sand question

piranhaking · 01/21/2006, 12:11 AM

Im working on a 75 gallon saltwater aquarium for my school. THe tank currently has about 2 or 3 inches of crushed coral substrate( i know its a terrible choice, but it was there when i started working on the tank.) Since were on a limited budget they wont let me completely redo the whole sand bed with sugar fine sand, but they did ok me to buy 60 lbs (dry weight). My question is would i be better off to just add the sugar sand to the top of what is there, or to remove some of the crushed coral that is currently in there?

bertoni · 01/21/2006, 12:25 AM

I would remove all the crushed coral. Otherwise, you're just burying a lot of organic debris that will rot, and then the CC will work its way to the top over time.

dlish89 · 01/21/2006, 04:36 AM

I would agree with bertoni.

dlish89 · 01/21/2006, 04:38 AM

Where are you located ? I have some sand I will give you for the school.

piranhaking · 01/21/2006, 02:39 PM

thanks for the offer, but im in Tennessee.

dlish89 · 01/21/2006, 02:50 PM

Oh well, good luck on your project.

crpeck · 01/21/2006, 03:34 PM

Where in Tennessee? There are active reef clubs all through TN. Maybe we could help.

Cathy

piranhaking · 01/21/2006, 11:27 PM

Cookeville.

Fast Fred · 01/21/2006, 11:32 PM

Consider going bare bottom?

Red Serpent · 01/22/2006, 01:13 AM

You should save and use some crush to reseed the new sand. When you remove the crush coral save some of it and rinse it out with salt water to remove as much junk as possible. Then put it into clean womans nylons cut into around 8" lenghts and tied both ends. Spread these bags of crushed coral back around the tanks bottem. Cover them with the new sand after you have added some salt water back into tank. Make sure to do a finnal rise on the new sand with salt water.(so the fresh water does not kill bacteria in your old crush coral) This will help your tank because you did not remove as much of the bio filter. Then in about 3 weeks remove 1 or 2 bags a week untill they are all out. I did this to my tank and it worked very well.(had no large spikes in my water levels)

crpeck · 01/22/2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by piranhaking
Cookeville.

Anything east of Nashville is east TN to me. On the RC Discussion forum page, below the sponsor forums is "other forums". Look in the reef club forums and you will see both a Mid Tennessee and an East Tennessee Reef Club. You should be able to find reefers close to you. Club members and/or sponsors may be willing to help you out since you're doing the tank for your school.

The sand is just the beginning. Once you adopt a tank, you'll keep thinking of all kinds of things to add or do. The reef club in your area can really help you get discounts at vendors, coral frag trades or give aways, and just a local source of shared knowledge and support.

Good Luck!
Cathy

piranhaking · 01/25/2006, 08:16 AM

thanks everyone, i think i have talked him into getting 90 lbs of sand now, another problem im having is the other person working on the tank doesnt see some things the way i do and we are having some disagrements about a few things about the tank. She was working on the tank before i was, but i dont think she did the research i have. I put a post up about the details of the issues here . Any help would be apreciated. Links to articles is what i really need though, because a post or two agreeing with or disagreeing with the views i mention in there wont really help me much because they wouldnt carry as much weight with someone already in doubt. thanks ahead of time everybody.

piranhaking · 01/25/2006, 08:21 AM

i think that if we added enough water current and good enough skimmer to go bare bottom we could do the sand several times over. I had that idea, but i think that would be to expensive and option. Thanks for the idea though.

bertoni · 01/26/2006, 12:23 AM

One thought to keep in mind is that there are a lot of ways to run a successful tank. There's a member here (PaulB) who has a 30-year-old reef tank with a reverse-flow UGF, and no measureable nitrate problem. He does have sponge prefilters, too, but really, the point is that it can work.

As far as plenums go, I would avoid one. I think a thin sand layer is much easier to maintain, and looks better.

The main problem with the coarser substrates is that they accumulate debris in the areas between the chunks, which can lead to nitrate problems. I don't think you're going to get much of an in-depth explanation on a rather mundane point like that. I did write some notes on substrate choices that are here in the NTTH forum.

piranhaking · 01/26/2006, 08:12 AM

i considered the reverse flow with a prefilter like that. Does he have many fish in the tank or mainly just inverts? Part of the reason i want to do a plenum is that the tank has a sizeable fish load and im sure they will want to add to near the limits of what can be kept, and there is no sump no refugeum so there is no nitrate removal unless i add a plenum or dsb. I would do a sump, but again the budget is an issue. thanks for the help.

bertoni · 01/26/2006, 08:20 AM

I thought he had a sizeable fish load. Undergravel filters are actually pretty amazing in the amount of ammonia they can handle.

piranhaking · 01/26/2006, 09:03 PM

what did he have for nitrate removal? a remote dsb in a refuguem or macro in a refuguem or anything like that or just alot of water changes?

bertoni · 01/27/2006, 02:34 PM

I think he had a sizeable load of live rock and a slow-flow UGF. Maybe some macroalgae somewhere. Hmm, don't know the specifics.

piranhaking · 01/27/2006, 09:51 PM

well the tank im dealing with has very little live rock (10-15 lbs in a 75 gallon) and some base rock that has been in there for a month or two, so probably isnt seeded yet. Still no where near enough rock yet though. I would say that having a slow flow would help prevent anything from making it past the prefilters. also what size substrate? crushed coral? sugar sand?

bertoni · 01/27/2006, 10:21 PM

I forget the precise size, but sand won't work with an UGF. It's on the order of chunky crushed coral.

piranhaking · 01/27/2006, 10:31 PM

thats what i figured, but i didnt know if reverse flow could work with sand sorta along the lines of a fluidized bed filter if there was a screen to keep the sand out of the filter plate

Paul B · 01/28/2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

i considered the reverse flow with a prefilter like that. Does he have many fish in the tank or mainly just inverts? Part of the reason i want to do a plenum is that the tank has a sizeable fish load and im sure they will want to add to near the limits of what can be kept, and there is no sump no refugeum so there is no nitrate removal unless i add a plenum or dsb. I would do a sump, but again the budget is an issue. thanks for the help.

Piranhaking, My reverse UG filter has been working since 1972, I have dolomite which is like crushed coral. I run it slow and I think it will eliminate nitrate like that because some areas will be lacking in oxygen thereby growing anerobic bacteria.

My fish load is a 6" moorish Idol, a 3" long nose buterfly, a 3" clown and about eight or ten assorted gobies, pipefish etc.
The tank is 100 gallons, (there are pictures in my gallery)
I also have a shallow trough above my water which grows algaw which is removed if it becames full. This trough is a new addition only about a year old and it is an experiment. The nitrate was zero before it's addition. I also have no refugium or sump but I do have a large homemade skimmer and I use ozone.
There is also some macroalgae and plenty of corals both hard and soft.
Have a great day.
Paul

piranhaking · 01/28/2006, 11:17 PM

i didnt realize they were run slow enough to have anerobic zones, but then again i dont know much about rfugf's. I wonder how much of a difference it would make though by only having a backpack filter with a skimmer (which is just a cup with micro bubbles rising under it from the pump that sends water into the filter). Its very interesting though to hear all the different methods people are using sucessfully.

Paul B · 01/29/2006, 03:53 PM

Piranhaking, I am fairly sure that mine is the only one running running like that and there are no studies on them. The went out of fashion because people try to use them the way we did on fresh water 40 years ago. They will not work for long that way.
Mine is the oldest reef here so I know it can work,
Have a great day.
Paul

01/21/2006, 12:11 AM	#1
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	sand question Im working on a 75 gallon saltwater aquarium for my school. THe tank currently has about 2 or 3 inches of crushed coral substrate( i know its a terrible choice, but it was there when i started working on the tank.) Since were on a limited budget they wont let me completely redo the whole sand bed with sugar fine sand, but they did ok me to buy 60 lbs (dry weight). My question is would i be better off to just add the sugar sand to the top of what is there, or to remove some of the crushed coral that is currently in there?

01/21/2006, 12:25 AM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I would remove all the crushed coral. Otherwise, you're just burying a lot of organic debris that will rot, and then the CC will work its way to the top over time. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/21/2006, 03:34 PM	#7
crpeck Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 1,729	Where in Tennessee? There are active reef clubs all through TN. Maybe we could help. Cathy __________________ Cathy Current Tank Info: IM Fusion 40/AI Hydra 26

01/21/2006, 11:32 PM	#9
Fast Fred Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Northfield, NJ 08225 Posts: 1,170	Consider going bare bottom? __________________ Ya know, for a clown fish, you're not very funny! Member of the New Jersey Reefers Club Current Tank Info: 125g Reef Ready AGA /55g Top Fin Tank for a sump/refugium/ LifeReef Skimmer/ Changing over to SPS only

01/22/2006, 01:13 AM	#10
Red Serpent Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Henderson, Nevada Posts: 96	You should save and use some crush to reseed the new sand. When you remove the crush coral save some of it and rinse it out with salt water to remove as much junk as possible. Then put it into clean womans nylons cut into around 8" lenghts and tied both ends. Spread these bags of crushed coral back around the tanks bottem. Cover them with the new sand after you have added some salt water back into tank. Make sure to do a finnal rise on the new sand with salt water.(so the fresh water does not kill bacteria in your old crush coral) This will help your tank because you did not remove as much of the bio filter. Then in about 3 weeks remove 1 or 2 bags a week untill they are all out. I did this to my tank and it worked very well.(had no large spikes in my water levels) __________________ Some times you have to pick up the pieces of someone elses failures to make some thing GREATER. Current Tank Info: 55 gal Reef Tank, 75lbs Live Rock, 50 lbs Sand, 15 gal DiY Refugium/Sump, Killer hang on overflow by Hurricanefilters, Lighting with Ordit 4x65watt power compacts

01/21/2006, 04:36 AM	#3
dlish89 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Galt , CA Posts: 93	I would agree with bertoni.

01/21/2006, 04:38 AM	#4
dlish89 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Galt , CA Posts: 93	Where are you located ? I have some sand I will give you for the school.

01/21/2006, 02:39 PM	#5
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	thanks for the offer, but im in Tennessee.

01/21/2006, 02:50 PM	#6
dlish89 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Galt , CA Posts: 93	Oh well, good luck on your project.

01/21/2006, 11:27 PM	#8
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	Cookeville.

01/25/2006, 08:16 AM	#12
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	thanks everyone, i think i have talked him into getting 90 lbs of sand now, another problem im having is the other person working on the tank doesnt see some things the way i do and we are having some disagrements about a few things about the tank. She was working on the tank before i was, but i dont think she did the research i have. I put a post up about the details of the issues here . Any help would be apreciated. Links to articles is what i really need though, because a post or two agreeing with or disagreeing with the views i mention in there wont really help me much because they wouldnt carry as much weight with someone already in doubt. thanks ahead of time everybody.

01/25/2006, 08:21 AM	#13
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	i think that if we added enough water current and good enough skimmer to go bare bottom we could do the sand several times over. I had that idea, but i think that would be to expensive and option. Thanks for the idea though.

01/26/2006, 12:23 AM	#14
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	One thought to keep in mind is that there are a lot of ways to run a successful tank. There's a member here (PaulB) who has a 30-year-old reef tank with a reverse-flow UGF, and no measureable nitrate problem. He does have sponge prefilters, too, but really, the point is that it can work. As far as plenums go, I would avoid one. I think a thin sand layer is much easier to maintain, and looks better. The main problem with the coarser substrates is that they accumulate debris in the areas between the chunks, which can lead to nitrate problems. I don't think you're going to get much of an in-depth explanation on a rather mundane point like that. I did write some notes on substrate choices that are here in the NTTH forum. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/26/2006, 08:12 AM	#15
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	i considered the reverse flow with a prefilter like that. Does he have many fish in the tank or mainly just inverts? Part of the reason i want to do a plenum is that the tank has a sizeable fish load and im sure they will want to add to near the limits of what can be kept, and there is no sump no refugeum so there is no nitrate removal unless i add a plenum or dsb. I would do a sump, but again the budget is an issue. thanks for the help.

01/26/2006, 08:20 AM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I thought he had a sizeable fish load. Undergravel filters are actually pretty amazing in the amount of ammonia they can handle. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/26/2006, 09:03 PM	#17
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	what did he have for nitrate removal? a remote dsb in a refuguem or macro in a refuguem or anything like that or just alot of water changes?

01/27/2006, 02:34 PM	#18
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I think he had a sizeable load of live rock and a slow-flow UGF. Maybe some macroalgae somewhere. Hmm, don't know the specifics. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/27/2006, 09:51 PM	#19
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	well the tank im dealing with has very little live rock (10-15 lbs in a 75 gallon) and some base rock that has been in there for a month or two, so probably isnt seeded yet. Still no where near enough rock yet though. I would say that having a slow flow would help prevent anything from making it past the prefilters. also what size substrate? crushed coral? sugar sand?

01/27/2006, 10:21 PM	#20
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I forget the precise size, but sand won't work with an UGF. It's on the order of chunky crushed coral. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/27/2006, 10:31 PM	#21
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	thats what i figured, but i didnt know if reverse flow could work with sand sorta along the lines of a fluidized bed filter if there was a screen to keep the sand out of the filter plate

01/28/2006, 11:17 PM	#23
piranhaking Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 321	i didnt realize they were run slow enough to have anerobic zones, but then again i dont know much about rfugf's. I wonder how much of a difference it would make though by only having a backpack filter with a skimmer (which is just a cup with micro bubbles rising under it from the pump that sends water into the filter). Its very interesting though to hear all the different methods people are using sucessfully.

01/29/2006, 03:53 PM	#24
Paul B Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 15,549	Piranhaking, I am fairly sure that mine is the only one running running like that and there are no studies on them. The went out of fashion because people try to use them the way we did on fresh water 40 years ago. They will not work for long that way. Mine is the oldest reef here so I know it can work, Have a great day. Paul __________________ I used to get shocked when I put my hand in my tank. Then the electric eel went dead. Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971