Aragamilk

[SaltyFin21]

Hi guys i purchased my first reef yesterday and was told to use caribsea aragamilk... What do you guys think about that??

[Ritten]

Personally, I think just do your weekly water changes and you'll be fine with out additives. I do not keep sps though so I can't speak to that.

[TheH]

Seems reasonable for a low calcium demand aquarium. Try posting in the Reef Chemistry subforum.

[soulsigma]

If you have a true reef containing corals you will need to do more than w/c to maintain you're parameters. Alk, Calc, Mag just to name a few.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Aragamilk is a useless additive, as it won't dissolve in seawater.

I review it and similar products here:

Calcium Carbonate as a Supplement
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...y2002/chem.htm

[lostintheocean]

try it and see if it works. use it for a while then dont and see if there is a difference

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you do use it and try to track calcium and alkalinity, be warned that you may get false high test kit readings, as if the product worked even when it doesn’t.

The issue is that if there are suspended fine particles of calcium carbonate in the water that is tested, they will dissolve in the acidic environment of an alkalinity test (which goes down to about pH 4-5) and probably a calcium test as well since they are also acidic.

I’ve publicly challenged companies like Kent (with a similar product called Liquid Reactor which I debated with then Kent employee Chris Brightwell) as well as the general RC population to show any thriving hard coral reef tank where this was the only means of supplementing calcium and alkalinity. To date, and this was several years ago, no one has ever stepped forward to make the claim.

[Lyfey]

Randy, I just read your article. It makes alot of sense and Im far from a chemistry major.
I have a question. I have been expirimenting with my ATO and my 5gal Jug of ATO RO/DI water.

I have been adding Standard Arm and Hammer baking soda at 2 tbsp / 5 gallons of water to my ATO. Sofar my ALk has been stable at 8.5DKH, where I want it to be. Before I transitioned to baking soda I was using ALKALINE 8.3P (made by brightwell) and I was adding a few tablespoons here and there to my ATO water.

I have noticed since transitioning to the baking soda, that it does not completely dissolve and therefore I shake up my ATO bucket at least once a day. Do I need to? Do you think that 2 tbsp. of baking soda is enough alk for a 75 gallon frag filled SPS tank? Is this causing my tank water to become cloudy as of late?

I am also thinking about switching to Kalk and adding to my ATO with my Tunze Osmolator. I heard of using Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime over the store brands of Kalk. Where do I find it and is it the same exact thing? Do I need to still suppliment Magnesium? I have been also dropping in 2 tbsp of Kents Liquid Calcium into my ATO also along with the Alk baking soda and/or Alkaline 8.3p (Im out of the 8.3p, wont buy again)
By mixing the Liquid calcium with the baking soda, does that create a hostile environment chemically? Thanks Randy, I need your helps!

-Chris

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure what material might be not dissolving in that 5 gallons. I wouldn't worry about it much if most seems to be dissolving. The baking soda itself should be quite soluble, but it can take a while if you are trying to dissolve a lot. You can warm it to get it to dissolve if you want. A cup should be able to dissolve in a gallon of RO/DI.

You can get Mrs. Wages at some big grocery stores (at least at the canning time of the year; summer or fall), or online at www.mrswages.com.

I recently bought calcium hydroxide to make limewater from Bulk Reef Supply.

You CANNOT mix both calcium and alkalinity supplements in fresh water.

[Lyfey]

Awesome Randy!
What happens if you do dissolve calcium and alkalinity supplements in the same water at the same time? There should be a tiny amount of calcium suppliment still in the ATO water along with the baking soda. Do I have to worry or dump that water now? I lose about 1 gallon to evaporation daily.

With the calcium hydroxide / Mrs. Wages. Are they the exact same thing look / ingredients wise? Do you still reccoment 1tsp / gallon of ATO water? Will this harm my Tunze osmolator pump over time? Do I have to mix the water or just dump it into the ATO container and it dissolves by itself?

I used to dissolve calcium additive (Elemental by brightwells which probably is like aragamilk) with the alkalinity suppliment in the same cup in the same water and then dumped it into the tank.

Thanks so much Randy, I have learned so much from you since I started reefing a few years back and its great to ask you questions personally. Thank you!

-Chris

[DJREEF]

Dump the old water. You can dose one or the other, not both at the same time. You'll end up with a precipitation event that will cloud the tank with useless CaCO3 (AKA Aragamilk).

DJ

[Lyfey]

So thats why my water was cloudy for 2 days.. Not very cloudy, but cloudy enough! Makes alot of sense.

So Brightwells The Elemental product actually says to dose at nightime because it will turn your tank to milk for 12 hours or so and then the next day everything is covered with a white "silt" So basically after reading randys article, this stuff is garbage and they have been advertising the perfect suppliment and actually it doesnt work at all?

[Lyfey]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

Dump the old water. You can dose one or the other, not both at the same time. You'll end up with a precipitation event that will cloud the tank with useless CaCO3 (AKA Aragamilk).

DJ

I see what you mean by dumping the water. I added the suppliments of calcium at most a week ago and the baking soda 3/4 days ago. Do you think with an evap rate of 1 gallon / day do you think its ok to leave it? I refill the ATO at least every other day and I just filled it back up last night. I just tuck the RO/DI outlet in the "airspout" of a standard 5 gallon water jug each time. So it never truly was empty, only half empty at most when I refill it up.

do you think the CaC03 has cycled out of the water? I only added 2 tablespoons of Kents Liquid Calcium with 2 tablespoons of baking soda. I have put Alkaline 8.3P in there about 2 weeks ago along with more liquid calcium but I am sure that has cycled out by now. Each night I try to shake up the jug because there is settling of something in there, be it baking soda or left over alkaline 8.3P.

Thanks for your input, I might just dump it and rinse it and start over. I am going to make a bulk reef supply order today and buy some kalk powder, any reccomendations? I will fresh rinse the ATO jug before I add any Kalk.

I did buy the balanced 2 part system from them a month ago, I have yet to mix everything up yet though! I've been lazy. No wonder my SPS grow agonizingly slow! duh..

[Lyfey]

Randy in retrospect to SPS growth, since my lighting is garbage. Nova Extreme 8x54w with the single reflector and only 6 bulbs working. What do you think the ratio of SPS growth is from Light to water chemistry? I have been using this tank as my SPS learning and grow out tank before I buy my show tank.

With dosing Kalk through my ATO, do you think I will notice a big difference in growth and coloration since I slack on my manual dosing?

[DJREEF]

Well, in fairness to Brightwells, they prefer that you dose at night because your pH is naturally lower. This helps disolve the product into solution (obviously not very well). I suspect that you may have overdosed the product slightly, which can cause an in tank CaCo3 precip event.

DJ

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by Lyfey

I see what you mean by dumping the water. I added the suppliments of calcium at most a week ago and the baking soda 3/4 days ago. Do you think with an evap rate of 1 gallon / day do you think its ok to leave it? I refill the ATO at least every other day and I just filled it back up last night. I just tuck the RO/DI outlet in the "airspout" of a standard 5 gallon water jug each time. So it never truly was empty, only half empty at most when I refill it up.

do you think the CaC03 has cycled out of the water? I only added 2 tablespoons of Kents Liquid Calcium with 2 tablespoons of baking soda. I have put Alkaline 8.3P in there about 2 weeks ago along with more liquid calcium but I am sure that has cycled out by now. Each night I try to shake up the jug because there is settling of something in there, be it baking soda or left over alkaline 8.3P.

Thanks for your input, I might just dump it and rinse it and start over. I am going to make a bulk reef supply order today and buy some kalk powder, any reccomendations? I will fresh rinse the ATO jug before I add any Kalk.

I did buy the balanced 2 part system from them a month ago, I have yet to mix everything up yet though! I've been lazy. No wonder my SPS grow agonizingly slow! duh..

You might be wise to do a mixed 2 part dosing setup using 2 separate containers. Do you manually dose or are they automated. I've always dosed one in the AM one in the PM, and never had much of a problem, as long as the levels didn't exceed NSW.

DJ

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are they the exact same thing look / ingredients wise?

Yes, calcium hydroxide. I describe different grades and how to use it and loads of other stuff about it here:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, in fairness to Brightwells, they prefer that you dose at night because your pH is naturally lower. This helps disolve the product into solution

FWIW, if the tank pH is dropping low enough to dissolve the aragonite in that product, then aragonite coral skeletons are also potentially dissolving, and I'd work to raise the pH. That starts to happen around pH 7.7 and lower.

[Lyfey]

Ill check out that article randy.
Just made my order with BRS

Item Sku Qty Subtotal
1 Gallon - 4.5 Pounds Bulk Kalkwasser (Calcium Hydroxide) for Aquariums 000241 1 $11.99
New Life Spectrum Marine Formula 1mm Sinking 150 Gram 205211 1 $7.99
Dual BRS GFO and Carbon Reactor 204171 1 $59.99
1.75 Pounds (794 Grams) Bulk GFO High Capacity Ferric Oxide 000621 1 $59.99
Maxi-Jet Powerhead 1200 ( 295GPH) 202264 1 $24.99
Reef Epoxy - Oceans Wonders 205355 1 $5.99
Reef Glue GEL - Oceans Wonders 205354 1 $6.99


Going to try GFO and a reactor for carbon for the first time also. I've used ESV carbon for a while now passively in a mesh bag in the sump, first time using a reactor and GFO.

To get back on topic.. DJREEF, I dose manually and I still need to mix up the components of the two part Ca/Alk/Mg from BRS and I will start dosing manually. I am hoping the kalk will take care of everything until my corals get bigger. I have just been lazy and dosing "when it feels right" I test alk alot now, CA not so much. I have noticed that when my alk is low, my Duncan and Blastos look shriveled and not plump, that has usually sparked me to test and dose alk. I will test Ca/Mg/Alk tonight.

why do you dose in the AM / PM? Cant you dose at the same time?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With dosing Kalk through my ATO, do you think I will notice a big difference in growth and coloration since I slack on my manual dosing?

If you otherwise are stressing corals by letting alkalinity drop too much, the corals will be healthier and grow faster. Whether that translates to colors, I can't say.

What do you think the ratio of SPS growth is from Light to water chemistry?

I wouldn't want to guess on that. Sorry.

[Lyfey]

Randy, I just read your article. Well written and I learned alot about Limewater.

In my situation where I use a 5 gallon water jug rather than your 44 gallon trash can. I have to add water to the jug every 3-4 days MAX. I was reading about the limewater where you say that it is saturated clear water with deposits on the bottom of the jug. How long will it take me to develop these deposits? I suppose I should suspend my ATO pump 3-4 inches above the bottom of the jug to prevent dosing a slurry.

I saw that you reccomended in another thread 1 level teaspoon / gallon of top of water. I have also heard that you cannot add too much kalk to water because it disolves on its own and no mixing is needed. My question is, how much limewater do I need to dose and how often should I add more. I do not have any SPS colonies, they are all small to large size frags. I am scared that I will put too much kalk into my ATO jug and the limewater will be too saturated or I will accidentally dose a slurry or I do not add enough kalk to make the saturated limewater. I do not think I need full saturated limewater for ATO due to the size and intake of calcium/alk of my small corals.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think folks typically see settled solids in any size batch, even the first batch. Yes, putting the intake a bit above the bottom is a good idea.

2 teaspoons per gallon of fresh water is about the max that will dissolve. I recommend that folks start at 1 since it may be adequate, and going may be easier than trying to correct a problem from too much.

[Lyfey]

When I add the kalk do I need to shake the jug? Should it disolve on its own? If I find settled solids within the first batch does that mean I need to stir it more? I am a little confused on what I need to do.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Shake it a bit, but it dissolves fairly easily. Then let it settle. I use a powerhead in my large reservoir.

Solids can mean undissolved lime, but that does not mean that it can all dissolve with more shaking, and the solids can also be other things that won't dissolve (like calcium carbonate, which forms when lime reacts with Co2, as from the air).