Long term biodiversity experiment.

DivaMan · 02/06/2008, 12:18 AM

Well, as the situation happens, I have an independent study with one of the biology teachers at my school. Well the only one that actually understands anything I ask, when I have a question on, certain biological chemistries etc. Anyway, an independent study is basically a class that you make yourself, to fit a curriculum or objective that you define. It has to be run by a teacher, but can be instructed by either the student themselves or through an outside mentor. This will be for the next School year, 08', 09'. However, I am currently outlining my objectives.

Basic Proposition:
A long term "live" experiment that measures the effects of biodiversity in flora/fauna and micro-organisms related to the health of a particular animal.

Yes this seems fairly obvious what the result would be, however, I hypothesized that with TOO much biodiversity competition between microorganisms as well as macro organisms would thin the populations, either leading to a crash or returning the population and diversity levels to that of the control system.

What I need help with:

A specific/easy to measure species. ( I thought mantises would be nice, because molts can be measured, as well as general activity of the animal)

How to set up two variabled, one control setup. Well, I only really need help with the VERY LOW DIVERSITY setup and the VERY HIGH DIVERSITY, that will allow me to actually conduct an experiment, because I'm not sure how to set this up properly without nullifying my results.
- On a note with this, I'm also trying to figure out a cheap (relatively) setup to setup three SEPARATE systems each able to house 1 animal, and support a refugium. I was thinking DIY over the summer, but that is too risky. Im trying to budget this within the range of getting a grant from my school. (yes this is technically a school related thing, so anything that is donated can be tax deducted) I was thinking of going to one of the major online retailers like the vets or marine depot, about nanocube 12 gallons, because of their ease of use, setup, and tight dimensions (and an ability to add a lock to it, these are going to be in a High school). (My mantis tank a NC 12, gave me the Idea for this, because it Runs NO carbon, no chemicals or anything, and every level is consistently good.)

Luckily on a side note I will have access to all the tools of the science department including formaldehyde, really nice microscopes, dissecting tools, scales, drills, scientific grade salinity and SG measurement tools (refractometers, etc.) As well as access to species databases, so I can record species names.

aninjaatemyshoe · 02/06/2008, 02:13 PM

I think you may be way too ambitious about what you are trying to accomplish. First of all, measuring biodiversity is something that I would say is incredibly difficult. You could go about trying to capture, identify and count the species in your tank. But, if you are talking about including micro-fauna, then you're talking about an incredibly tedious nearly impossible task. Plus, the number of species in a closed system is going to decrease with time.

In terms of looking at the health of an animal (such as a mantis shrimp), you can't really control the experimental setup enough to measure it in regards to something as general as "biodiversity." For one thing, all mantis shrimp are wild caught. So even if you could procure a large number of the same species, you will be getting them in various states of health. The sample size that you would need to compensate for this would be ridiculous. Simply having two setups, one with "very low diversity" and one with "very high diversity," is not going to yield meaningful results. If the one in the high diversity setup dies and the one in the low diversity lives, does that mean that mantis shrimp are better off in low diversity setups? Not necessarily; there are many other possible causes for its decline in health.

I think the best thing that would serve you would be to come up with a much much simpler experiment. Trust me, the simpler the better considering the very limited amount of time and money you have. If the experiment is to be meaningful, you're going to need to find something that is realistically measurable. If your interest is in mantis shrimp, perhaps you could do a study that compares the reaction of a certain species to different types of food offered (such as different live foods like shrimp, snails, hermit crabs along with different frozen foods). This may seem too simple, but when it is all said and done, it could certainly occupy all the time and money resources you'll have.

ryan_paskadi · 02/06/2008, 11:54 PM

Try White Feeder Shrimp as your experimental animal. Not that exciting but they are cheap, captive raised, and very hardy. You can keep them in a completly bare tank with only a bubbler. This makes it easiar to experimentn on (less variables)

tydtran · 02/07/2008, 09:46 AM

The keys to good experimental design is a carefully focused question. So your idea is interesting, but you have to define what you want to investigate with greater precision. Given the resources available to you, you have to focus on a particular organism and then define what aspect of biodiversity you want to examine with respect to that organism. Once you've done that, your experimental design will follow.

As a general point, what you are proposing to do is exceedingly hard to control. Your system has to be as simple as possible, otherwise you will have a hard time getting interpretable data from the system.

Would you consider a relatively simpler set of questions, like what variable may affect the growth of a particular type of coral or invertebrate?

flasher1 · 02/07/2008, 09:02 PM

I just did a lab report on microbial diversity in my bio 2 lab last semester. We did ours on microbes found in various fresh water sources. We used eco-plates which were basically a plastic plate with 96 wells (if I remember correctly) divided into 3 sets of 32 wells. One well was used as a control, and the other 31 were filled with various carbon substrates. If the well turned purple, then there was a microbe in that sample that metabolized the substrate.

Let me know if you need any help as I have some experience with this. As far as the ecoplate goes, it is only useful for microbes.

KafudaFish · 02/08/2008, 08:42 PM

How about looking at the meiofauna community in a heavy vs. lightly fed vs. no food system?
The cost would be low. Maybe $100 if you already have the right equipment.
The husbandry would be minimal. You would have to top off and feed as needed.
Diversity is based upon number of taxa and number of specimens.
You could take samples every 60 days and see what changes in the community.

02/06/2008, 12:18 AM	#1
DivaMan Moved On Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 252	Long term biodiversity experiment. Well, as the situation happens, I have an independent study with one of the biology teachers at my school. Well the only one that actually understands anything I ask, when I have a question on, certain biological chemistries etc. Anyway, an independent study is basically a class that you make yourself, to fit a curriculum or objective that you define. It has to be run by a teacher, but can be instructed by either the student themselves or through an outside mentor. This will be for the next School year, 08', 09'. However, I am currently outlining my objectives. Basic Proposition: A long term "live" experiment that measures the effects of biodiversity in flora/fauna and micro-organisms related to the health of a particular animal. Yes this seems fairly obvious what the result would be, however, I hypothesized that with TOO much biodiversity competition between microorganisms as well as macro organisms would thin the populations, either leading to a crash or returning the population and diversity levels to that of the control system. What I need help with: A specific/easy to measure species. ( I thought mantises would be nice, because molts can be measured, as well as general activity of the animal) How to set up two variabled, one control setup. Well, I only really need help with the VERY LOW DIVERSITY setup and the VERY HIGH DIVERSITY, that will allow me to actually conduct an experiment, because I'm not sure how to set this up properly without nullifying my results. - On a note with this, I'm also trying to figure out a cheap (relatively) setup to setup three SEPARATE systems each able to house 1 animal, and support a refugium. I was thinking DIY over the summer, but that is too risky. Im trying to budget this within the range of getting a grant from my school. (yes this is technically a school related thing, so anything that is donated can be tax deducted) I was thinking of going to one of the major online retailers like the vets or marine depot, about nanocube 12 gallons, because of their ease of use, setup, and tight dimensions (and an ability to add a lock to it, these are going to be in a High school). (My mantis tank a NC 12, gave me the Idea for this, because it Runs NO carbon, no chemicals or anything, and every level is consistently good.) Luckily on a side note I will have access to all the tools of the science department including formaldehyde, really nice microscopes, dissecting tools, scales, drills, scientific grade salinity and SG measurement tools (refractometers, etc.) As well as access to species databases, so I can record species names.

02/06/2008, 02:13 PM	#2
aninjaatemyshoe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 2,333	I think you may be way too ambitious about what you are trying to accomplish. First of all, measuring biodiversity is something that I would say is incredibly difficult. You could go about trying to capture, identify and count the species in your tank. But, if you are talking about including micro-fauna, then you're talking about an incredibly tedious nearly impossible task. Plus, the number of species in a closed system is going to decrease with time. In terms of looking at the health of an animal (such as a mantis shrimp), you can't really control the experimental setup enough to measure it in regards to something as general as "biodiversity." For one thing, all mantis shrimp are wild caught. So even if you could procure a large number of the same species, you will be getting them in various states of health. The sample size that you would need to compensate for this would be ridiculous. Simply having two setups, one with "very low diversity" and one with "very high diversity," is not going to yield meaningful results. If the one in the high diversity setup dies and the one in the low diversity lives, does that mean that mantis shrimp are better off in low diversity setups? Not necessarily; there are many other possible causes for its decline in health. I think the best thing that would serve you would be to come up with a much much simpler experiment. Trust me, the simpler the better considering the very limited amount of time and money you have. If the experiment is to be meaningful, you're going to need to find something that is realistically measurable. If your interest is in mantis shrimp, perhaps you could do a study that compares the reaction of a certain species to different types of food offered (such as different live foods like shrimp, snails, hermit crabs along with different frozen foods). This may seem too simple, but when it is all said and done, it could certainly occupy all the time and money resources you'll have. __________________ You are not brought upon this world to "get it"

02/07/2008, 09:02 PM	#5
flasher1 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 651	I just did a lab report on microbial diversity in my bio 2 lab last semester. We did ours on microbes found in various fresh water sources. We used eco-plates which were basically a plastic plate with 96 wells (if I remember correctly) divided into 3 sets of 32 wells. One well was used as a control, and the other 31 were filled with various carbon substrates. If the well turned purple, then there was a microbe in that sample that metabolized the substrate. Let me know if you need any help as I have some experience with this. As far as the ecoplate goes, it is only useful for microbes. __________________ My girlfriend lit the kitchen on fire making a salad!!! Good...now you are just as confused as I am. Current Tank Info: Been out of the game for a while and a lot has changed. Doing my due diligence before I jump in the deep end

02/06/2008, 11:54 PM	#3
ryan_paskadi Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: las cruces, nm Posts: 870	Try White Feeder Shrimp as your experimental animal. Not that exciting but they are cheap, captive raised, and very hardy. You can keep them in a completly bare tank with only a bubbler. This makes it easiar to experimentn on (less variables)

02/07/2008, 09:46 AM	#4
tydtran Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 853	The keys to good experimental design is a carefully focused question. So your idea is interesting, but you have to define what you want to investigate with greater precision. Given the resources available to you, you have to focus on a particular organism and then define what aspect of biodiversity you want to examine with respect to that organism. Once you've done that, your experimental design will follow. As a general point, what you are proposing to do is exceedingly hard to control. Your system has to be as simple as possible, otherwise you will have a hard time getting interpretable data from the system. Would you consider a relatively simpler set of questions, like what variable may affect the growth of a particular type of coral or invertebrate?

02/08/2008, 08:42 PM	#6
KafudaFish Cyprinius carpio Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 4,496	How about looking at the meiofauna community in a heavy vs. lightly fed vs. no food system? The cost would be low. Maybe $100 if you already have the right equipment. The husbandry would be minimal. You would have to top off and feed as needed. Diversity is based upon number of taxa and number of specimens. You could take samples every 60 days and see what changes in the community.