PFO closed, say goodbye to LED lighting for reef tanks???

argi · 02/03/2009, 07:05 PM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1567308

hans1976 · 02/03/2009, 07:41 PM

What does that do to Aquaillumination?

MasterDrazhar · 02/03/2009, 07:50 PM

If the article is true it would mean that they too would have to stop producing and selling any LED lighting systems.

All the aquarium lighting companies need to band together to fight the patent if they choose, or negotiate licensing terms that everyone can live with.

Till then, they would have to work it or word it that the LED lighting is for display purposes and not growth. A tactic that would be easier for the companies selling the T5 - actinic - LED type combo systems, to say the LEDs are for "show" or "display enhacement"... -or- get out of the LED lighting biz...

.

cato · 02/03/2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hans1976
What does that do to Aquaillumination?

Makes it Aqua-elimination.

Suky deal for those guys.

fitch4 · 02/03/2009, 08:09 PM

That is a bummer. Typical though, we start going a way that will save electricity and someone steps on it... Does that make my fixtures worth more or less? They could be like collector's items!!!

argi · 02/04/2009, 06:15 AM

Unfortunately Jon there is no one to stand behind the LED fixtures out there, that means no replacement bulbs, no warranty, etc...

As gcarroll mentioned in the other thread it doesn't cover "moonlights", so companies using LED moonlights on their fixtures are ok.

Very sad, another step backwards in our hobby

.

MasterDrazhar · 02/04/2009, 07:06 AM

I particularly hate it when a company that has absolutely no intention of even getting into a particular market pulls patents like this then locks up that market.

I know they are legally in the right, but it's still BS.

.

sploke · 02/04/2009, 07:38 AM

I wouldn't say they have no intention of getting into the market...

http://www.planet-llc.com/pages/sunbow/pages/apollo.htm

I have mixed feelings about this. Obviously anything that reduces the number of competitors for a given market segment is bad for the end user, as competition breeds better technology and lower prices. However, it does look like a case where PFO failed to do their due diligence...and apparently AI as well.

MasterDrazhar · 02/04/2009, 07:50 AM

Are they owned by Orbitec? In the OP article Orbitec said they had no interest in lighting fixtures when offered the sale of PFO...

(Again, assuming the original article is accurate)

adunne · 02/04/2009, 07:53 AM

Is Planet LLC owned or have affiliation with Orbital Technologies??

Obi-dad · 02/04/2009, 07:54 AM

This bites.

sploke · 02/04/2009, 10:34 AM

From Planet's homepage:

At PLANET, we strive to transition valuable technologies from their initial development stages to viable commercial markets through production and sales, equity or market partnerships, and technology or product licenses.

Launched in 1995 in Madison , Wisconsin under a strategic alliance with Orbital Technologies Corporation (ORBITEC), PLANET provides an outlet to commercial markets for ORBITECâ€™s advanced space technologies. In return, PLANETâ€™s products have had continuous access to ORBITEC's experienced research team to support future developments and improvements.

So, it looks like they are basically a storefront company for Orbitec's technologies.

MasterDrazhar · 02/04/2009, 11:30 AM

That blows!

hans1976 · 02/04/2009, 11:48 AM

I am not 100% sure people aren't leaping here. We know there is a lawsuit. We have heard that PFO laid the staff off (although PFO has not confirmed that). We don't know that if they did, it is because of the lawsuit or it may just be that business is very slow.

Chrysler, GM and Ford laid workers off for 5 weeks, does that meant that they closed up shop?

PFO is supposed to be at the conference. I called Joy last night to see if she indeed is going to come, but there was no answer. I will send them an email tonight - I don't want to sell their space if they are indeed going to be there.

Hopefully they don't go the route of "WavySea".

fitch4 · 02/04/2009, 12:11 PM

Joy does not work for PFO anymore... does that answer your question?

sploke · 02/04/2009, 02:35 PM

So...Orbitec's patent only specifically covers "marine growth"...seems that PFO could start selling fixtures to the FW planted tank market to supplement sales until this thing is straightened out.

Maritimegod112 · 02/04/2009, 02:35 PM

I wonder if this will affect the product I am using on my tank by Solar Oasis. It works!

Gobie74 · 02/04/2009, 04:00 PM

I hate patents.

Maritimegod112 · 02/04/2009, 04:13 PM

Also, I called Orbital Technologies and apparantly only PFO is targeted for now and they only did it because of "tough times". The lady on the phone said they were not wanting to do it, and they will most likely not attack other companies such as aquailluminations, but no one can predict what a large company like is can do with such a patent.

T5PO · 02/04/2009, 05:38 PM

Im not sure if its a world or American Patent only??? There are European Companies that make L.E.D. fixtures. If all else fails im sure of one Country in Asia that will have L.E.D. fixtures available labeled for a different use, and way cheaper. We will all have L.E.D.'s. I dont think its such a Big Blow to our hobby. The majority of Reefers cant afford the fixtures anyway. Dont get me wrong i do want L.E.D.'s, but for now the halides are working just fine.

camarojweed · 02/04/2009, 07:42 PM

This is an interesting issue...PFO dumped all of its other lighting to go LED and didn't have patents in place (and was over 2 years behind Orbital) Seems like some very poor business decisions...the other thread said PFO was offered an option to give 25% as a patent fee...I am sure they were less than polite at that offer..since it is a little outrageous, but PFOs fixtures are very expensive (50% off right now on marinedepot though) and have a poor track record for sustained operation...so there is a lot of speculation what will happen, but I am willing to bet we will not be hearing from PFO for a while, if at all...I am more willing to bet that they resurface as a new company after restructing...

Sad to see in the hobby, but as we have discussed, these are businesses and they must follow the laws...

cato · 02/05/2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hans1976

Hopefully they don't go the route of "WavySea".

Enlighten me about Wavy Sea. Are they done too?

hans1976 · 02/05/2009, 07:19 AM

From what I read...Wavy Sea out of business?

Not sure if Anne is just spreading rumors, but I don't see them at MD anymore.

argi · 02/05/2009, 09:53 AM

Wavy Sea has been gone for close to a year now I think (or at least 6 months).

Smitty750 · 02/05/2009, 09:28 PM

This is being blown way out of proportion, PFO will be fine they will change theyre design and LED drivers. Orbitec has involved with the production and research of horticultural lighting, and have slowly branched into aquarium lighting through theyre partner company, LED's are what they design and use and have been for years. Orbitec isnt the bad guy here

02/03/2009, 07:05 PM	#1
argi Everybody Talks Join Date: May 2002 Location: East Haddam, CT Posts: 3,210	PFO closed, say goodbye to LED lighting for reef tanks??? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1567308 __________________ "We're so busy watching out for what's just ahead of us that we don't take time to enjoy where we are." Calvin & Hobbes "Never become so much of an expert that you stop gaining expertise. View life as a continuous learning experience." Denis Waitley

02/03/2009, 07:41 PM	#2
hans1976 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 3,239	What does that do to Aquaillumination? __________________ Jeff PAST CTARS President Past MASNA Treasurer

02/03/2009, 08:09 PM	#5
fitch4 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CT Posts: 1,988	That is a bummer. Typical though, we start going a way that will save electricity and someone steps on it... Does that make my fixtures worth more or less? They could be like collector's items!!! __________________ 2020 New England Frag Farmer's Market March 7, 2020 E.O. Smith High School in Storrs CT Largest Single Day Coral Show in the U.S.! - 100+ Vendors! Current Tank Info: 100, 135 reefs and 150g and 800g frag tanks

02/04/2009, 06:15 AM	#6
argi Everybody Talks Join Date: May 2002 Location: East Haddam, CT Posts: 3,210	Unfortunately Jon there is no one to stand behind the LED fixtures out there, that means no replacement bulbs, no warranty, etc... As gcarroll mentioned in the other thread it doesn't cover "moonlights", so companies using LED moonlights on their fixtures are ok. Very sad, another step backwards in our hobby. __________________ "We're so busy watching out for what's just ahead of us that we don't take time to enjoy where we are." Calvin & Hobbes "Never become so much of an expert that you stop gaining expertise. View life as a continuous learning experience." Denis Waitley

02/04/2009, 07:38 AM	#8
sploke Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Eastern CT Posts: 665	I wouldn't say they have no intention of getting into the market... http://www.planet-llc.com/pages/sunbow/pages/apollo.htm I have mixed feelings about this. Obviously anything that reduces the number of competitors for a given market segment is bad for the end user, as competition breeds better technology and lower prices. However, it does look like a case where PFO failed to do their due diligence...and apparently AI as well. __________________ -Matt Current Tank Info: 265 reef w/ 200gal sump

02/03/2009, 07:50 PM	#3
MasterDrazhar Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Colchester, CT. Posts: 79	If the article is true it would mean that they too would have to stop producing and selling any LED lighting systems. All the aquarium lighting companies need to band together to fight the patent if they choose, or negotiate licensing terms that everyone can live with. Till then, they would have to work it or word it that the LED lighting is for display purposes and not growth. A tactic that would be easier for the companies selling the T5 - actinic - LED type combo systems, to say the LEDs are for "show" or "display enhacement"... -or- get out of the LED lighting biz... .

02/04/2009, 07:06 AM	#7
MasterDrazhar Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Colchester, CT. Posts: 79	I particularly hate it when a company that has absolutely no intention of even getting into a particular market pulls patents like this then locks up that market. I know they are legally in the right, but it's still BS. .

02/04/2009, 07:50 AM	#9
MasterDrazhar Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Colchester, CT. Posts: 79	Are they owned by Orbitec? In the OP article Orbitec said they had no interest in lighting fixtures when offered the sale of PFO... (Again, assuming the original article is accurate)

02/04/2009, 07:53 AM	#10
adunne Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: enfield ct Posts: 498	Is Planet LLC owned or have affiliation with Orbital Technologies??

02/04/2009, 07:54 AM	#11
Obi-dad Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: CT Posts: 4,314	This bites. __________________ Greg, member of ARKSC and CTARS Visit our CTARS club website by clicking my RC name then 'visit homepage' - and please support your LFS Current Tank Info: 75g mostly stonies. DIY LEDs (24 CW XP-G, 48 RB XR-E) on dwizum CAT4101 drivers, DIY Hydra controller, SSB, Korallin Ca Reactor, Euroreef skimmer

02/04/2009, 10:34 AM	#12
sploke Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Eastern CT Posts: 665	From Planet's homepage: At PLANET, we strive to transition valuable technologies from their initial development stages to viable commercial markets through production and sales, equity or market partnerships, and technology or product licenses. Launched in 1995 in Madison , Wisconsin under a strategic alliance with Orbital Technologies Corporation (ORBITEC), PLANET provides an outlet to commercial markets for ORBITECâ€™s advanced space technologies. In return, PLANETâ€™s products have had continuous access to ORBITEC's experienced research team to support future developments and improvements. So, it looks like they are basically a storefront company for Orbitec's technologies. __________________ -Matt Current Tank Info: 265 reef w/ 200gal sump Last edited by sploke; 02/04/2009 at 10:43 AM.

02/04/2009, 11:30 AM	#13
MasterDrazhar Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Colchester, CT. Posts: 79	That blows!

02/04/2009, 11:48 AM	#14
hans1976 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 3,239	I am not 100% sure people aren't leaping here. We know there is a lawsuit. We have heard that PFO laid the staff off (although PFO has not confirmed that). We don't know that if they did, it is because of the lawsuit or it may just be that business is very slow. Chrysler, GM and Ford laid workers off for 5 weeks, does that meant that they closed up shop? PFO is supposed to be at the conference. I called Joy last night to see if she indeed is going to come, but there was no answer. I will send them an email tonight - I don't want to sell their space if they are indeed going to be there. Hopefully they don't go the route of "WavySea". __________________ Jeff PAST CTARS President Past MASNA Treasurer

02/04/2009, 12:11 PM	#15
fitch4 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CT Posts: 1,988	Joy does not work for PFO anymore... does that answer your question? __________________ 2020 New England Frag Farmer's Market March 7, 2020 E.O. Smith High School in Storrs CT Largest Single Day Coral Show in the U.S.! - 100+ Vendors! Current Tank Info: 100, 135 reefs and 150g and 800g frag tanks

02/04/2009, 02:35 PM	#16
sploke Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Eastern CT Posts: 665	So...Orbitec's patent only specifically covers "marine growth"...seems that PFO could start selling fixtures to the FW planted tank market to supplement sales until this thing is straightened out. __________________ -Matt Current Tank Info: 265 reef w/ 200gal sump

02/04/2009, 02:35 PM	#17
Maritimegod112 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 466	I wonder if this will affect the product I am using on my tank by Solar Oasis. It works!

02/04/2009, 04:00 PM	#18
Gobie74 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: South Windsor, CT Posts: 924	I hate patents.

02/04/2009, 04:13 PM	#19
Maritimegod112 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 466	Also, I called Orbital Technologies and apparantly only PFO is targeted for now and they only did it because of "tough times". The lady on the phone said they were not wanting to do it, and they will most likely not attack other companies such as aquailluminations, but no one can predict what a large company like is can do with such a patent.

02/04/2009, 05:38 PM	#20
T5PO Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Windsor CT Posts: 1,085	Im not sure if its a world or American Patent only??? There are European Companies that make L.E.D. fixtures. If all else fails im sure of one Country in Asia that will have L.E.D. fixtures available labeled for a different use, and way cheaper. We will all have L.E.D.'s. I dont think its such a Big Blow to our hobby. The majority of Reefers cant afford the fixtures anyway. Dont get me wrong i do want L.E.D.'s, but for now the halides are working just fine. __________________ How Does Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy live in Bikini Bottom??? Last edited by T5PO; 02/04/2009 at 06:23 PM.

02/04/2009, 07:42 PM	#21
camarojweed Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Chesapeake, VA Posts: 1,648	This is an interesting issue...PFO dumped all of its other lighting to go LED and didn't have patents in place (and was over 2 years behind Orbital) Seems like some very poor business decisions...the other thread said PFO was offered an option to give 25% as a patent fee...I am sure they were less than polite at that offer..since it is a little outrageous, but PFOs fixtures are very expensive (50% off right now on marinedepot though) and have a poor track record for sustained operation...so there is a lot of speculation what will happen, but I am willing to bet we will not be hearing from PFO for a while, if at all...I am more willing to bet that they resurface as a new company after restructing... Sad to see in the hobby, but as we have discussed, these are businesses and they must follow the laws...

02/05/2009, 07:19 AM	#23
hans1976 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 3,239	From what I read...Wavy Sea out of business? Not sure if Anne is just spreading rumors, but I don't see them at MD anymore. __________________ Jeff PAST CTARS President Past MASNA Treasurer

02/05/2009, 09:53 AM	#24
argi Everybody Talks Join Date: May 2002 Location: East Haddam, CT Posts: 3,210	Wavy Sea has been gone for close to a year now I think (or at least 6 months). __________________ "We're so busy watching out for what's just ahead of us that we don't take time to enjoy where we are." Calvin & Hobbes "Never become so much of an expert that you stop gaining expertise. View life as a continuous learning experience." Denis Waitley

02/05/2009, 09:28 PM	#25
Smitty750 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bethel, Connecticut Posts: 607	This is being blown way out of proportion, PFO will be fine they will change theyre design and LED drivers. Orbitec has involved with the production and research of horticultural lighting, and have slowly branched into aquarium lighting through theyre partner company, LED's are what they design and use and have been for years. Orbitec isnt the bad guy here __________________ Um, I need money!!! Current Tank Info: 125 AGA Work in progress