N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[daveonbass]

I can wet skim, but I usually end up just getting saltwater, and not much skimmate. But it was wet skimming better when I had the maxjet 1200. It harder to do now being run off the quietone 3000.

[tntneon]

hi reefers ,

Here's an update of my little tank using the BP's ,
at last some decend pics due to the new camera i have canon 550D
I'm still learning with this camera , try to shoot some pics tonight of PE when i have less reflections in the glass.

greetingzz tntneon

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by tntneon

Hi PowerKW ,

I to don't know the mechamism behind the burn tips withy carbon dosing ,
but i do know that my tank has an alkinity of 9.3 to 9.6 (sometimes lower 8.5 to 8.9) and in both cases i don't see anything bad happening to my corals.
As to growth rates they are good to very good in both cases of alkinity.

Does anyones have link or picture of burnt tips ?

greetingzz tntneon

this article has pictures of burnt tips.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...nftt/index.php

Jeremy

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

this article has pictures of burnt tips.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...nftt/index.php

Jeremy

This actually makes perfect sense. dKH is a measure of carbonate hardness. We're dosing carbon in a liquid form. In normal situations if dKH rises above 12, we normally see tissue recession esp from Porites, and Montiporids. Obviously, this is a carbon overdose issue.

DJ

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

This actually makes perfect sense. dKH is a measure of carbonate hardness. We're dosing carbon in a liquid form. In normal situations if dKH rises above 12, we normally see tissue recession esp from Porites, and Montiporids. Obviously, this is a carbon overdose issue.

DJ

I'm not following you. Dosing a carbon source dosing is not related to carbonate hardness except for the fact that high alk levels will cause burnt tips and tissue recession. With the burnt tip phenomenon, the amount of the carbon source being dosed to get to a low nutrient level doesn't matter, the alk level is the value of concern. Your comment seems to indicate that dosing a carbon source will increase carbonate levels - not true at all. A carbon source (vodka, vinegar, sugar, vit c, etc...) is not in any way the same as carbonate which is used for building skeletal structure. Coral health and increased growth can easily be maintained at and above 12dkh (when carbon source dosing isn't being implemented). In fact, quite a while back Tatu had sent me an article that showed SPS growth rates continued to increase as alk levels were increased all the way up to 24 and 25 dkh. When dosing a carbon source to bring nutrients to a low level it's often observed that many SPS will exhibit burnt tips (tissue recession and browning of the tips) as well as tissue recession in other areas if the alk level is above 8 dkh. When the alk level is maintained between 7-8 dkh these negative reactions don't occur. It has absolutely nothing to do with a carbon source overdose. Here is a quote from the article I posted:

Burnt tips - Some users of organic carbon dosing have reported the tissue loss at the ends of their SPS. These "burnt tips" have recovered once the user reduced the alkalinity levels within their tank to alkalinity levels closer to natural seawater (7-8 dKH), pictured below. Unfortunately, the root cause for this is not known.

My question is have the corals exhibited the same reaction of burnt tips with alk levels above 8dkh when the carbon source is the biopellets. Again, that's why I'm asking those whom are using the biopellets what their alk levels are maintained at.

Jeremy

[tntneon]

-jlinzmeier your right , carbon dosing is form of organic carbon to feed bacteria , if carbonate was a form of carbon dosing we didn't had to dose vodka or others at all because the bacteria would have enough food.

greetingzz tntneon

[bertoni]

I agree that dosing carbon in the form of vodka and dosing alkalinity, either via carbonate or something like NaOH, are very different things.

[daveonbass]

...now I'm regretting adding sand to my tank. It looks so stupid...im gonna have to go back and move it elsewhere.

[daveonbass]

and more on subject...dosing carbon, and cobonate hardness are two different things. I'm sure we all understand that.

[Dejavu]

Congrats on be voted June 2010 Thread of the Month. Not only will this treaded be add as a sticky, it will also be added to the blog. Once again congrats

[Yogre]

Congrats to tntneon for the thread of the month! It's been very informative to me, and I'm currently running N-P Biopellets... hope to post my experiences soon!

[daveonbass]

congrats to all that have contributed...and mostly to "tntneon" for starting such a long standing, informative and porduct innovation thread.

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

I'm not following you. Dosing a carbon source dosing is not related to carbonate hardness except for the fact that high alk levels will cause burnt tips and tissue recession. With the burnt tip phenomenon, the amount of the carbon source being dosed to get to a low nutrient level doesn't matter, the alk level is the value of concern. Your comment seems to indicate that dosing a carbon source will increase carbonate levels - not true at all. A carbon source (vodka, vinegar, sugar, vit c, etc...) is not in any way the same as carbonate which is used for building skeletal structure. Coral health and increased growth can easily be maintained at and above 12dkh (when carbon source dosing isn't being implemented). In fact, quite a while back Tatu had sent me an article that showed SPS growth rates continued to increase as alk levels were increased all the way up to 24 and 25 dkh. When dosing a carbon source to bring nutrients to a low level it's often observed that many SPS will exhibit burnt tips (tissue recession and browning of the tips) as well as tissue recession in other areas if the alk level is above 8 dkh. When the alk level is maintained between 7-8 dkh these negative reactions don't occur. It has absolutely nothing to do with a carbon source overdose. Here is a quote from the article I posted:



My question is have the corals exhibited the same reaction of burnt tips with alk levels above 8dkh when the carbon source is the biopellets. Again, that's why I'm asking those whom are using the biopellets what their alk levels are maintained at.

Jeremy

Just using deductive logic. What two elements do carbonate hardness and liquid carbon dosing have in common. Carbon and oxygen. Really, unless there is some nebulous rxn occuring involving other elements, this really can be the only possibility. Now I guess the argument could be made, and Randy would have to back me on this with some equations, that there could be a peroxidative issues from the O3, but it seems fairly simple to me that additional C added to the system is the culprit, much in the same way that additional C added thru buffering causes identical problems.

DJ

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by tntneon

-jlinzmeier your right , carbon dosing is form of organic carbon to feed bacteria , if carbonate was a form of carbon dosing we didn't had to dose vodka or others at all because the bacteria would have enough food.

greetingzz tntneon

Agreed. Feeding bacteria is the end result, but what happens before the bacteria consume the liquid carbon source, while it's still in the bulk water?

Maybe this is why we aren't seeing this burned tips problem with the pellets - because the C, theoretically, never makes it into the bulk water.

DJ

[daveonbass]

i wasn't aware that vodka, sugar, or vinegar dosing could raise the Alk.????

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

i wasn't aware that vodka, sugar, or vinegar dosing could raise the Alk.????

They can't. I'm referring to total systemic C (carbon).

DJ

[daveonbass]

.............? but I thought it was the high Alk that ws the cause of the tip burn, and if the carbon doesn't raise the Alk, then how does the carbon effect it?

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

.............? but I thought it was the high Alk that ws the cause of the tip burn, and if the carbon doesn't raise the Alk, then how does the carbon effect it?

I'm posing the postulate that maybe the excess carbon (C) in the system as a result of elevated carbonate (CO3) maybe responsible for the tip burn in instances where carbonate hardness is elevated above 12 dKH.

This is a separate situation from the C that is added through liquid carbon dosing, but the results (burnt tips) are the same.


DJ

[daveonbass]

weeeeeell....I'm gonna plead the 5th on this one...the chemistry mixed with the biology is over my head. so for now I'll just try to lower my trates. :P

[KingBlingTx]

Okay. I have a question about using this product. The mfg claims it works for both saltwater & freshwater. However, efficient skimming is also really needed. So, since you can't run a skimmer in freshwater is it ill advised to use this in freshwater or is the need for skimming in salt-water not as critical as everyone may be thinking?

[daveonbass]

from what I remember from my planted tank...you CAN skim freshwater...but it's really lame. But I would assume that if it does work with freshwater, which I don't remember reading, then the ned to skim would be less, and that the natural fauna would uptake the bacteria. But again I would find them unnessessary in a fresh "planted" tank...cause in those systems you WANT high N and P levels.

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

They can't. I'm referring to total systemic C (carbon).

DJ

There your right DJreef
, total mol% of C will rise inside the tank .
But all carbon organic or inorganic are bonded to other elements.
organic carbon dosing is like the carbohydrates we uptake , it is the energetic food (fuel).
I don't think the organic carbon changes alot between the adding to the water and the bacteria consuming it (advise of some more advanced chemists would be nice ).

inorganic carbon (co2 , hco3 ,h2co3,co3...) in ower case HCO3 only changes in mol% and in form when PH is altered (relation alkinity / Ph / CO2).

greetingzz tntneon

[rickyjai8]

so does this work????

[rickyjai8]

also can this be use in a phoban reactor sorry i just saw this and didnt have the time to read everything and i really wanna try this =)

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by rickyjai8

so does this work????

yes it works fine for me , definitly the advantages (water clarity , polyp expansion , reduction of nitrates in my case ,growth and color increase and algea esp. GHA in my case) of carbon dosing w/o the daily hassle of dosing daily carbon to your system.
But in order to work good you need a good oversized skimmer and keep doing waterchanges regulary (weekly to 2-weekly 10 %).
One tends to delay the waterchanges when water is so clear , but when i wait to long (3 weeks) i'm experiencing little bit of cyano returning into the system.


greetingzz tntneon