Did I Just waste $2800?? Solaris I5

[BeanAnimal]

How about applying a little less bias...

1) Photos of a MH tank would be better lit than Sanjay's Photos indicate as well.
2) Where do you get "extremely" well and compared to what? He said the corals grew. It does not mean that they would NOT have grown under other lighting, or grown slower.
3) So it was an older model. What are the PAR differences. They are different LEDs. Its not like they trippled the output PJF.
4)Hey said they are capable of growing corals. Notice how he as reserved furhter comment on how COMPETATIVE they are.

Your bias in these matters, and the manner in which you use the words of others to further your point is bothersome.

[tufacody]

Originally posted by Garage1217
I know about cameras, I posted that fact a few back Also have you been diving? Reefs are lit very evenly, light variation depends on depth & shadows created by ledges or waves, not continuous hot & dim spots.

And as I said, I saw a small model on a small tank when they first came out, not sure if they improved colors but what I saw was simply how much blue you wanted to add to the white to create an effect. I did not see the beautiful purples & other vivid color that certain mh bulbs provide & that t5's really provide well.

I liked what I saw color wise, do not get me wrong, it was decent but not what I would run on my tank. And the hot spots, I thought it was just the small fixture, but man after seeing that large light I was really dissapointed. Way to focused.

As phil said, when they get the RGB tech down to produce a more full spectrum adding in these amazing colors I desire, then I will look more into a fixture when the prices drop by at least 1/2 of the current price or more.

I have logged about 10 reef dives. I think MH and Solaris best replicate the look of a natural reef, for whatever reasons. But natural sunlight is not always the best for bringing out colors.

I do know what you mean about the hots spots, I'm not oblivious to that. I kinda of think of them as spotlight areas, and places where I can place the most light-needy corals. I can tell you that in actuality these spots are much more prominant in pictures than they are in person. Also, my Solaris is just support by the legs. I think it would look even better if I raised it up some, but since the corals have been doing so well I haven't messed with it yet. The Solaris does provide a nice shimmer, which would improve if I lifted her a little. Eh, maybe this weekend I'll do that.

As for spectrum, you've lost me again. The white, green and yellow bulbs do in fact create a full spectrum which is not that diferent from MH. I believe these tests are out there, but as the onwer of both systems I can tell you that I can do a pretty hood job of matching the solaris color to that of my MH system. I do tend to like my tanks a little more on the blue side though, and even my MH system always has T5 actinics running.

[pjf]

Solaris did all of us a service by creating a market for high-end computer-controlled LED fixtures. It could have made low-end on/off fixtures. Instead, Solaris aimed high. New entrants to this market, such as Aquaillumination and Sfiligoi, have chosen to compete on the same high playing field and hope to deliver even better products.

The lighting industry has had a long and uneven history in this hobby. It started at a lower end, struggles with cheap imports, and continues to be burdened with “skewed stats.� Some segments are driven more by price than by innovation. Some cannot even compete with DIY'ers. It has only been recently that companies, such as Sfiligoi, have marketed computerized MH & T5 fixtures that could duplicate natural lighting cycles.

Despite the reception that early LED adopters are getting, I hope that this promising market continues to aim higher. The entry of high-end vendors, such as Sfiligoi, into this market is a positive sign. Another positive sign is the change of strategy by PFO. Solaris units are now manufactured with quality components and processes in the USA.

Layer3switchguy, you are top notch in my book. You are honest and thoughtful in a forum racked by cockiness. As many of the postings show, self-reflection is not a trait often possessed by detractors (i.e., http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...g#post11757478).

Here are more pictures of LED-lit tanks that you asked for: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...4#post11936934. There are more pictures I am sure. Whether illuminated by MH, T5 or LED, let's focus on the positive.

[layer3switchguy]

Originally posted by pjf
Solaris did all of us a service by creating a market for high-end computer-controlled LED fixtures. It could have made low-end on/off fixtures. Instead, Solaris aimed high. New entrants to this market, such as Aquaillumination and Sfiligoi, have chosen to compete on the same high playing field and hope to deliver even better products.

The lighting industry has had a long and uneven history in this hobby. It started at a lower end, struggles with cheap imports, and continues to be burdened with “skewed stats.� Some segments are driven more by price than by innovation. Some cannot even compete with DIY'ers. It has only been recently that companies, such as Sfiligoi, have marketed computerized MH & T5 fixtures that could duplicate natural lighting cycles.

Despite the reception that early LED adopters are getting, I hope that this promising market continues to aim higher. The entry of high-end vendors, such as Sfiligoi, into this market is a positive sign. Another positive sign is the change of strategy by PFO. Solaris units are now manufactured with quality components and processes in the USA.

Layer3switchguy, you are top notch in my book. You are honest and thoughtful in a forum racked by cockiness. As many of the postings show, self-reflection is not a trait often possessed by detractors (i.e., http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...g#post11757478).

Here are more pictures of LED-lit tanks that you asked for: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...4#post11936934. There are more pictures I am sure. Whether illuminated by MH, T5 or LED, let's focus on the positive.

PJF,

Thanks for the links to the pics... I must admit, while the tanks were certainly impressive, the colors coming off the lights seemed to wash out the color on the SPS corals... I suspect that could be the camera and it's settings, but I suspect it has more to due with the fixture itself...

BTW, distributed computing? Are you connected to BOINC? I'm part of SETI@home and Cells@home. Glad to see I'm not the only geek on this thread!

[bergzy]

Originally posted by layer3switchguy
I'm part of SETI@home and Cells@home. Glad to see I'm not the only geek on this thread!

whew!

i am also glad to see i am not the only nerdnick here on rc as well. i've been on the seti thing since 2001(?)!

[BeanAnimal]

Nice puff piece PJF. Strip out the rhetoric and lofty talk, you have not said much about LEDs or the topic of this thread.

SOLARIS did not create the high end lighting market. They have attempted to join it. They did not create microcontroller based lighting, they simply adopted the technology that others are using. They are not doing anything amazing, they are using technology targeted at the commercial marketplace and stuffing it into an aquarium fixture. I have had microcontroller based lighting and sunrise/sunset moon rise/set/phase since long before the SOLARIS was thought about. Dimmable T5, MH, LED technology has been around long before this hobby adopted it.

What we are seeing here is the logical next-step or evolution of any product. Our hobby is tiny, if non-existent in the reality of product development and innovation. We use what other industries use, we rarely innovate. SOLARIS is not an innovation, it is an adoption.

The reception that "early adopters" get is no different here than it is in any niche or market. In most cases it is not the adopters that are being scrutinized, it is the technology that they have adopted. Folks like yourself who mount the bandwagon and blindly promote the cause are the ones who end up causing the most contention. Since day one, your posts on this subject have been clearly biased and based on many skewed or unfounded premises.

You have been an LED proponent since the initial release of the SOLARIS. You have spent considerable time promoting LEDs and detracting from from MH and Fluorescent lighting. The problem is that you have used the same biased tactics and logic in the process. I recall many threads on the older generations of SOLARIS lighting where you each time you contented that it HAD already come of age and MH were DEAD. Yet, each time the real numbers were looked at, the reality was different than the rhetoric. All along, MOST of us (who you call dishonest anc cocky) have said that the LEDS will most certainly come of age and most of your contentions WILL certainly eventually come true. Knwoing it well one day be true and preaching that is already true is what differs us from you.

Who is dishonest and cocky here PJF? You attack people with kindness and rhetoric and act like we are all "bashing" a great thing. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most us want to discuss facts but do so without the bias and rhetoric. Your slanted posts and changing people words to fit your agenda make that very hard to do.

The reality is that the SOLARIS fixtures have had more than an acceptable number of problems. The reality is that they (PFO) marketed products using skewed numbers and unfair comparisons. They fact is that many of the fan club members refuse to speak about these products in an unbiased manner. I would sure hope that the new generation of SOLARIS was an improvement on the past generations... it should be expected. The question is simple. Has the product improved enough to make it worth the money? Value is more than just cost. Growth, ease of use, durability, customer service, etc...


Most of us have nothing at all against LED technology or the adoption of that technology, we are just asking that the discussion be kept unbiased and honest.

I will be more than happy to use LED, OLED, EL or whatever technology proves to be viable and cost effective. I will make that decision based on an honest appraisal of the facts, not infomercial type posts that are meant to sway peoples opinion about a product.

[layer3switchguy]

Hey guys, you know what the sad part about this whole thread is...??? I'm just a stupid guy who plunked down a mortgage payment on a light fixture, and was looking to get some honest, insightful feedback on my decision. Instead, my original post has mushroomed into this ridiculous death match about LED -vs- the universe. Good lord guys...

If I could close my own thread, I would... This has stopped being constructive, and has become divisive. The fixture will show up on Oct 1st. I'll throw it on top of my tank, and make my own conclusions...

To all of you compelled to hijack this thread and turn it into a "holy war" between the MH and T5 camp -vs- the LED camp. Please stop. Get that fired up and passionate over something useful like helping a sick child, the environment, spending time with a veteran (which I am) or the financial crisis the country faces. In the end, what lighting choice we put on top of a plastic or glass container with water and fish is trivial to the real problems of the world....

Stop, pause and think about how insignificant these arguments really are... I for one consider this thread closed... It's no longer useful, and only manages to insight anger. This is a hobby guys, it's supposed to be fun....

[reef2]

heres a little note. pfo isnt going to be making ballast and pendents anymore. seems they r going to be focusing on led only.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by layer3switchguy
To all of you compelled to hijack this thread and turn it into a "holy war" between the MH and T5 camp -vs- the LED camp.

Many of us are not in a camp

I look forward to hearing your opinion on your product and the reasons you choose to keep it or return it.

with a veteran (which I am)

Thank you for your service.

Stop, pause and think about how insignificant these arguments really are...

They are still arguments nonetheless... the topic will likely always take this route until the LED fixtures can, without a doubt be proven to be viable and a better value. What will be left is the arguments about the companies that produce the individual products and price points as well as what constitutes value.

[tufacody]

Layer: I apologize if I you interpreted my feedback as anything other than insightful and honest. I thought it was. Since you spent a mortgage payment, I thought you'd like to hear from someone who actually has experience with multiple lighting systems, including the Solaris.

Bean, you clearly are in a camp. Whenever I read your posts I expect to go look at my 180 and expect to find everything dead, lol. But instead I see a healthy, thriving tank.

I'm not sure what doubt you think I should have left about LED. I've given you my cost analysis, which sure makes sense to me. I've shown you pictures of my corals. What doubt is possibly left about the viability of this system?

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by tufacody
Bean, you clearly are in a camp. Whenever I read your posts I expect to go look at my 180 and expect to find everything dead, lol. But instead I see a healthy, thriving tank.

No actually I am not in a camp. I can not speak to your interpretation of my comments, that is up to you.

To date, most of the LED tank photos posted here and at other sites are softies. Will SPS grow under them? I have no doubt they will. The newer the generation of fixture, the better chance they have of thriving.

I'm not sure what doubt you think I should have left about LED. I've given you my cost analysis, which sure makes sense to me.

Great it makes sense to you. I had to question your initial post to get you to use real world numbers, not best/worst case numbers from the PFO website. Even in doing so you down played the reality that the majority of the SOLARIS fixtures out there are not going to continue to perform as expected without costly maintenance THAT IS NOT covered. Will the new generation fix this? I hope. Thus far the PFO track record is pretty poor with regard to longevity and trouble free operation.

As for photos of you tank.. Nobody said that the fixtures can not sustain life. Again, the problem is that it is less light than the setup you are trying to compare it too. Each and every time PAR has been tested, the story is somewhat different than the advertising and hype would have you beleive. How will this new fixture fair? I dunno... I have not seen the PAR numbers so I can not comment. I see the PFO advertising saying it is better than a 400W MH... but then again they have been saying that since the first beta unit was shipped. To date, each claim has fallen short of the advertised reality. Again, we are not saying they can't grow corals. The point is that the numbers being used to compare them to MH are not right.

What doubt is possibly left about the viability of this system?

You have CLEARLY not read my posts with comprehension and clearly do not understand my feelings or my position on LED lighting. Instead you are trying to portray my comments as what they are not.

If you took the time to read what I have said here and in other thread, you would understand that I have no problem with LEDs and/or their use as aquarium lighting. On the contrary, I can't wait for an LED based fixture that has a price and effectiveness that I can find VALUE in.

Who is in a camp?

[pjf]

BTW, distributed computing? Are you connected to BOINC? I'm part of SETI@home and Cells@home. Glad to see I'm not the only geek on this thread!

I'm afraid I'm not connected to BOINC but I did work at Xerox PARC & ARPAnet when I was attending college and have continued with networking, including co-penning a couple of nerdy books (ISBN 9781931836647, 9781928994848). I do like high-tech, including the latest lighting technology, regardless of whether they are a good value.

I see that you fly. The Air Force Academy is nearby and I've considered joining the flying club there. That may be my next money pit after my aquarium and my 1989 Japanese 4wd.

[BeanAnimal]

do like high-tech, including the latest lighting technology, regardless of whether they are a good value.

There is nothing wrong with that...

Do you find value in the Cisco CM and CME products compared to say.. Avaya?

[tufacody]

Nope, no way I've downplayed the issues with the I4. I've had many of them. My is being replaced with the I5. The problems I've had have been annoying, but never compromised the viability of the light.

I don't disagree that the Solaris will get better and better, which is more than I can say for MH.

What faulty PAR testing are you referring too? Frankly, I have only seen one and that was by an independant tester. People raised issues, but I don't think anything compromised the reported results. You say that you have not seen the numbers so you cannot comment, but you have commented plenty.

I'm also not sure where/when Solaris has compared the I series to a 400 watt MH. Can you refer me to that? My understanding was that they best compared to 250 watts, which is what I would concur with. Please refer me to that. Frankly, that would surprise me too. I didn't want 400 watt lights, lol.

Out of curiosity, do you disagree with the cost analysis I made in my comparison with a comparable MH fixture? None of the maintenance I've had has been costly, but as stated earlier, all brands are susceptible to warranty problems. Some even start houses on fire

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by tufacody
Nope, no way I've downplayed the issues with the I4. I've had many of them. My is being replaced with the I5. The problems I've had have been annoying, but never compromised the viability of the light.

You did in your cost analysis. The reality is that MANY people have had MANY problems with the light. Those problems will continue to occur as the units age and will not be covered under warranty. The reality is that these units are going to cost a lot ot maintain over the same period that they should be "paying for themselves compared to MH or T5". Those costs are not ever put in perspective.

So again. When we talk about the TCO of these fixtures, we need to use the reality of them to do the calculations. I am sure this will get better with each generation, but to date we only have the history and maintenance record of the product to go on.

I don't disagree that the Solaris will get better and better, which is more than I can say for MH.

Sure but we are not talking about the future. This thread and most of the threads are about the current shipping models. The same could be said about any number of products and technologies that have potential to evolve. The POINT was that I am not against LED fixtures and do feel they will get much better. The OP asked for opinions in the "now". The easy answer is the "future".

What faulty PAR testing are you referring too?

I am not refering to 'faulty' PAR testing. Nowhere did I use the word faulty or infer such a thing.

I inferred biased tests, numbers and statistics designed to provide a known outcome for advertising purposes. My post was fairly clear in meaning.

Frankly, I have only seen one and that was by an independent tester. People raised issues, but I don't think anything compromised the reported results.

Nobody said results were compromised. Where did you get that from what I posted? The independent test was very telling and did not support the the PFO claims or many of the PRO led arguments for THAT generation of fixture. It proved they had come a long way and also showed them to be viable, but not 'better' than the MH. This generation will certainly (at least we would hope) test better against the same setup.

You say that you have not seen the numbers so you cannot comment, but you have commented plenty.

With all due respect, you are having a lot of comprehension trouble with my comments. This is the 4th or 5th point you time you have misrepresented what I have said, or flat taken it out of context.

I have not commented on the PAR output or efficiency of the new fixture other than to say it should be better than the previous models. I have not commented on the durability of the unit other than to say it SHOULD be better than the previous models.

I'm also not sure where/when Solaris has compared the I series to a 400 watt MH. Can you refer me to that?

Try their webpage, and every advertising blurb regarding the fixture. They are calling it = to a 400W 15K.

My understanding was that they best compared to 250 watts, which is what I would concur with. Please refer me to that. Frankly, that would surprise me too. I didn't want 400 watt lights, lol.

The 250W claim was for the older units and where the 'biased testing' comments are targeted. The independent test was very telling with regard to the claim vs reality.

Out of curiosity, do you disagree with the cost analysis I made in my comparison with a comparable MH fixture? None of the maintenance I've had has been costly, but as stated earlier, all brands are susceptible to warranty problems. Some even start houses on fire

Yes, I disagree on several levels. Your bulb maintenance schedule was fine. The problem is that you did not account for the costs to keep the SOLARIS running for the duration of the "pay off" period. The HEAT issue is also not as cut and dry as that. The SOLARIS does heat the room as much as the same wattage of MH. It likely radiates less heat directly to the water, but it does heat the room. Less wattage = less light. So you must take that into consideration when comparing it to other fixtures. We should be talking about the same basic amount of light and what it takes to create it.

Anyway.. this has been fun, but I am off to the monthly club meeting.

[tufacody]

Ok, checked the website. I do see that the new I5 (I currently have I4, being upgraded for free) is being compared to the 400 watt. So far I have only heard of one person with the new I5, so I can't imagine that enough testing has been done to completely satisy those who want to pick it apart with. Guess PAR hasn't concerned me much given the health of the corals I want to keep. If there is new testing out there (hopefully from more than one source) that proves that the advertising is false, we should be talking about the nuts and bolts of that. I guess I considered "biased" and "faulty" to be synonomous for our purposes. But heck, I'm not going to argue semantics.

As for the maintenance issue, I think you are blowing that way out of proportion. You say you have not commented on the issue of durability, and yet you are claiming my cost analysis is wrong because I didn't factor that in. Really BA, I'm reading your posts just fine. Of course neither of us know for sure, only time will tell. But it is not the nature of the LED to "go bad" or burn out. It's a matter of driving them correctly. A LED that isn't being driven correctly will burn out relatively quickly or it will last the 10 years that most do. In my 20 years in this hobby I've had several MH and flourescent ballasts that didn't last more than 24 months, and I didn't figure that at all.

I have to say, the heated room argument still has me baffled. Mine blows a little hot air, but certainly not enough to warm the room, and far less than any other 72" fixture I have come across. The air between my MH fixture and the water's surface is heated far more than the Solaris adds, never mind whats happening in the fixture itself. Really, that one is a stretch. But the whole point behind that anyway is that fact that with MH many need a chiller. With Solaris my tank runs almost 10 degrees cooler. I don't care how you figure air temp into it. The point is I don't need a chiller, and to suggest that I might need to run my central air more because of my Solaris fixture is really silly.

[tufacody]

The point is I don't need a chiller, and to suggest that I might need to run my central air more because of my Solaris fixture is really silly.

---assuming that is what you are implying, lol. I'd hate to misinterpret you a 6th time, lol

[layer3switchguy]

Originally posted by pjf
I'm afraid I'm not connected to BOINC but I did work at Xerox PARC & ARPAnet when I was attending college and have continued with networking, including co-penning a couple of nerdy books (ISBN 9781931836647, 9781928994848). I do like high-tech, including the latest lighting technology, regardless of whether they are a good value.

I see that you fly. The Air Force Academy is nearby and I've considered joining the flying club there. That may be my next money pit after my aquarium and my 1989 Japanese 4wd.

LOL, be careful, flying is just about one of the most expensive hobbies you can find! It will make reefkeeping look cheaper than collecting bottle caps!

As to the AF Academy... Know it well. I'm a ring knocker. Class of 1989. I spent 11 years flying in the Air Force before getting into high tech. Congrats on the books. Thats an impressive accomplishment, even if it is CSCO gear! (I'm an ex Juniper guy, joined right after I left the Air Force)

[pjf]

I'm proposing Juniper NAC devices for my work. I'm not a zoomer but my next-door neighbor is a graduate of the AFA. My brother on the West Coast has a Cessna. My wife is afraid that I'm getting the itch. It will be a while. I'm wearing CRT contacts at night to correct my vision.

My lighting is run by X10 devices but I've been replacing them with INSTEON devices. I'll post a review in a month. Fixtures, like Solaris, Aquaillumination and Galaxy, may make them obsolete. Do check out the Sfiligoi Galaxy since it has modular lights. Sfiligoi markets microprocessor lighting in both LED and MH formats so it appears to be technology-agnostic. I'll let my wife decide between my lighting or my flying.

[Fukalite]

Since this thread is already gone I thought I'd ask the OP...Have you considered the AquaIllumination LED Light Systems. I have never owned one but, have never heard any negative firsthand comments regarding these LED systems and could not find and posts or threads here or on any other forum indicating negative experiences?

[dandydan]

You have made a good but very expensive purchase,
I am and have been using LED for some time, I build my own strips. those Rebels that Solaris use are pretty good. Plus we are not years away from even more powerfull LED, already you can purchase a single 1200Lumen LED, in fact in a year or so LED will be out of date and will be superceded by I think EMS.
The thought of 50,000 hrs life, no more bulb changes, shimmer, light weight/thin cable/carbon foot print etc etc. does it all for me.

Its like anything else electronic, go for it now or forever wait and wait. it is here now if you want it and will only improve.
Luck

[bergzy]

Originally posted by dandydan
The thought of 50,000 hrs life

i asked sanjay yesterday but i dont expect an answer as quickly as if i asked someone who might know how long the phosphors of the led's last.

do they produce the effective spectrum required for coral survivability and growth over the entire 50k hour life? or does their spectrum degrade over time like every other bulb?

i know someone who designs and builds led devices for medical use (neonatal, dermatology etc) but i wont see him for another few months, otherwise i could ask him about it.

[pjf]

Originally posted by Fukalite
Have you considered the AquaIllumination LED Light Systems.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/10/review/view

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by tufacody
Guess PAR hasn't concerned me much given the health of the corals I want to keep.

Perfectly valid perspective. The problem comes when we try to compare the different aspects of this technology or specific fixture with other technology or fixtures that will provide the same amount of health for the corals.

As for the maintenance issue, I think you are blowing that way out of proportion. You say you have not commented on the issue of durability, and yet you are claiming my cost analysis is wrong because I didn't factor that in. Really BA, I'm reading your posts just fine.

I am commenting on the previous fixtures and their track record with regard to what can be expected. The new fixture could break the pattern though.

But it is not the nature of the LED to "go bad" or burn out. It's a matter of driving them correctly.

By many accounts there are certainly driver problems... FWIW I am very aware of how and why LEDs work and the circuit topologies needed to drive them in different configurations

I have to say, the heated room argument still has me baffled. Mine blows a little hot air, but certainly not enough to warm the room, and far less than any other 72" fixture I have come across.

A Watt is a Watt. In our case if we use a Watt of power in a room, most (almost all) of that power will end up as heat in the room. The only energy that does not end up as heat is the very small portion of light/radiation that escapes through a window... the magnetic flux that finds its way out of the room... etc. So a 100W fan and a 100W LED both put the same amount of energy into the room and therefore both impart the same basic amount of heat into the room. Physics 101

A majority of the energy in an LED is turned to heat. Most of it conducted away from the LED die by the large heatsink and then convected into the room. The MH and T5 produce less conductive heat and more UV and IR radiation than the LED.

The point is I don't need a chiller, and to suggest that I might need to run my central air more because of my Solaris fixture is really silly.

You need to run you central air more for every watt of energy you put into the house. Be it MH, LED, HUMAN, whatever

[tufacody]

Bean, you aren't seeing the forest from the tress. Putting a "watt" into a beaker and putting a "watt" into the ocean yield very different net results temperature wise. By your analysis you seem to be claiming that they are the same. The heat the Solaris blows would only significantly affect the temperature of a VERY small room.

And besides that, ALL fixtures radiate this same type of heat, most more so than even the Solaris. The Solaris has a heat sensor on it's board, and the display does give the readout. On my normal settings the board is around 85 degrees. The temperature of the OUTSIDE casing on my Outer Orbit 250 watt fixture is higher than that. Imagine what it is blowing out.