Forgive the crappy white-balance I had on this shot.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by FSJGUY

I dont join any local clubs tbh.. Dont care too.. So i have no idea about whatever club he sponsors lol... All i know is i wrote a long bad review about his shop... Funny thing is i used to know him from petland before they kicked him out of the store i bought some discus and other fresh water fish there.

As for where i get my corals its the petco in dale city. Right bow there frag tank is fairly empty they sold alot of corals recently.. I just bought a silver dollar sized Hollywood chalice from em for 25$ and i got two frags of a Blue/grape acropora, i also got my purple cespitulara a month ago from them. Right now they are selling all their leather corals for 50% they are all fairly large devils hand or finger leathers.. For 15$ each.. They are about 4 inchs in diameter for some of them.

They still have a few acroporas and cespitilaras and a couple basic chalice corals left.. They have a reverse superman monitpora for 25$.. And a neon greenish cabbage coral..

But like i said ive also gotten bubble corals torch corals hammer corals and so forth from this petco..

their salt water tanks are stocked with tons of fish too. they have 3 flame angels, 4 kole tangs, a purple tang, clown tang, sailfin tang and the rarer spotted sailfin tang, they have 2 blue hippo tangs, as well as tons of other fish.

Id check it out when you can, as i said though the corals are kinda depleted atm lol i bought alot recently so did a few other people.. Its just one like 50g frag tank it isnt some reef dedicated store but its my go to place.

These are just half of the corals ive gotten from petco

This is my Hollywood chalice i got 2 days ago for 25$

[url=https://ibb.co/ZSYr2nt]

This is my purple cespitulara i got a month ago i believe it too was $25. it was half this size it grows very fast

[url=https://ibb.co/yXb1DJK]

This is a bad pic i should taken it closer but do you see that tall frogskin acropora the neon green one in the back ? Thats an ORA frogskin like 3 inches tall i got from petco for $50

[url=https://ibb.co/SXcydJ2]

This purple torch coral i got from petco for $35, and the neon green cabbage coral behind it i got from their misc pile for $15

[url=https://ibb.co/sRTtMrW]

This like 100 polyp fire and ice zoa colony i got for $25

[url=https://ibb.co/sQt3YpN]

And this fairly good sized blue/purple bubble coral i got for $40

[url=https://ibb.co/fkDjDdB]

Do you have any local reefers around you? IMO you way over payed for all those corals. They're all extremely common and grow like weeds. I'd sell you big chunky frags of that Frogskin for 20 bucks all day long.

We're lucky to have a really big reefing community here in Houston. Lots of great shops but also some really good groups of hobbyists that sell and trade with each other all the time. I was practically giving away colonies of Battle Corals Twilight Dragon recently. That sells for $70 an inch. I was selling large frags of WWC Yellow Tip for $40. Jawbreaker mushrooms for $100 that would normally sell for $200. I traded a colony of Jawbreakers for a WWC OG Bounce Mushroom that was easily worth $800. Never in a million years would I have spent that kind of money. I don't think I've ever spent more than $100 on a coral.