Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Zach!

Yes, things are challenging right now. But there are also things happening that I very much like. Being rid of two of the biggest pests, the caulerpa and the aiptasias, in the tank is pretty awesome. Not to mention, the ICH of course!

Getting everything back to normal shouldn't be too difficult. Plus, being able to refocus on what I really want, and not what I don't, is pretty exciting.

I lost another gramma yesterday. So I should have four left but I only see two, and none appear to be eating. I think I'm going to lose them all. That may be best for the overall health of the tank going forward. It is a testament to how tough these fish are, that they've lasted so long. In my experience, once fish get sick, they go downhill pretty fast.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Thanks Zach!
I lost another gramma yesterday.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

Losing fish sucks. Reporting it to people following is even suckier. Being judged about it is the suckiest. I'm here to learn, help and show off. I've been educated, entertained, shamed and admired. And that's cool. I knew going in that it's not always a love fest.

Though your 'comment' is discouraging, I will continue to report info I think could be helpful, whether flattering or not. This thread doubles as my tank journal, so I try to record all pertinent events.

[Chasmodes]

Hi Michael.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean anything by the sad faced smiley other than being sad for you that you lost a fish.

I have followed and admired your tank and efforts from the page 1, read every post, and I believe that your philosophy on all of the topics makes a lot of sense. I've learned from you, and from your advice, and I appreciate and thank you for it. I won't judge you or anyone on here at all. Your tank, its story, past, present and future, was, is and will continue to be awesome. That's why I follow...

I'll refrain from emoticon comments in the future. I guess I've used these in the past as a way to stay engaged in the conversation, to let the OP and others know that I'm paying attention, never with ill will. When things get tough for those that I respect on RC, I'll make sure that my comments reflect the support that they deserve.

I wish you the nothing but best of luck in the future.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks, Chasmodes. I appreciate it.

You said some very nice things, and thanks for taking the time to explain.

Good luck to you too!

[Chasmodes]

You're welcome. It was easy, because I meant them.

BTW, about your tank, what is encrusting your manatee grass? Coralline algae? Is it causing ill effects on the grass, or just there?

I'm curious because if it is, then my oyster tank might develop coralline at the lower salinity. That said, I guess it has to be in the tank first, or introduced.

Actually, that leads me to another question. When your tank was at full salinity, did you get any coralline?

[Michael Hoaster]

I have had coralline encrust the grasses before, but this is cyano bacteria, I think, the same stuff encrusting the back wall. It does resemble coralline though.

Coralline algae is dying out in hypo, but I had a lot with my 'normal' salinity of 25ppt (manatee grass' preferred salinity). I've never run this tank at full, natural seawater salinity levels-35ppt. What salinity level will you run the oyster tank?

Don't forget I'm running a calcium reactor of sorts in my canister, with CO2 and cancerous media. I doubt I'd have much, if any coralline without it. I suspect your oyster tank will get a little, but not much coralline, assuming you don't add CO2.

[Chasmodes]

Oh yeah, you did say that. I forgot. Interesting about the coralline. Maybe later in my tank's life it will show.

The Chesapeake Bay salinity varies greatly. My collecting spots range ftom 10-15 ppt in the spring to as much as 22 ppt in the fall. I will adjust to the salinity that I find when I collect. I have a 10g "QT" tank that will hold later additions until I can acclimate them to my tank levels.

Eventually, my plan is to bring it up to 20-25 ppt, the levels further toward the mouth because I'd like a diverse invert population and a shot at tropical strays if I collect further South. I will also pick macros and/or grasses accordingly. It will be a huge experiment.

Fortunately, my star characters starting out are very hardy because of the harsh environment.

BTW, my wife wants a spiny box fish bad! Another reason to increase salinity. Inverts will be in trouble then!

[Michael Hoaster]

A huge experiment sounds fun! So, you're going to collect what you can, in areas you might find oyster bars, right? Collecting local plants and animals to stock your local biotope! I'm looking forward to it.

Keeping local plants in your aquarium is going to look so authentic and natural. Sounds like you've got some cool fish and inverts to work with too.


Today, my tank is still a zombie apocalypse with undead plants and a little cyano. With the ulva, most of the wall cyano is gone. I have two weeks until hypo is over. I think it's going to work out. I can't wait for it to be pretty again! Even prettier if I play my cards right.

Also it's cool finally getting baby mollies. I had, what twenty before, to feed the Lookdowns, and no babies. Now with three, I get babies. They're so cool and tiny, swimming about, eating stuff. Something about small fish in a big tank I really like.

Mollies really have incredible utility for aquariums. They consume algae and turn it into live food for carnivores. This closes a gap between producers and consumers. Food chain stuff yo, Heisenberg!

Which of course brings me back to the old self-sustaining aquarium ideal. How big of a tank, to grow how much algae, to feed how many mollies, to support how many carnivores? The aquarist supplies light, nutrients and current, Mother Nature does the rest.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

A huge experiment sounds fun! So, you're going to collect what you can, in areas you might find oyster bars, right? Collecting local plants and animals to stock your local biotope! I'm looking forward to it.

Keeping local plants in your aquarium is going to look so authentic and natural. Sounds like you've got some cool fish and inverts to work with too.

Yep, I'll check oyster bars, but also grass beds, rocky shorelines, piers and pilings, because although most of the critters prefer oyster bars, they also can be found along other structure. The primary factor with my collecting is access.

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Which of course brings me back to the old self-sustaining aquarium ideal. How big of a tank, to grow how much algae, to feed how many mollies, to support how many carnivores? The aquarist supplies light, nutrients and current, Mother Nature does the rest.

I think that you summed things up well. That's my goal too. I might be able to do something similar but there aren't any mollies in the Bay. But, there are mosquito fish...hmmm... They don't like flow, so I think that perhaps I can find room in the sump for a good supply of food for the main tank.

[Michael Hoaster]

How do you access your collectees? Are you wading, snorkeling or boating? I'd love to hear more about your collecting methods.

I love the self-sustaining ideal, and it's a great way to think about filling in your tank's food chain. Getting all the way there is another matter! I really enjoyed my self-supported atlantic blue tang experiment, but I didn't quite have a sustainable (big enough) food supply to last much more than six months. But what a lovely six months! No pruning duties and a gorgeous, personality fish to boot. I'd love to get another one, but I'll wait to get a bigger tank.

No mollies that far north? I think they're from the Carolinas south. Are you going with a strict biotope?

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

How do you access your collectees? Are you wading, snorkeling or boating? I'd love to hear more about your collecting methods.

Any way that I can. For the Oyster tank, wading or off a pier or dock, using a dip net (I have large ones and small ones), and I have two seining nets. I haven't tried snorkeling for stuff, but I'd give that a go... even for fun if anything else!

I also made extra oyster cultches out of non-matching shells to put in an egg crate box and sink them for the summer. This will attract blennies and other critters. I made two of them, so I can swap them out each time. I got permission to use docks from two people, one on each side of the Bay I will need a collecting partner to help, but basically one person pulls up the box and the other uses the big dip net. Benthic fish will hide in the shells when disturbed and stay in them when you pull out the box. The net is for escapees. I also thought about zip tying bottles to the box. After a catch, I can bring the entire cultch home to put into my QT/Acclimation tank. I also hope to collect inverts like sponges, anemones, hermit crabs and other stuff that way, maybe macros too, especially if I leave them alone for a long period of time.

Now, those pier spots are located on private property but both of them are in the mid-salinity range. I need to find some good private spots further toward the mouth of the Bay. I thought that I'd never get the two that I have, but in less than 2 years, lo and behold, I had them. I wish everything was that easy.

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I love the self-sustaining ideal, and it's a great way to think about filling in your tank's food chain.

Yeah, that is tough but I agree, it is the best way to go, as much as you possibly can. I have an advantage as I'm 1 to 1 1/2 hours from my collecting spots. I can literally get live sand, mud, macros, pods, critters, and even water if I need to.

As far as the biotope goes, yeah, I'm doing a strict one, but it does have flexibility because the Bay has a wide variety of life and also conditions. Because of that, I guess technically it might not be all that strict. By that I mean, it's an oyster reef that I'm doing, but I might collect some marsh denizens (like killies, sheepshead minnows, and mosquitofish) along with the species that I'm looking for. That said, I've caught those species before near oyster beds. My only limitation is that those species need to be caught by me somewhere in the Bay Now, if I get lucky and catch a molly, then that will count! You never know!

Strays show up all the time, some tropical, some temperate species that their range is South of us. For example, crested blennies are common in the Carolinas, but a few specimens have been caught in the Bay (according to records). Were those fish misidentified or did they really show up? Maybe I could get that lucky.

Anyway, my tank stocking must haves for fish are striped blennies (Chasmodes bosquianus), naked gobies (Gobiosoma bosc) and skilletfish (Gobiesox strumosus), a hogchoker (Trinectes maculatus)and apparently, per my wife, a spiny boxfish. The rest depend on what I can find and compatibility with the above species. I'm on the fence about a spiny boxfish. I also will have room in my sump/fuge (45g). I'd love to catch a spotfin butterflyfish, but we will see.

As far as invertebrates go, those depend on my collecting sites, which right now are in mid-salinity locals. I'll keep anything that is again, compatible.

That blue tang was so cool, especially the color transformation. Man was he ever an eater too. I guess to keep one happy, you'd need a caulerpa grow out tank? If I ever hit the lotto and can move to where I can have a really large tank, I'd love a Caribbean biotope where a queen angel will be on top of my list followed by the blue tang, redspotted hawkfish and of course, blennies galore! The oyster reef blenny tank was my dream tank and now becoming a reality, so I guess my next dream is Caribbean.

[Chasmodes]

Michael, how did you attach your ulva to your mud bank? Does it seem to hold up well?

[Michael Hoaster]

Push pins. I fold the ulva a few times where I plan to impale it to strengthen it.

I would guess if there are any mollies in your neighborhood, they'd be inland, in less salty water.

The Queen Angel is another dream fish for me. Another fish for a bigger tank. They have a nice one at my LFS. From what I've read, they're not a great peaceful community fish though.

[Chasmodes]

Cool, thanks. I think that I'll have to use some sort of plastic clips to hold ulva in my oyster tank. I'd also have to check with my NANFA experts that collect near me to see if they've ever found a molly in our neck of the woods. It would be interesting if they did.

I kept a blue angelfish many years ago along with three Centropyge species, and a handful of other types of fish. Everyone got along just fine. The blue was purchased as a juvenile and grew to an adult. It had a ton of personality and was beautiful. I loved that fish. There definitely was a pecking order, but other than a little chasing now and then, everyone appeared happy.

That said, a blue is not a queen. In the wild, they generally occupy different niches. It's possible that all is well but then later when they're fully grown, they may get nasty. I just don't know. But dang, their awesome and worthy of a species tank. Where's that lotto ticket?

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, I think that's the best way to go, with big angels-with smaller but tough tank mates.

With your plastic clips, maybe you could camouflage them with oyster shells and position them on the culches?

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

With your plastic clips, maybe you could camouflage them with oyster shells and position them on the culches?

That's a great idea, thanks!!! Also, for other macros that I can keep near the sand bed, I can build mini cultches to Hide clips.
I don't know if I can keep grasses or not, especially with a hogchoker. So rocky attachment points are the ticket for the macros, I'd think.

Sorry to hijack your thread. What are your plans for your tank moving ahead once the treatment is done? Do you have ideas for a stocking plan? Not much longer to go!

[Michael Hoaster]

Maybe you should wait on seagrass, or try just a small bunch to see how it goes. I'm not familiar with the species you have around there. I agree with the rocky attachment points. I've never had any luck getting macros to attach to anything. What has ironically worked for me is for the macros to starve, die back, then reappear already attached to random spots around the tank, when nutrient levels are adequate. Not exactly a method to recommend!

I don't mind the hijack! Since we're doing similar tanks, the discussion helps both of us.

I am getting excited at the prospect of moving on after hypo! Initially, I'll focus on rebuilding the bottom of the food chain. Then I'll see what macros can bounce back, and focus on what I want to keep or get rid of. I will try to limit the macros this time, so that my dosing goes to the seagrasses. I really want to get them flourish, after I get rid of the turtle grass. For fish, I'd like to rebuild the gramma harem and the barnacle blenny clan. I'd like to try sailfin blennies as well. Two males and four females would be the goal. I think I've finally decided to try the blue chromis-maybe 5-6 of them. I'm not sure yet, but I'd also like a harem of cherub angels- 3 or 4. If I do, I'll probably add another ten pounds of live rock for more shelter and diversity.

It's a lot to think about, so I better get with it!

[Chasmodes]

That sounds like an awesome plan! Thanks again for the suggestions.

[Michael Hoaster]

I think the plan for this weekend is to do what I wanted to do last weekend. I guess I had to work up some commitment gumption. Pretty easy tasks, but some commitment required.

First, I want to try the boiling water thing on the aiptasia anemones on my live rocks in the QT. Regardless of the outcome I will then transfer them to the display, so any remaining 'nems will encounter hypo salinity.

Next, I will take the scissors to the turtle grass blades. This will be the least disruptive method to rid my tank of them. I imagine it could take months and many prunings to finally exhaust their nutrient storage, but on paper, it should work.

I've been looking at different macros, trying to find something that would grow on the back wall. This time I want something slower growing than caulerpa. And I want the seagrasses to have less competition for the nutrients I dose. I suspect I'l try several things and see what works.

[Michael Hoaster]

Okay, commitments have been made.

I did the hot water trick on the aiptasias on my live rocks, then moved them up to the display. I also removed any remaining caulerpa that I found. I did this to kill off the last of the aiptasias, with hypo salinity. What I risk is killing desirables on the rocks, like sponges and red macros. Worth the risk I think.

Next, I got after the turtle grass, pinching them off just below the substrate surface. That was a lot of work. They covered about two thirds of my DSB. Now there is a plenty of real estate for manatee and shoal grass expansion. At first I stopped at the half way point, thinking it may be less traumatic for the tank. Then I thought about it some more. Since the turtle grass was already in a zombie-like state, I figured they might uptake MORE nutrients after being cropped, putting out new blades. Time will tell. The risk involved here is that I'm wrong, and a valuable nutrient uptake mechanism has just been removed and algae steps in to fill the void.

I'm very curious how long it will take to kill off the turtle grass. How many croppings will it take? I guess it will depend on how big the roots have gotten. Bigger means more storage for nutrient reserves. I worried about them dying, deep in the DSB, and what that would do. But after thinking a bit more, I expect the roots will shrink down as they give up that storage, eventually leaving not a lot behind.

So, the adventure continues! More risky moves made to get what I want, and more invitations for algae to make a comeback. Today's actions were one of the last hurdles. Now I wait and watch. Eleven more days of hypo. Wish me luck!

[Chasmodes]

Wow, you've been busy! Good luck and hopefully all of your steps work out as planned. Makes sense to me! I'm excited to see the comeback, so I can't imagine how excited you'll be. Your tank will be fantastic!

Will you buy more manatee grass after hypo or just try and let nature take its course? I was thinking that if you added more, the balance of the competition between it and the turtle grass will shift, with the manatee grass having the ability to gather more nutrients (because of the turtle grass pruning). What do you think?

[Michael Hoaster]

So it does make sense? Thanks Chasmodes! That makes me a little more confident.

More manatee grass would be great, and I think that would help tilt the balance, but Florida Pets hasn't had any in stock for quite awhile. I'll keep checking. What I'll probably do is strategically move some around. I've done a little of this before and they seem to respond well. I'll also try to favor them with some root tabs. And, I'll reinstitute the dosing scheme, which has been drastically reduced for hypo.

It's been a wild ride and a fascinating journey, employing nature to help me solve some problems with this tank. I had no clue that hypo would not only eradicate ICH, but also aiptasias and caulerpa. Bonus!

Some would argue that hypo isn't natural, but in the inland lagoon I'm modeling, hypo events do happen naturally. So it's natural in my tank, but not in a reef tank! Haha! Not sure I can come up with a natural reason for a 'charcoal event', but that is the extent of the man-made solutions I used. Wait, I used boiling water too. How about a 'temporary hydro thermal vent event'? Yeah, no. "This guy thinks he can do anything, and then call it natural", is what some of you must be thinking!

I think the biggest factor that has (thus far) kept me out of Algaetown, is the Ulva. I am very fortunate that it was able to survive and grow. Another, more subtle factor was my resisting the urge to 'clean up' less desirable macros that were hanging in there, doing their jobs. The Chaeto in particular performed well. It didn't thrive, but it adapted and continued to grow. And believe me, it isn't pretty! It was very tempting to remove it, when I was pinching the turtle grass, yesterday.

So the tank is uglier than ever right now, but I still believe it's gonna make it! Ten more days…

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Some would argue that hypo isn't natural, but in the inland lagoon I'm modeling, hypo events do happen naturally. So it's natural in my tank, but not in a reef tank! Haha! Not sure I can come up with a natural reason for a 'charcoal event', but that is the extent of the man-made solutions I used. Wait, I used boiling water too. How about a 'temporary hydro thermal vent event'? Yeah, no. "This guy thinks he can do anything, and then call it natural", is what some of you must be thinking!

Yep, I agree, the way that I see it, you're trying to have as natural of a mini ecosystem as you possibly can. Since nobody can completely duplicate nature, we also rely on artificial measures to achieve our goals. What is different between our attempts at mini ecosystems, we're trying to keep all of our animals alive at the top of the food chain, while in nature that just doesn't happen.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Chasmodes!

Yes, I'm trying to take advantage of the natural processes that are there, ready to help me, both for day to day good system health, but also during this special treatment process. I used the ulva as a fast-growing export plant as a way to temporarily compensate for the loss of plant mass. It's pretty cool, using nature-based solutions, rather than man-made ones-no dangerous copper or other chemicals. Not that I've never resorted to chemiclean warfare, I'm just saying it will be cool if it works!