Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter.

[DKKA]

Jerel, and others,

Even if zooplankton is hard to catch and not very nutritious I would think an algae scrubber, or refugium would be producing much more than just zooplankton. Wouldn't there be lots of different types of microplankton, protozoans, bacterioplankton, etc. and all their associated eggs, sperm, larvae, fecal pellets, etc.

Dan

[Mark]

Jerel and others,
Scrubbers and sumps full of Caulerpa seem to achieve the same thing, but a scrubber is different in many ways. When you're dealing with turf algae over Caulerpa, you are dealing with an entirely different beast. Turf alga are very very nutrient competitive alga. They'll go to town on your nutrient levels, believe me. The neat thing about them is, that they're growth rates can adapt to the change in feeding/stocking levels quickly. As for yellowing compounds being released into the water, that only becomes a problem when the reefkeeper gets lazy about scraping the screen. Growing turf algae is a bit more of a science than Caulerpa. They do best when exposed to both wet and dry environments repeatedly(think about the stuff growing on pier pilings). They also grow the fastest when kept short. Think about the tangs, snails, damsels constantly mowing algae turfs down on a reef. To co-evolve with this kind of grazing, turf algae have adapted to grow very quickly and uptake nutrients very quickly(otherwise they'd be toast). As the algae grows longer without grazing, the growth slows considerably. Thus nutrient uptake slows as well. Essentially, as long as you are diligent about scraping the screen(mimicking aggressive grazing), you'll have one heck of a nutrient uptake machine. But if you don't scrape diligently: an unmaintained ATS is about as effective as a skimmer that hasn't been cleaned. And yes, yellowing will occur if you don't scrape regularly(think Smithsonian, those ATS's would not get scraped for months at a time, hence why the reef went to hell). So the criticisms about ATS's only occur if the unit/algae is not maintained properly. And on that note, I'd wonder how well a skimmed tank would do if the skimmer wasn't cleaned for several months.

Caulerpa simply can't compete with turf algae. Furthermore, Caulerpa has other associated downsides. To get the same amount of nutrient uptake from Caulerpa against a given turf screen size, you'd have to have a lot more caulerpa and a bigger refugium/algae filter. Doug has already mentioned the risks about Caulerpa going sexual as well. Furthermore, as long as you maintain a turf screen, the turfs will not colonize your display tank. I can't say the same for Caulerpa, and have always needed a tang to keep the caulerpa in the display tank in check. But that's just my personal experience with Caulerpa.

Another fundamental difference between a refugium/Caulerpa filter and an ATS, is that critters like pods are not encouraged to grow in an ATS. In a fuge/caulerpa filter they are. By allowing pods to graze on the turfs, you are not exporting the nutrients. The grazing from pods simply reintroduces those nutrients to the reef tank. That is why a monthly freshwater dip is recommended for the turf screen. Again, they are both algae filters, but they are entirely different beasts. You have to approach them differently.

My point is this. Skimming is popular, and people often spend a good chunk of change for the super-skimmers(becketts) to get the best nutrient removal, right? The more you can export, the more you can feed and help your corals grow. Plus the more powerful the skimmer, the less chance of algae problems, etc.

Ok, so let's apply the same attitude towards algae filtration. Caulerpa works, but turfs are much much more efficient at nutrient uptake. Comparing Caulerpa to turfs is like comparing an airstone skimmer to a beckett skimmer. So, as more and more people accept the benefits of incorporating algae growth into their filtration methodologies(like caulerpa in the sump), and add to that the desire for bigger, better, more powerful... I simply hope the trend will got the same way. That eventually, people will want to incorporate something along the lines of an ATS into their system. Unfortunately, it's much easier to put a light over the sump and dump some caulerpa in, than it is to create an intertidal surge area for turfs to grow. And 'that's the rub'. I hope to see Adey lighten up on the patents, or at least help encourage more people/companies to build ATS units. But I get the feeling that will not happen.

Fwiw, I love skimmers. And with my ATS systems, I always felt good about the fact that if one of my clams decided to spawn, I could hook up one of the skimmers in the closet to help remove the stuff if I had to. But I also enjoyed seeing the proliferation of life in the ATS tank without the skimmer. I had to see it with my own eyes, but yes indeed, the diversity in my ATS tank was much richer than it was in my reef that was skimmed alongside a refugium. Sponge growth alone was phenomenal. And I am not exaggerating when I say I usually had a few creepy crawlies on my arm when I was fiddling in the tank. And no matter how much food I dumped into it, I never saw any negative side effects. Like Eric B., I even began feeding insane quantities to the tank just to see what would happen. The only thing I noticed was that my fish were getting fatter! I know Shimek believes that a skimmer will not remove pods and other active critters, but I was simply amazed at how much life developed in the ATS tank.

Shane,

I'll dig it up and scan it for you.

[Cnidae]

I’ve got a few comments on a couple statements

“So, in your infinite wisdom, why is my stuff growing if I don't feed like you do and haven't for a really long time?� The answer is simple you don’t have any demanding corals. From all the post’s I’ve seen of yours you seem to be mainly focused on stony corals, in my opinion one of the least demanding for secondary food other than zooxanthellae. Try a food demanding coral and watch it die if you don’t feed heavily.

“In order to keep water quality under control, you also need heavy filtration. Heavier than an algae based system can provide (unless it is 10 times larger than the tank it supports).� I’m wondering what’s a heaver filtration than a scrubber; I’m sure a skimmer is not. I’ve owned 5 different skimmers and none of them were able to keep up with my feeding. I only used my ATS for about 4 months but in that time I was able to cut my water changes from 1 week to every 2 weeks.

In my opinion if your not going to feed heavily there is no need for you to pursue algae filtration. I don’t think the benefits would be visible and you may end up with algae crashes because of the low nutrients. If you feed heavily and our oceans sure have a ton of food in them then a scrubber would be ideal. I took my scrubber off because I had to set it up all funky in my sump and couldn’t fully close my doors to my stand. I’m building a new one that will fit right in and won’t make any noise when the screen dumps. It will also be a two-part unit. One part will be the scrubber and below it and off to the side will be an area to grow mangroves. They’ll be growing in a setting with a DSB and some LR. Once I have it setup I’ll be working on my surge devices and I’ll have a non-traumatic pump feeding them.

As far as scrubbers being able to handle a spawning event, in my opinion your corals should take care of this for you. Chemical warfare in your system should be to such a minimum that it shouldn’t matter. If you have a huge chemical warfare going on in your system you should fix your problem instead of relying on filtration to take care of it for you.

[Bomber]

Mark, that was fantastic!

Jerel

[Mark]

Thanks Jerel!

I hope I didn't sound too biased. Fwiw, I think there's many ways to have a successful reef. Heck, in the same room I had my ATS system on one end and my heavily skimmed/DSB/refugium reef tank on the other end of the room. They both did great.

[Flatlander]

I agree, great post Mark. Explained it better than I.

I hope everyone does not get the opinion I am algae based filtration biased also. I am just experimenting with the scrubber. I may well give it to my friend at an lfs to run on his show tank. This is because of the damage to its body.

I may also move my stock to another tank before it settles in. I am thinking of a standard 180, with high flow, a sump, my skimmer, a shallow/course sandbed. It will be completely open top & lit with a pair of vertical 400 watt pendants. {yea, I know I am a glass top pusher regarding UV, }

My 170 may become home to many assorted goldfish in the winter & in the pond in the summer. So, as seen, I am not a follower of one belief only.

[Steve Tyree]

Gregt,

I see. Fertilizer for algal growths. I actually tried adding the 'Micro Algae Grow' product from Florida Aqua Farms to one of my zonal systems. Stopped that real fast. If you want to stimulate algal growths, that is a very good product. Basically a good inorganic fertilizer for algae. Not what I need.

On a side note- anyone know if mud based sediments (soil) leach humic compounds ? Would very fine sand (oolitic) not leach potential humic compounds ? Looking for a good substrate material for a cryptic sediment bed.

Steve Tyree

[LiquidShaneo]

Steve,

Yes, soil based sediments with an organic content will leach humic compounds as will any other organically laden substrate. It's covered in detail in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...088486-0602323

Here's a good URL for using soils for freshwater planted aquaria:

http://home.infinet.net/teban/

hth

Shane

[scot]

Steve,

What about silica sand? Rob Toonen's article makes it sound pretty good.
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen9.html

[Frick-n-Frags]

Awesome info and opinions!!

This is getting more encouraging. My goal is to get macro populations established in most of my tanks. I have decided to encourage more diversity after meditating on what is turning up in these two threads. (ie stop pulling out all the Halimeda even though IMO it is as fickle as Caulerpa)) I am also getting a cool Dictyota-looking clump of stuff(phaeophyta for sure) and some shorter wiry red algae that I will now try to propagate around.

From Mark's killer explanation, I think a micro based turf scrubber really is a "canned" filter, very controlled and matches the nutrient load quickly. I sure don't want that even though it is a b@d@ss filter! I want to stay below the microalgae nutrient threshold, so an ATS wouldn't function properly for me at all.

DKKA, I really think that is what my coral live on too, bacteria on garbage and all the different zooplankton flying around my tanks.
[I refer to any micro-animal life as zooplankton, probably confusing or incorrect, but eggs or spawns are zooplankton to me, in addition to the actual little critters.]

Also, a spawning isn't a catastrophic event by definition, especially if the diversity is there so no one species can blow the system away. And when there are a million little filter mouths, they all get fat that day. But if someone throws a pound of flake food in my system, well then c-ya bye, I'm toast.

I have noticed that 5 minutes after I take a stick and stir the dust in the corner of the SPS tank and kick it up into the jet stream, all the Acros that are usually closed during the day open up to eat. EB saw Cataphyllias deep down in still, funky water, super show color, (ST would drool ). That was his only conclusion was they were consuming mostly bacteria/detritus life. I would be willing to bet even the big meat corals eat mostly little stuff even though they can handle bigger stuff.

BTW I haven't watched my, Euphyllias, Blastomussa, Caulastreas, Galaxia, Hydnophoras or Turbinarias die yet. Quite the opposite. LPS are the same thing as SPS IMS (In My System) and they all eat the same thing.

[gregt]

Also, a spawning isn't a catastrophic event by definition, especially if the diversity is there so no one species can blow the system away. And when there are a million little filter mouths, they all get fat that day. But if someone throws a pound of flake food in my system, well then c-ya bye, I'm toast.

Apparently you haven't seen many spawning events in a tank before. I've seen the aftermath of one and I can tell you I'd rather deal with the pound of flake any day.

[Frick-n-Frags]

What was it? It had to have been a big one or many.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Yeah, I don't dispute the realm of possibility, but I typically have only seen a jet of something here or there or a bunch of little white dots, and agreed not enough of it to grey the water. I don't have any concentration of any one species or any one huge enough individual (I hope).
I really think I am bulletproof except for my macros crashing, which is still my main concern.

[gregt]

If memory serves it was this one here:



Not really all that large. Just about everything downstream was fried. Like I said, I only saw the aftermath, but it was the equivalent of a forest fire.

[Frick-n-Frags]

wow greg, that is a nice coral. I wonder if there wasn't some chemistry involved to fry everything. especially if it was downstream it probably got it first pass and maybe no filter could have helped because filtering is after the fact. However, if this toxic spawn were quickly filtered out, maybe its effect would be minimized and localized by quick filtering whereas my system could take the big doodoo cya bye stick a fork in it's archives what's that awful smell, route.

I was just totally thinking about nutrient spikes, like if the whole spawn spiked a bacteria bloom or something like a pound of flake food would do.

That really is a nice coral, have you fragged it yet? (by law I have to ask you that )

[gregt]

It's not my coral, sorry. And no, I don't have a frag.

I'd agree with your assessment. There is a chemical issue to deal with as well as the added nutrients.

This is a case where I'd much rather have the large skimmer to get it out faster, but you are right in saying that it's not going to prevent any damage. You've got a problem either way.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Still it is a nice coral...........especially nice because it is in that other person's tank

[mgk65]

Originally posted by Frick-n-Frags
I really think I am bulletproof except for my macros crashing, which is still my main concern.

FnF:

As you probably know, there are macros other than caulerpas that don't crash all at once or at all.

If your nutrients are too low, caulerpa may indead crash, but others would just whither away and die, not creating a massive green spawn.

Chaetomorpha (spaghetti macroalgae) is one that is very popular that grows like crazy in my tank and refuge and even the tang likes it.

mgk

[Cnidae]

F n F I'm guessing this is a reply to my comment "BTW I haven't watched my, Euphyllias, Blastomussa, Caulastreas, Galaxia, Hydnophoras or Turbinarias die yet" All the corals you listed are easy to get to grow with low feeding, even with no feeding. Try some high food demanding corals (azooxanthellate) and I'll say it again, watch them die with low to no feeding.

[martinojon]

I have a 46 Gallon Bow front and only use an algae scrubber, and it is doing great. My levels are all at 0, the tank is cristal clear and my fish and inverts are thriving and I have never done a water change. In addition I feed my tank/fis very heavy twics a day and an awefull lot. I got my whole set up from www.eztank.com give the guy a call his name is Mark Renki hell explain the whole process to you. To me it really seems like the best system. E-mail me with any questions JohnMartino@mindspring.com . And if you call Mark tell him that John from Revere, MA said hello

[Frick-n-Frags]

Wow it is May and this thread still hasn't died.

Hi mgk, how are you, good to hear some experience with macros other than Caulerpa. Sounds, very encouraging that I won't necessarily get the big macro crash out leaving me with no filter floss
Do you want to swap macros next time we see each other???


Hey Cnidae, now are you saying stony corals can survive with little or no feeding? Make up your mind.
You can set the bar as high as you can and then call this experiment a failure. BTW, my chambered nautilus prop experiment didn't work oh, and did i tell you about the Ceolecanth project, never mind, it went as badly as the thermal vent giant tube worms. Wheeeee!, really, the whole thing may crash anyway and you will get to ultimately ROTFLYAO, only time will tell.

[Frick-n-Frags]

John, keep me posted on the progress of your reef please. I see that it is a new setup but it seems like it is off to an awesome start. I would be really curious to see how the various things, especially the algae, cycle in and out of your system as time goes on. How much are you cleaning the scrubber plates? How much are you feeding? No in-tank micro blooms of any type???

This sounds similar to Doug Lowey's setup if I am understanding some of the underlying philosophies here. Does it seem that way to you?

[mgk65]

FNF:

I emailed you a couple of weeks ago with no reply.

You missed quite a get together in Pittsburgh....

I have plenty of the chaetomorpha when you are ready. I can even send some to you via priority mail.

mgk

[Cnidae]

FnF you just don’t get it.

[Kent E]

I know this thread is very old. I am considering an ATF. I want to know the long term effects. Is everyone still running them?