A Few Thoughts on P.Eichler's List

[hankthetank]

I want to say that the purpose of this post is not to ruffle any feathers,but of course it will,so.....While I appreciate the thought and effort that goes into a project of this nature,I must say that at its most fundamental level it is counterproductive to our hobby.
I contend that if the time and effort spent compiling a list of all the things we shouldn't keep were spent studying how to keep just one of these creatures properly that the long term interests of the marine hobby would be better served.Lists like this create the inevitable outcry for banning the keeping of the animals in question.If we don't try to keep them we will never learn how to!
As an example take the freshwater Angelfish,Pteropyllum Scalare.When these fish were first brought into the hobby they were considered extremely difficult to keep and impossible to breed.As anyone who has kept freshwater fish in the last 30 years or so can tell you this is far from the case.Due to increases in knowledge,technology and the adaptation of these fish to captive conditions they are now dirt easy to keep and breed.Discus are heading in the same direction.At its heart the idea that since they are difficult to keep they shouldn't be kept smacks of the Flat Earth Theory.It can only lead to a situation where we will NEVER learn to keep them.Now I 'm not saying someone should start keeping Whale Sharks to learn their requirements,but many of the species on the list to be avoided have the potential to be great aquarium fish under the right conditions.As an example take the genus Platax.A little insight into their natural history sheds light on what they need to survive in captivity.as juveniles they are not found in the ocean but in mangrove swamps.Their unique shapes and colors mimic floating mangrove leaves.And guess what they eat alot of?Mangrove fruits.Try feeding juvies small pieces of ripe banana and grapes and see how they eat!Adults are easy to keep,but extremely large and need suitable housing.I could go on but this is getting too long!We need to think long term about our hobby and not give in to knee-jerk raections to our present lack of understanding.Many things are currently unknown,but nothing is unknowable.Unless we stop trying to learn.

P.S. Any members from the U.K. can tell you that Betta splendens is illegal there because of the outcry from animal right nuts over the fact that people sometimes keep them in small jars.This stuff can and does happen!

[wayne in norway]

B splendens is not illegal in the UK. Can you show me where they ARE stated to be illegal?

[hankthetank]

A friend works for Aquarium Pharmaceutical and travels to Europe extensively.The cannot be sold in LFS'.It is similar to the laws about small turtles in the U.S. I guess.It is illegal to SELL them,but not illegal to HAVE them.

[hankthetank]

OK apparently he was mistaken as am I about bettas,but the point stands

[dc]

Why have you not posted this on his thread?

IMO it's a list that might make people think twice about some of the fish. So I don't think it's counterproductive at all.

Don't worry there'll always be people that know they can have these fish no matter what is posted about them.

[Mr31415]

I differ from you.

I believe *most* hobbyists are just not in to all the nitty gritty efforts of experimenting with difficult to care for species... Most aquarists would say: Wow nice fish, lets buy it. Put it in their tank believing they will somehow have some luck that other specialist aquarists do not possess... But alas! After a couple weeks/months the fish dies.

I think the rationale is that most aquarists (i.e. the average hobbyist) should stay away from difficult to keep animals as the chances they will die are very high.

It does NOT mean skilled/dedicated people should not perform research. But it asks for a different kind of person than the average hobbyist. It requires someone willing to dedicate a considerable amount of time, effort and money in experimentation. Requiring dedicated setups to eliminate cross contamination etc.

Because of this I firmly believe anyone not willing to spend that much effort should stay away from them UNTIL the dedicated guys find a verifiable solution.

My R2 (worth as much as USD 0.02 )

[hankthetank]

Peter strikes me as an intelligent capable aquarist.He has spent 10 yrs off and on compiling his list.What if this intelligent capable aquarist spent 10 yrs developing a food source that could keep obligate coral feeders healthy?Wouldn't we as hobbyistists all be better off?And wouldn't all the obligate coral feeders that will be brought into the trade be better off as well?It is just a question of using our intellectual resources in a manner which will provide the maximum benefit to ourselves and the creatures we keep.I do not mean to offend anyone,but if I do,I do so in the quest to expand our knowledge.

[plandy]

Hankthetank, I could not disagree with you more than words can describe. Most of my reasons were already well explained by Mr31415.

Most importantly were are concerned about the welfare of the endangered coral reefs. In another words Peter's list concerns conservation of the hobbyist resources as well as the conservation of wildlife. You really need to take a closer look at the big picture: The amount of wildlife which is lost enroute to our tank. Then the amount of wildlife which dies within days and weeks at final destination. I truly believe if you can see the "big picture" you'd change your mind quickly.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by hankthetank
A friend works for Aquarium Pharmaceutical and travels to Europe extensively.The cannot be sold in LFS'.It is similar to the laws about small turtles in the U.S. I guess.It is illegal to SELL them,but not illegal to HAVE them.

In Oklahoma, it is only illegal to sell turtles less than 4" long to anyone that does not possess an educators liscense (basically teachers can buy them). Of course, it's illegal to sell CITES protected turtles, too. But, purchasing turtles larger than 4" isn't a problem at all.

[King-Kong]

I think the point of the list is as a primer for people getting into this hobby.

In fact, I think it should be required reading and handed out at all fish stores.

If more people, new to this hobby, appreciated the difficulty in taking care of certain species, then we wouldnt see newbies with 10g tanks throwing in mandarins, and then wondering why they died.

[dc]

Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
In Oklahoma, it is only illegal to sell turtles less than 4" long to anyone that does not possess an educators liscense (basically teachers can buy them). Of course, it's illegal to sell CITES protected turtles, too. But, purchasing turtles larger than 4" isn't a problem at all.

In Utah, about all you have to do is say that you are using them for teaching.

[barbra]

I think Hank's argument is intelligent and well put and he makes a valid point. I got into salt water in 1986 and what I have now, what nearly all of us have now, was unthinkable for the home aquarist at the time. Many of the people we ask advice of are capable of giving us the answers because they learned by experience.

If the prices charged for fish and corals was reflective of the care they required it might help. King Kong brings up Mandarins; that's a good example of a very inexpensive life form that catches the eye of a hobbyist for it's coloration and goes home because it's so reasonably priced. The LFS will rarely avoid the sale by emphasizing the feeding requirements of said critter. Plenty of people will think it is expendable simply because of the $15 price tag. The Moorish Idol is another example. I can easily foresee a day when we can commonly keep the Idol, but it won't happen unless we try.

I am not at all happy about my role in such matters, I mourn the loss of the smallest and most insignificant life forms (except roaches) but it is unlikely that we are going to experience success without also experiencing failure.

[Sk8r]

Just thinking here, but maybe it wouldn't be a bad notion to license certain pet dealers: Petco should stick to freshwater and birds, period, unless it changes out its tiny tanks for big tanks and stops overstocking them: 20 yellow tangs in a 20g---no wonder people get skewed ideas about what they can keep in a tank. This other guy, Sam, here, can be a licensed reef shop: he's got the big tanks and runs them properly, he'll sell equipment that will keep hobbyists in business, and without Petco to compete with, he can make a decent profit.

[plandy]

Originally posted by barbra
I can easily foresee a day when we can commonly keep the Idol, but it won't happen unless we try.

If you've read Paul B's exhaustive research into keeping Idols you'd change your mind about this creature commonly kept with ease. The fact of the matter keeping Reefs and Marine Fishes to their full natural potential is anything but easy. Have you bred & raised any marine fishes lately?

[barbra]

Originally posted by plandy
If you've read Paul B's exhaustive research into keeping Idols you'd change your mind about this creature commonly kept with ease. The fact of the matter keeping Reefs and Marine Fishes to their full natural potential is anything but easy. Have you bred & raised any marine fishes lately?

I have read it.
Did you read my post? I don't think I even made the remotest implication that we can keep them with ease at this point in time. I was speaking of the future and comparing it to how far we have come so far.

[ralphie16]

Originally posted by barbra
I mourn the loss of the smallest and most insignificant life forms (except roaches) but it is unlikely that we are going to experience success without also experiencing failure.

you dont mourn roaches but yet they are the one species that HAS experienced success without failure.

They one of the oldest life forms still alive and well after millions and millions of years of extreme climate and environment changes. i think they have outlived almost anything else in this world and for that they should be celebrated.

i feed the roaches in my friend's apt and they reward me with unprecedented entertainment. i bow in their glory.

[barbra]

Originally posted by ralphie16
you dont mourn roaches but yet they are the one species that HAS experienced success without failure.

They one of the oldest life forms still alive and well after millions and millions of years of extreme climate and environment changes. i think they have outlived almost anything else in this world and for that they should be celebrated.

i feed the roaches in my friend's apt and they reward me with unprecedented entertainment. i bow in their glory.

LOL- I certainly appreciate the adaptability of the roach. I do not claim that my response to the sight of them is rational at all...I become crazed with fear and typically there isn't anything left but a greasy spot on the ground when I am done with one. I have left them merely smashed and dismembered before and saw them get up, collect their severed limbs, and limp home to regroup.

[bureau13]

Ha ha...key point emphasized below in red:

Originally posted by ralphie16
i feed the roaches in my friend's apt and they reward me with unprecedented entertainment. i bow in their glory.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hankthetank
I want to say that the purpose of this post is not to ruffle any feathers,but of course it will,so.....While I appreciate the thought and effort that goes into a project of this nature,I must say that at its most fundamental level it is counterproductive to our hobby.
I contend that if the time and effort spent compiling a list of all the things we shouldn't keep were spent studying how to keep just one of these creatures properly that the long term interests of the marine hobby would be better served.Lists like this create the inevitable outcry for banning the keeping of the animals in question.If we don't try to keep them we will never learn how to!

You want to know what will get a ban on collection faster than you can say "I'll take the Moorish Idol please"? Continueing to waste and needlesssly kill thousands and thousands of fish every year that have little to no chance of survival in our aquariums. We need to police ourselves and stop being so wasteful or else someone else will do it for us, and that later scenario is something I'm hoping to help avoid, NOT encourage.

As an example take the freshwater Angelfish,Pteropyllum Scalare.When these fish were first brought into the hobby they were considered extremely difficult to keep and impossible to breed.As anyone who has kept freshwater fish in the last 30 years or so can tell you this is far from the case.

They were somewhat difficult, but many of the fish on the list are on a whole other level of difficult. Angelsfish were being bred as long ago as the 1920's and by the 1950's many strains had been developed from captive breeding. So I'm not sure where you're getting this impossible to breed thing from. Even if Angelfish were as difficult as you say, 30 years ago most of the specimens avilable were captive bred so those animals that were dying in aquariums were not wasting a natural resource.

Due to increases in knowledge,technology and the adaptation of these fish to captive conditions they are now dirt easy to keep and breed.Discus are heading in the same direction.At its heart the idea that since they are difficult to keep they shouldn't be kept smacks of the Flat Earth Theory.It can only lead to a situation where we will NEVER learn to keep them.

The advances in our hobby over the last 10-15 years have been very little. Sure there are more choice in equipment but all of the "new" ideas people are coming up with now are just a slightly new twist on old ideas. There will still be advancements made but we've reached the point where they will be very small advancements. The big breakthroughs in this hobby have already been made. We're still using the same basic forumulas we used many years ago, and it works quite well. We're not even to the point where we can sustain demand for clownfish with captive breeding alone. There are hundreds and hundreds of very hardy animals that we keep in out aquariums that have never been captive bred. Yet you think we should keep collecting animals we can't figure out how to keep alive l? How about we learn how to regularly breed Flame Angelfish, Hepatus Tangs, and Firefish Gobies. After we do that we can worry about figuring out how to keep and breed the fish we don't know how to keep alive...

Making the analogy between "the flat earth theory" and us giving up on incredibly difficult to keep species that we like to look at in our glass boxes is just about the most fellacious analogy I've ever heard. In the grand scheme of things how would us never knowing how to sustain a Moorish Idol be help this hobby in any way besides us having 1001 fish we can keep alive longterm instead of 1000. In the grand scheme of the hobby there is no real benefit to us ever figuring out how to keep Moorish Idols or any of the other fish that are notoriously difficult. However, there are plenty of negatives if they continue to be collected because hobbysist keep buying even though they will most certainly die an early death. Here's an analogy for you, us continuing to try to keep Moorish Idols is about as productive as beating your head up against a wall repeatedly.

Now I 'm not saying someone should start keeping Whale Sharks to learn their requirements,but many of the species on the list to be avoided have the potential to be great aquarium fish under the right conditions.As an example take the genus Platax.A little insight into their natural history sheds light on what they need to survive in captivity.as juveniles they are not found in the ocean but in mangrove swamps.Their unique shapes and colors mimic floating mangrove leaves.And guess what they eat alot of?Mangrove fruits.Try feeding juvies small pieces of ripe banana and grapes and see how they eat!Adults are easy to keep,but extremely large and need suitable housing.I could go on but this is getting too long!We need to think long term about our hobby and not give in to knee-jerk raections to our present lack of understanding.Many things are currently unknown,but nothing is unknowable.Unless we stop trying to learn.

The banana thing with batfish has been around for as long as I've been in this hobby. It doesn't work! The biggest problem is getting them to eat, not the fact that they're not eating bananas and grapes... They are also notoriously bad shippers. Also, how about the fish that are regularly collected using cyanide and other drugs, how would you suggest we learn to keep them?

If you want to think longterm about our hobby think about how you can make is less wasteful and LEARN how we can breed the hundreds of fish we already know to be hardy. How about we spread awareness about the animals available in the hobby that have special needs so people can better LEARN how to keep them alive.

The less we frivolously waste the less the chance of regulations on collection of the animals we love. Keep trying to figure out the ones we don't know how to keep and eventually some environmental group is going to catch on to just how dismal the survival rate is on some/all of these fish we keep. I'll tell you what, they're not just going to ban the collection of the difficult fish on my list. It's not like we need to keep fish, it's not like we do any good, we do it because we enjoy it. The only reason would need to know how to keep all animals is to quench our egos as the most dominant, most intelligent species on the planet. If we were really as smart as we think we are we'd know better how to admit defeat in many aspects of life, not just that really fragile fish we want in our pretty glass box.

As a funny aside... Many of these species on that last have about as good of a chance for survival as keeping a Whaleshark in your swimming pool. Heck, put natural seawater in the pool and the whaleshark might survive longer than a lot of fish on that list. So why aren't you suggesting we keep the Whaleshark? We need to learn!

P.S. Any members from the U.K. can tell you that Betta splendens is illegal there because of the outcry from animal right nuts over the fact that people sometimes keep them in small jars.This stuff can and does happen!

I'm not quite sure how this relates to my list... Perhaps if I were starting a campaign to prevent people from keeping tank bred clownfish in fishbowls it would have more relevance. I'd also like to see a reference, because as far as I'm aware Betta splendens are perfectly legal in the UK. Though I'll admit, it's not a topic I follow religiously...

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hankthetank
Peter strikes me as an intelligent capable aquarist.He has spent 10 yrs off and on compiling his list.What if this intelligent capable aquarist spent 10 yrs developing a food source that could keep obligate coral feeders healthy?Wouldn't we as hobbyistists all be better off?And wouldn't all the obligate coral feeders that will be brought into the trade be better off as well?It is just a question of using our intellectual resources in a manner which will provide the maximum benefit to ourselves and the creatures we keep.I do not mean to offend anyone,but if I do,I do so in the quest to expand our knowledge.

Actually when I was in my teens I worked on a fishfood formula to help prevent and cure HLLE caused by dietary deficiencies. Though my main goal was to provide a food for finicky eaters and fish that routinely starve to death in home aquaria. I also was one of the first (if not the first) people to incorporate highly nutritional dried seaweeds into fish foods to promote healthy growth in herbivores. I reasearched this food for years and it was sold througout the midwest. I'll tell you what, I didn't get rich and my reason for doing it was not money, it was the welfare of the animals we keep. I was offerered buyout prices for the formulas by a couple well known companies still in the industry. I could have cashed in and went along my merry way as a hobbyist. Instead I settled for hard work and small profits for years. I ended up giving up on the business when my business partner (my mother) was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

I must admit, I'm a little offended at some of your posts. But, not so much that I don't think we can have a healthy debate and I certainly wish you no ill will.

So, what have you done for the hobby?

[mildew]

Just have to add my 2cents, even tho it is somewhat off the subject, yet was brought up by hankthetank (I think). The ban on selling turtles less than 4 inches in diameter to other than educators in OK, and many other states is not the result of animal rights nuts actions, or in consideration of the turtles well being, etc. It is my understanding that the regulation is based soley on the belief that a child can not get a 4" or larger turtle in his/her mouth. Now that's hard to believe, but apparently this was a common enough practice that doctors or the government or public health officials or whoever thought could be involved in children contracting Salmonella. I heard the government is considering recinding that regulation, but the regulation will still exist on the books in many states that set their own laws. As for the fish list, I think it's great. As a hobbyist (not a rich man) I don't need to spend my money on fish that I am not equipped to keep or can't be easily kept. I sure do love my Pajama cardinals. I don't want to spend my money on hard/impossible to keep corals either.

[hankthetank]

Angelfish were first imported into the U.S. at the beginning of the 20 th century.

What does cyanide have to do with it?People were using it to catch food fish long before they were used to collect fish for the hobby.Get your fish from responsible collection points like The Red Sea,Hawaii,Vanuatu,etc.

The only reason batfish are difficult to feed is because they are not built to compete with fish that evolved to survive a reef.The last shipment of fish I brought in contained a Pinnatus,an Orbic,and 2 Teiras.All ate well because they were ordered from a responsible shipper and were set up right in the store.

Since there have been no new advances in the last 10 to 15 years we know all we will ever know and should stop trying to lrearn more?

Reductio ad absurdum is a quaint means of debate.

As to what I have done for this hobby I have been employed at LFS' on at least a part-time basis almost continuosly since 1981.I have started more people in this hobby out on the right foot than I can count.Ask any serious hobbyist in the Phila.PA area about the guy with the ponytail. I have told people the straight story about what the consequences of their actions will probably be.And I have watched more animals than even you could count go to almost certain deaths.But over the years I have seen steady progress in increasing the number of species we are able to keep successfully.I,unlike you apparently,expect this to continue.Look outside the box of our hobby and see how human knowledge grows.Who are you or who is anyone to tell a person they can't have a Moorish Idol?While you stop short of actually saying it,I am confident you would support a law which would penalize people for attempting to have them.I guess I value human happiness more highly than you.

I admitted I had received information that was untrue and posted it without independent verification.Mea culpa.

Unlike alot of people who post on this forum I am only interested in exchanging ideas.I like to keep my personal life just that, personal,at least in forums designated for that purpose.I must admit a certain discomfort reading about the trials and tribulations that we all go through.

My level of discomfort rises when someone presents an attitude which is so clearly anti-human.

With that said I also bear you no ill will.I look forward to future debates,but not on this thread.

P.S.Sk8r your views on acceptable economics are extremely distressing.All companies could make more money without competition?When and where has that ever worked?Please be specific!

[Grins]

I'm a SW newbie but I appreciate lists like Peter's. A responsible newbie will seek out lists like this as a guide. As we gather more information we'll make more decisions on where we make changes to how a majority may do things.

If we're the sort that will take a list of fish not for the newbie and use it as a guide when we're more experienced perhaps we're not meant to make the advances in fishkeeping and it should be left to others who are willing to educate themselves, think critically, and deal with the risks.

[Icefire]

Sorry but thread like that make me

hankthetank has a point as I think some fish on that list should be removed. in ex. Cardinal fish.

but a guide for newbie is good but who gonna trust that list? the same kind of people that let a LFS owner sell them a tank in a 29g.

You can't expect most LFS giving that list, let be realist.

the 1000/1001 analogy is funny, where do you draw a lines? why not stop collecting and just keep tank breed clownfish? Fish die in the ocean anyway.

my 2am .02

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hankthetank
Angelfish were first imported into the U.S. at the beginning of the 20 th century.

What does cyanide have to do with it?People were using it to catch food fish long before they were used to collect fish for the hobby.Get your fish from responsible collection points like The Red Sea,Hawaii,Vanuatu,etc.

The only reason batfish are difficult to feed is because they are not built to compete with fish that evolved to survive a reef.The last shipment of fish I brought in contained a Pinnatus,an Orbic,and 2 Teiras.All ate well because they were ordered from a responsible shipper and were set up right in the store.

Since there have been no new advances in the last 10 to 15 years we know all we will ever know and should stop trying to lrearn more?

Reductio ad absurdum is a quaint means of debate.

As to what I have done for this hobby I have been employed at LFS' on at least a part-time basis almost continuosly since 1981.I have started more people in this hobby out on the right foot than I can count.Ask any serious hobbyist in the Phila.PA area about the guy with the ponytail. I have told people the straight story about what the consequences of their actions will probably be.And I have watched more animals than even you could count go to almost certain deaths.But over the years I have seen steady progress in increasing the number of species we are able to keep successfully.I,unlike you apparently,expect this to continue.Look outside the box of our hobby and see how human knowledge grows.Who are you or who is anyone to tell a person they can't have a Moorish Idol?While you stop short of actually saying it,I am confident you would support a law which would penalize people for attempting to have them.I guess I value human happiness more highly than you.

I admitted I had received information that was untrue and posted it without independent verification.Mea culpa.

Unlike alot of people who post on this forum I am only interested in exchanging ideas.I like to keep my personal life just that, personal,at least in forums designated for that purpose.I must admit a certain discomfort reading about the trials and tribulations that we all go through.

My level of discomfort rises when someone presents an attitude which is so clearly anti-human.

With that said I also bear you no ill will.I look forward to future debates,but not on this thread.

P.S.Sk8r your views on acceptable economics are extremely distressing.All companies could make more money without competition?When and where has that ever worked?Please be specific!

What's sad is you see my views as anti-human rather than pro-fish... I don't appreciate you twisting around the things I say, nor you making assumptions on my feelings regarding collection laws. I aboslutely don't want to see laws, I want to see collectors and hobbyists be responsible with the available resources. I want people to be aware that the chances of a Moorish Idol surviving longterm in an aquarium are very slim, if someone is aware of that and they still want a Moorish Idol I'm not going to stop them. However, to imply that human happiness would be negatively effected if an aquarist couldn't purchase a Moorish Idol IS absurd. I could disect all of your arguments, point out the various fallacies of logic you made, and we would get nowhere so I'll stop here.

For the observers in this thread, read the two arguments and pick sides if you wish. However, let me make a few things clear. The list was made to increase awareness of difficult species in order to save some fish/inverts and hopefully in turn increase the enjoyment of hobbyists by helping them avoid trouble species. I don't think anyone here will disagree with me when I say having fish and corals die is not fun. It's also very frustrating when a LFS sells you something they claim to be hardy only to find out later that it's anything but. So, why not stick to the many hundreds of species we know we have a greater chance of maintaining in our systems longterm? In turn, why not have a list of those possible problem species to increase awareness and help people pick hardier critters for their reef tanks?

There is no hidden agenda and I'm not trying to thrust my beliefs on anyone. The list is what it is!