Basement Sump Problems

[austin93]

I have my 100g stock tank in the basement with a mak4 pumping water up to the main level of our house. Of course, I don't heat the basement nearly as well as the upstairs, so it get cold down there. I currently run 500w of heaters to keep the tank warm. I have insulated the tank, but it still doesn't make much difference IMO. I am strongly considering putting this sump back under the stand ( of course a smaller version) in hopes of running the heaters much less. I figure they run at least half of the day which is probably costing me about 20 to 25$ per month. Has anyone ran into this problem before and what has been their solution. I figure I could still run plumbing into the basement for water changes and storing chemicals such as mag and cal.

[m2434]

I like the basement idea, I am doing this now, but realize a big sump is problematic for this reason. So, I'm running a smaller sump.

ignoring any insulation, pump heat etc... basically the amount of electricity used is mostly dependent on delta, where delta is the difference in ambient temperature and the desired temperature.

This is a bit simplified, but essentially delta is just a weighted average of the temperature differences from the main tank and the sump.

It looks like your main tank is 150g and sump 100g?

So, lets say you set your reef to 78deg and upstairs averages 72deg and the basement 60. Delta for upstairs is 78-72=6 and downstairs is 78-60=18.

So, the weighted delta is [(6*150) + (18*100)] / (100 + 150) = 10.8deg
So, the sump is adding an 80% increase to delta and your heating bill.

if you changed your sump to say 30g volume, and left it in the basement, it would be [(6*150) + (18*30)] / (30 + 150) = 8 which is only a 33% increase and your heating less volume....

Of course moving upstairs will be cheaper, but you loose a lot of benefits IMO...

[Green_Reefer]

Do you cover the stock tank top with rigid insulation, are the plumbing lines insulated, is the sump sitting on the floor? 150g tank with a 100g sump and a lot of plumbing all being heated by 500w isn't bad, I have a 75g DT and 100g stock tank and use 400w to heat it.

I ran a single 200w for a few hours today and my system temp slowly dropped with an outside temp just below freezing. I have my system in the basement and keep the temp around 70 in the room with the tank and sump. I have my stock tank on some foam mats and no other insulation at all.

[m2434]

Also, another thought, If you really want volume, you could always cascade two sumps. If you had a sump under the stand that was drilled for an overflow and then flowed down to a second sump in the basement to use for maintenance and such...

[austin93]

Thank you for the responses. They are very well thought out. In response, I have the sump elevated, no insulation on the pipes, and the top is not covered. I was thinking maybe a covered top would be beneficial. I really don't understand how the Delta thing works, but it seems very logical. I will have to do more research on the subject. I really think that the last option is the best for my application. I would like to just run plumbing to the basement so i can easily do waterchanges and put dosing pumps and the like down there. This would probably allow me to use a smaller return pump also, further decreasing energy costs. I believe heaters are the main expense of my system right now. Please keep the ideas coming, as I would love to hear others opinions on this.

[gary faulkner]

I keep the basement at 70 F plus 1500 watts of heaters running most all the time for a 400 gal. total system. Have to pay ifin you're gonna play 8-)

[mc-cro]

I have had a basement sump for years, a 100g stock tank, and I will never, ever, go back to a sump under the stand. My basement averages 65* I put some layers of foam board insulation under the tank to insulate it from the concrete floor. I also have a DSB in the sump, so I think the sand also helps keep the water temp somewhat stable, all that sand at temp has to raidate some heat and insulate some? I never thought about insulating the pipes, but it is something to consider.

It may cost a little more to heat, however, the ease and access makes it totally worth it.

[JR719]

Wish I had a basement. I would put a huge sump in there. Couple layers of foam board under the tank and would use that expanding foam all around the sides. Make a good 3" or more layer on the sides. For winter, would cover around 3/4 of the sump to hold heat. Your lucky to have the room unlike some of us.

[nickman]

id say putting the tank on some ridgid foam, wrapping the pipes and putting foam directly on the surface of the water would help a ton and not cost much. I read in a coral green house thread that putting the foam on the surface of the water helped hold a large amount of heat and didnt have a negative effect on the system. overflows and skimmer should aerate the tank sufficiently to cover the loss of gas exchange on the surface.

-nick

[m2434]

Originally Posted by austin93

Thank you for the responses. They are very well thought out. In response, I have the sump elevated, no insulation on the pipes, and the top is not covered. I was thinking maybe a covered top would be beneficial. I really don't understand how the Delta thing works, but it seems very logical. I will have to do more research on the subject. I really think that the last option is the best for my application. I would like to just run plumbing to the basement so i can easily do waterchanges and put dosing pumps and the like down there. This would probably allow me to use a smaller return pump also, further decreasing energy costs. I believe heaters are the main expense of my system right now. Please keep the ideas coming, as I would love to hear others opinions on this.

No Problem, also, just to clarify, the above calculations are really a worst case scenario. So, in all likelihood, the actual effect of the basement temperature would be a lot less. I would agree with others, insulation, if well thought out, could make the difference significantly less. As for removing the pump, I think the MAK4 is 138 Watts. I don't know how far up you need to go, but you probably don't need that big of a pump. After a lot of research, I found the Iwaki RT20. I raised up a bit so that I could keep the head to about 10', doing so gives me about 220gph, which I think is fine for a sump, but it only uses 45 watts. Most smaller pumps for understand use were not much less than that... So, I don't think it really adds anything. Assuming .12kw.hr, your pump is costing about $12 a month, switching to a 45W pump would be about $4 a month. Not huge, but bit adds up.

[royvoss]

i have a basment sump for 5 years now, yeah the heat thing can be a pia in winter, especially when the kinds leave the windows open on the coldest day of the year. in the summer the chiler does not run very much. this would be the other side of the coin.

[snulma1]

It stinks in the cold weather to heat it, but I imagine it will help a good deal in the warmer weather to keep it cooler

[austin93]

Well, I think there are a lot of benefits to it. I am still making some changes. I am going to use a 29 that I have and buy a 20L making them into a dual sump system. 1 would be a refugium and the other a skimmer and return chamber. Hopefully this works. I will still have a return pump downstairs so that I can put my water change system there as well as dosing pumps so chemicals are away from the kid. Has anyone done this before?

[bhammer]

A bud that lives in NW Kansas has the problem of keeping his sump equipment warm during the winter. He insulates all his pipes, has the sump off the ground and insulated. He also picked up, what looks like bubble wrap, from a pool supply company. He places that on top of the water in his sump. The bubble wrap stuff is used to keep swimming pools warmer. He has a couple different water vessels in his basment insulated this way. He cut down heater use by 2/3.

[on the spot]

Guessing how much it costs does tell you how much it costs...

500 watts on half the time @.12 KWH is about 11 bucks a month.


Or so, I'm guessing