Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm going to give the hook and line another try today (and one more technique). Judging from initial attempts, I doubt I can catch them all. If that's the case, I've got to find another way to kill ich in my display.

I did some research regarding manatee grass' tolerance to lower salinity, particularly in the range considered hypo salinity (11-14ppt), that is needed to break the ich life cycle. This looks possible! If so, I can treat the display tank with hypo salinity, bypassing the whole gramma-catching problem. I'll have to remove invertebrates to the QT, but it's doable.

Here's a quote from an online article:

"Syringodium filiforme is euryhaline (tolerant of widely ranging salinity). Syringodium filiforme does not occur in fresh or low salinity water, although it can withstand periods of low salinity (10 ppt) (Phillips 1960)."

Going forward with this idea, I'll have to map out the plan carefully, but I think this could be the best solution. It's more risky and complicated, but I can't risk any more fish lives until I KNOW the ich is gone.

[Michael Hoaster]

I remember awhile back someone posted that I could never have a successful seagrass tank. I'm pretty happy with it! Manatee Grass, Turtle Grass and Shoal Grass, all successful.



Overall the tank's in good shape, excepting the ich. Note the latest anemone position, and seagrass density.



Lush freakin' seagrass meadow? Check.



Red palate.



My baby's finally growing up…



I'm really loving the tree grasilaria. It's so sculptural!



All six grammas still uncaught. They all seem close to fine, except for the scratching. Tough little beauties!

[HuskerBioProf]

I might have missed it, but did you end up getting the "purple" Condylactis from Blue Zoo Aquatics? Or which one did you end up with?

I'd really like to have one in my 12. I have had them in past tanks and they seemed pretty amenable to some oopses and tank fluctuations. The Condy in a macroalgae-covered rock is just iconic Caribbean, to me.

[Chasmodes]

Yep, looking pretty successful to me Michael. To me, the definition of successful is your enjoyment of the tank. That fact that others here like it too is kinda proof, IMHO.

I was thinking about how you could catch them...what about lowering the water level below the cracks and holes in the background, then just net them?

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, I got a purple condylactis anemone, visible in the above pics. I didn't end up getting it at blue zoo though - I was able to buy one 'in person' at my LFS. It seems pretty happy, though after two-plus years, it still likes to wander around. It seems to do best with bright light, medium current, and weekly feedings.

Are you reading through my thread? If so, I'd love to hear more from you-a biology professor at Nebraska. With this tank, I'm attempting to forgo most of the inherent gadgets of the hobby, and rely instead on natural processes. No sump, no skimmer-everything happens naturally, right in the display. I'm also trying to close the circle of nutrient recycling, by filling in the food chain at the bottom.

I look forward to seeing how your tank progresses!

[pfan151]

Have you tried the hook and line recently? I think if you try hyposalinity it will kill most of the macros in there. I'm sure some could handle it for a little bit but I doubt any could for the amount of time that is needed to kill ich.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thank you, Chasmodes! For me, defining success included having seagrasses thriving and reproducing, specifically, and generally, just keeping everything alive and happy. I'm still tweaking the ecosystem, adding diversity at the bottom when I can.

I too have considered lowering the water level below the holes. I think they may just go into their holes and be trapped, high and dry, with no good way for me to extract them.

[Michael Hoaster]

Hey pfan151!

Yes, I tried hooking them over the weekend. No luck. As my niece Lyla is fond of saying, "Your fish have outsmarted you".

Thanks for your input regarding hyposalinity. I was wondering if anyone was going to chime in on that.

I agree, the macros may not like it. What makes this idea more complicated, is the things I'll need to do to compensate for it. Basically, I'll be converting my display into a QT, using hypo salinity to kill the ich. So, to compensate, I'll need to convert my QT into a display, or maybe more accurately, an Ark. All the inverts, and any macros I want to keep, will need to be moved over, until the the treatment is over. Doesn't that sound like fun?

I've been trying to wrap my head around the sequence of actions required to do this. Here's what I'm thinking so far: Do a water change on the display, replacing removed water with freshwater. Use removed water to replace the water in the QT (ark), so conditions match the display. Then transfer all inverts and some plants to the Ark, where they will hopefully survive until the treatment is over. Over the course of a week or two, more water changes are done in the display to lower salinity to hypo levels, where it will stay, for a time I haven't yet determined, to insure the ich is GONE. Then raise salinity back to pre-treatment levels and return everyone to their place in the display. Piece of cake, right?

[HuskerBioProf]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Yes, I got a purple condylactis anemone, visible in the above pics. I didn't end up getting it at blue zoo though - I was able to buy one 'in person' at my LFS. It seems pretty happy, though after two-plus years, it still likes to wander around. It seems to do best with bright light, medium current, and weekly feedings.

Are you reading through my thread? If so, I'd love to hear more from you-a biology professor at Nebraska. With this tank, I'm attempting to forgo most of the inherent gadgets of the hobby, and rely instead on natural processes. No sump, no skimmer-everything happens naturally, right in the display. I'm also trying to close the circle of nutrient recycling, by filling in the food chain at the bottom.

I look forward to seeing how your tank progresses!

I had a Condy that i had for a few years while an undergrad. It was under a cheap T5 fixture and moved around a bit, but seemed happy enough. If it moves around in this tank I won't mind. There won't be anything that it could sting and hurt too bad.

I have been reading through this thread. I think I got all the way through as of a few weeks ago, but some of the details I have forgotten. I must admit that my expertise in biology is not very ecological or zoological -- my PhD, postdoctoral research, and current interests are all centered around biomedical research (in particular immune responses against viruses). However, I have been diversifying a bit, and currently teach some introductory biology and zoology classes along with my specialties. I like the idea of building up each step of the food chain, self sustaining bacteria to feed the sponges, fish eggs to feed fish and shrimp, etc. I have a big sump on my tank, but mostly to add water volume to prevent fluctuations and as a habitat for pods and bacteria. I would like to keep some filter feeders without much "feeding." I certainly don't plan on much in terms of water changes or fancy equipment for this tank.

[Michael Hoaster]

One of the things that fascinates me about what you are doing, is that it's a 1/15th scale model of what I am doing! I have no doubt I can learn from your experience. It will be very interesting to see how scale effects the differences in our little boxes.

Your avatar suggests you are also a coach, there at Nebraska. What do you coach?

[pfan151]

Could you maybe just slowly drain the water so they won't realize anything is going on? Maybe feed them as it's draining to keep them out of the holes and plug up as many of the lower ones as possible? I'm assuming the wall panels can't be moved? It would just suck if you had to basically start over with just a few frags if you went with your hypo plan.

[HuskerBioProf]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

One of the things that fascinates me about what you are doing, is that it's a 1/15th scale model of what I am doing! I have no doubt I can learn from your experience. It will be very interesting to see how scale effects the differences in our little boxes.

Your avatar suggests you are also a coach, there at Nebraska. What do you coach?

Nope, not a coach. Just a fan of Husker football. My avatar is our head football coach, Mike Riley (although I don't know if I would turn down the $3M/year salary, if they offered it).

[Michael Hoaster]

pfan151, your idea of draining slowly could work, possibly.

I think there are several possible solutions to my problem. The trick is choosing one with the least number of downsides, as well as defining which downsides are worse than others. Storing and/or replacing 180 gallons of water is a pretty daunting problem. Maybe I should list my possible solutions, and their downsides, to see if I'm missing something.

"It would just suck if you had to basically start over with just a few frags if you went with your hypo plan." - pfan151

It wouldn't suck that bad, starting over with a few macro frags. I've done it before, and I'm doing it now. If you look at pics of the tank from a month or so ago, you'd see hypnea panosa (the blue bushy stuff) overgrowing pretty much all the way across the front of the tank. Also, grasilaria hayi was getting overgrown as well. I removed them both. Now, they are growing back. When I had the Atlantic Blue Tang, he pretty much wiped out all of my macros. Once he was gone, they all came back.

But let's consider the possibility that all of the macros were completely wiped out. Would that suck? Not really. Actually, it would give me the chance to reconsider which macros I really want! I'd definitely take a long hard look at caulerpa racemosa!

My main concern is keeping the manatee grass alive (my pivotal species). I'm not really worried about the turtle and shoal grasses. In fact, losing them would be a bonus, since I plan to get rid of them anyway. Having them die back (sort of) naturally, like they might in a natural hypo salinity 'event' may be a better alternative to manually removing them.

Again, thanks for your input. It helps so much to discus this stuff!

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by pfan151

Could you maybe just slowly drain the water so they won't realize anything is going on? Maybe feed them as it's draining to keep them out of the holes and plug up as many of the lower ones as possible? I'm assuming the wall panels can't be moved? It would just suck if you had to basically start over with just a few frags if you went with your hypo plan.

That was my thought as well, a very slow drain of the water level so they're aren't alarmed. I hadn't thought of the water storage issue. I guess it depends on how much space you have or a need for containers. Once you get to the right water level with no difficult hiding spaces, it should be much easier and less time consuming to catch them.

Water storage: perhaps a bunch of cheap plastic storage bins from HD? After you're done, you can always store stuff in them. Speaking from experience, they come in handy storing stuff that should be thrown away.

[Michael Hoaster]

That's right, you mentioned it first, Chasmodes. Draining slowly may work.

Water storage is possible I suppose. I'm just not sure I can prevent all of the grammas from getting into holes. Extricating them poses great risk. I would need to figure out a way to plug all the holes, before a gramma dives in. I'd really almost need to match fish to their holes, so I'd know when someone was out or in. Seems tricky and complicated. Maybe not. Hmm…let me think about it.

Is it a better methodology than hypo salinity in the display? I guess I need to weigh the pros and cons.

[HuskerBioProf]

I am a fly fisherman/fly tier, so I had some spare size 22 hooks around to try and catch a rogue wrasse that was terrorizing my tank and had at least one confirmed kill. I stuck a piece of clam onto the hook and dangled it into the tank with 7x tippet. Let me tell you... harder than hitting the late summer Trico hatch in western Montana. I eventually had to drain my water into rubbermaid tubs and carefully move all of my SPS-covered rocks out to catch him with a net.

Not quite the same as trying to remove fish to go fallow, especially in your tank with the rock wall. I think removing the most important inverts to QT and going hypo would be the easiest. I don't have much experience with macro algae, but I would be surprised if they were too greatly impacted by the salinity change, if done slowly. We have a few marine algae growing in dishing for teaching labs that have no circulation and get water top offs when we think about it- they have large salinity swings daily and seem fine (although don't grow much).

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I'm just not sure I can prevent all of the grammas from getting into holes. Extricating them poses great risk. I would need to figure out a way to plug all the holes, before a gramma dives in. I'd really almost need to match fish to their holes, so I'd know when someone was out or in. Seems tricky and complicated. Maybe not. Hmm…let me think about it.

I think that perhaps some sort of rock structure that they can hide in as alternative hiding spot options as the water level drops might work. Conch shells, clams, rock caves on the sand bed, etc. could also give them that feeling safe. Also, perhaps each time you drop the water, feed them to keep them active in the open. My guess is that when the water level drops enough, they might opt for better cover.

Then again, if it was me trying it, and if the fish "won", it wouldn't be the first time that a vertebrate with the brain the size of a pea outwitted me . I had a devil of a time catching a red spotted hawkfish out of my old FO tank. I wound up pulling out all of the rock and old coral heads, and he was wedged in one of the coral heads and wouldn't come out (this was way back in my early saltwater days). I had to put the coral head in a bucket with an airstone and turn out all of the lights in the room, pitch dark, until it fell "asleep" and wandered around the bottom of the bucket. When I turned on the lights, I was able to get the piece of dead coral out of the bucket and I had him. Tough little bugger.

[Chasmodes]

By the way, every time you post photos, I am amazed at how realistic it all looks, especially from the side/roots view. I could sit there all day and watch.

[Michael Hoaster]

Some good points, HuskerBioProf and Chasmodes, thank you.

Certainly, treating the tank, rather than catching the grammas would be easier. But I don't mind harder. It's the fish I'm concerned about. I don't think adding various alternative hideouts really helps. Either they don't use them, like my baited, darkened trap, or they do and are just in another hole, that will be stressful and dangerous to them, to be removed. And I seriously doubt I can plug every hole in the fake wall.

One point I haven't made in all this is my very strong desire to kill no more fish. If I can just save these six grammas, it will be such a relief to my soul. Having killed three lookdowns, one gramma and six barnacle blennies is not something I can easily brush off. Ten fish died because of MY mistakes. Am I willing to risk all my macros and seagrasses to prevent more fish deaths? Yes.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks for the pics complement, Chasmodes! It's nice to hear.

Here's another one from the end:

[rucnnefish]

Will the gramma's eat this??

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images...2059K-fish.jpg

[Michael Hoaster]

Good question! Thanks for bringing that to my attention, rucnnefish. It couldn't hurt to combine medicated food with hypo salinity.

[Michael Hoaster]

I have been pontificating on other people's threads. I should really confine my ramblings to my own.

So, a lot of us around here have been in the hobby for a while. We've learned the rules, and we all aspire to have beautiful aquariums. Maintaining low nutrient levels has always been the struggle, fighting to keep algae at bay.

Macro algae tanks are radically different. Instead of fighting algae, you are encouraging it to grow, beautifully. In order to maintain these beautiful plants, you have to feed them. They will deplete the nutrient limited water column of an aquarium. Instead of trying to keep nutrients undetectable, we try to maintain enough, major and minor nutrients to keep our plants happy. THIS is the switcharoo from the Reef Mindset. Instead of starving your aquarium, you're trying to fatten it up!

The Macro Mindset takes some time. It's quite an adjustment. I'm still working on it myself.

How do we provide for these plants? Start with finding out the C-N-P ratio for the plant you are considering. Carbon-Nitrogen-Phosphorus are plants' major nutrients. Fish food itself can provide all of them, but unfortunately, not in the ratio aligned to plant's needs. But there are characters at the bottom of the food chain who'd be happy to help. I think the average C-N-P ratio for macros is something like 300-30-1. How do we maintain these levels? There are several ways to do it.

Here's what I do: I add CO2 by running it through my canister filter. CO2 is plants' preferred form of Carbon. It's the big one. For Nitrogen, I'm dosing potassium nitrate, which is sold as stump remover. Plants and bacteria compete for nitrogen. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Phosphate, is taken care of by fish food. It's so easy. Also consider the minor nutrients, which can be easily depleted. Iron can often be limited in planted tanks. Occasional water changes and/or dosing minor nutrients helps-especially iron.

Another way to reach the ideal ratio would be to reduce phosphate and nitrate, in relation to carbon. The downside of reduction is that you have fewer nutrients to work with, which will limit plant biomass. Less food, smaller plant. It works well for a reef tank!

Well that about does it! From time to time I like to get on my soapbox and ramble a bit. I hope it is helpful to someone.

[Chasmodes]

Great info, thanks Michael! I hope to incorporate this into my oyster tank some day. I think that the artificial oyster reef combined with local macros would be a pretty realistic attempt at the biotope.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Chasmodes! I hope to see your oyster reef come alive some day. Your local, Maryland biotope idea is unique, and I think it will turn out to be beautiful!

I hope the info is useful. Seeing people spend good money on new lighting in attempts to save their macros is a little frustrating. Most of the time, when macros crash, it's not because the lighting is the wrong color temperature, it's because they are starved of a particular nutrient. And there's really only a few to keep up with, so it's pretty simple.

My number one recommendation to the vast majority of macro keepers is this: buy a simple CO2 regulator for less than a hundred bucks. Remember the C-N-P ratio: 300-30-1. Carbon is the big one-300! Most macro keepers do absolutely nothing to supply carbon, other than adding fish food. The most important nutrient to these plants is completely ignored! You cannot expect success if you ignore the most important ingredient.

Nitrogen is the second most important nutrient for plants. As an aquarium matures, the resident bacteria becomes very efficient at consuming nitrogen, in the form of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. This is great for the fish, but not for the plants. In mature tanks, bacteria outcompete plants for nitrogen. So you need to dose it. Plants' preferred form of nitrogen is ammonia, but ammonia is rather poisonous and dangerous. So, a safer-for-aquariums form of nitrogen is needed. As we all know from our lessons on cycling, nitrite is also harmful to fish, etcetera, so that leaves us with good old nitrate-harmless to fish, and food for plants. Potassium nitrate is readily available at hardware stores.

If you have fish, and you feed them, you are already suppling enough phosphate, so nothing is required. If you have no fish, you will need to dose phosphate. The easiest way to do that is to simply add fish food to the tank. You'll have enough phosphate for the plants, and you'll be feeding the bottom of the food chain as well.

The only thing left, is trace elements. Some are added with fish food. Some are replenished with water changes. Buy a simple trace elements supplement in a bottle.

And that's it. Simple.