HELP! New 90G FOWLR Tank ICH Outbreak

[Tonytrigger]

I'd like to start out by thanking everyone in advance for taking the time to read this post and offer any comments.


As a quick background I started my 90G FOWLR tank w/Live Sand Bed 6 weeks ago. Using a Wet/Dry Filter with BioBall filter media, to establish the filter during the first week I introduced 3 gallons of BioBalls from a friends FOWLR tank which has been running for 7+ years, in addition he gave me some of his filter pads and 15 gallons of water to help introduce beneficial bacteria. During the first week I purchased 30lbs of cured live rock from my LFS where I purchased all of my equipment from. I let the tank run with just the live rock for two weeks and then introduced 5 damsels to the tank (a three stripe, (2)blue w/yellow tail and (2)Black w/yellow tail. A weekslater I purchased a small Picasso Trigger and a week after that a Stars & Stripes Puffer. All of the fish are still alive but unfortunately I'm pretty sure a few of them now have ICH. Yesterday I noticed small white spots on the Black Damsels and my Picasso is rubbing on the rocks/sand pretty often.

After doing some reading on this forum and various other online article I've taken the following steps:

* Lowered the salinity from 1.120 to 1.115
* Raised the temperature of the tank to 80 degrees
* Kept the lights in the tank off
* Dosed the tank with Rid ICH Plus by Kordon (This was recommended from my LFS where all of these fish came from including the Live Rock and the ICH )
* Installed a 25w AquaUltraViolet UV Sterilizer (I know it's a bit after the fact but I figured it couldn't hurt now and will hopefully help aid in preventing thing in the future)

The LFS said to continue the treatment for (4) days and see if I notice the white spots diminishing on the fish but told me that dropping the salinity isn't going to help at all.

Are the steps I outlined above correct or did I screw up?

Is there anything else that I can do to resolve the outbreak and hopefully keep the fish alive?

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again,

Anthony

[Rockys_Pride]

yikes bro. Did you test the water before adding fish? It could be that the cycle wasn't complete and the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are in high supply and is stressing the fish out. IMO, this has now become your quarantine tank.

[Tonytrigger]

Originally Posted by Rockys_Pride

yikes bro. Did you test the water before adding fish? It could be that the cycle wasn't complete and the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are in high supply and is stressing the fish out. IMO, this has now become your quarantine tank.

Rocky,

I didn't test the water prior to putting the damsels in but I did test it before introducing the trigger and puffer. I had the following according to my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Kit:

Ammonia - 0.25PPM
Nitrites - 0.00 PPM
Nitrates - 40 PPM

[Sk8r]

Well, a long list of basic problems, and without judgement, just a list of them: you should not expect a cycle to be under 4 weeks, you should never put fish in before a full crew of inverts, you should be really careful taking anything from somebody's working tank because of the possibility of moving ich in, you should never medicate your display tank [kills bacteria you're cycling to encourage]. Ie, just about everything you've done has a problem attached, and then the cure you undertook has one nearly as bad...dosing a display tank [dt] with a miracle cure---the only good news is that it's worthless, and probably won't do too much damage.

What to do: Pull all the fish to a bare glass tank now, and treat with hypo, and since they are all combative types, you'll need to create a 'forest' of standing pvc pipe to keep them from going at it like a blender. This requires several pieces of equipment to do right: an ATO: [autotopoff: visit Avast, one of our sponsors, for a nice one] and a refractometer [lfs]. Over 48 hours, lower the salinity of your bare tank with all fish and pvc and plain floss filter [no carbon!] to an absolutely accurate 1.009. DO NOT MEDICAtE: THE LOWERED SALINITY WILL KILL THE ICH. aND NEVER DO THIS salinity-drop TO YOUR MAIN TANK, EITHER!!!!!

Note the time of the LAST observation of a spot on your fish, GO 4 WEEKS AFTER THAT DATE---have that ATO running so that salinity never varies!---

4 weeks after the last spot, your fish will be ready to go back to their tank, so now you raise the salinity in the bare tank to 1.024 and keep watching them to be sure there's no relapse.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your main tank will have to go 8 weeks with no FISH in it for the ich to die out. If this coincides with your fish being ready, fine, but probably your fish will have to cool their heels in jail until that dt is ready.

once you have demonstrably cycled, [past 4 weeks, ample growth of algae present]---then add inverts, snails, etc, and let them work for 2 weeks to prepare the sandbed for fish. Be sure the salinity matches that of your bare tank.

THEN introduce your clean, healthy fish into your now-ich-free tank. And meanwhile read every sticky at the top of this forum to avoid any other pitfall. Don't get your advice from fish stores: half of them are good; half of them don't give good advice. I suspect you've gotten this advice from an lfs, and I really hope you can get through this without losing heart.

[Tonytrigger]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Well, a long list of basic problems, and without judgement, just a list of them: you should not expect a cycle to be under 4 weeks, you should never put fish in before a full crew of inverts, you should be really careful taking anything from somebody's working tank because of the possibility of moving ich in, you should never medicate your display tank [kills bacteria you're cycling to encourage]. Ie, just about everything you've done has a problem attached, and then the cure you undertook has one nearly as bad...dosing a display tank [dt] with a miracle cure---the only good news is that it's worthless, and probably won't do too much damage.

What to do: Pull all the fish to a bare glass tank now, and treat with hypo, and since they are all combative types, you'll need to create a 'forest' of standing pvc pipe to keep them from going at it like a blender. This requires several pieces of equipment to do right: an ATO: [autotopoff: visit Avast, one of our sponsors, for a nice one] and a refractometer [lfs]. Over 48 hours, lower the salinity of your bare tank with all fish and pvc and plain floss filter [no carbon!] to an absolutely accurate 1.009. DO NOT MEDICAtE: THE LOWERED SALINITY WILL KILL THE ICH. aND NEVER DO THIS salinity-drop TO YOUR MAIN TANK, EITHER!!!!!

Note the time of the LAST observation of a spot on your fish, GO 4 WEEKS AFTER THAT DATE---have that ATO running so that salinity never varies!---

4 weeks after the last spot, your fish will be ready to go back to their tank, so now you raise the salinity in the bare tank to 1.024 and keep watching them to be sure there's no relapse.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your main tank will have to go 8 weeks with no FISH in it for the ich to die out. If this coincides with your fish being ready, fine, but probably your fish will have to cool their heels in jail until that dt is ready.

once you have demonstrably cycled, [past 4 weeks, ample growth of algae present]---then add inverts, snails, etc, and let them work for 2 weeks to prepare the sandbed for fish. Be sure the salinity matches that of your bare tank.

THEN introduce your clean, healthy fish into your now-ich-free tank. And meanwhile read every sticky at the top of this forum to avoid any other pitfall. Don't get your advice from fish stores: half of them are good; half of them don't give good advice. I suspect you've gotten this advice from an lfs, and I really hope you can get through this without losing heart.

Sk8r,

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply, from what your telling me I'm in pretty bad shape. I don't have a spare tank right now so I'll have to purchase one at the LFS. What size would your suggest 20Gal? Also what would you suggest for a "Plain Floss Filter"? Will something like a small Fluval do? While the fish are in this quarantine tank do I continue to feed them normally?


Just FYI after lowering the salinity in my DT and medicating yesterday I already see a huge difference in the amount of spots on my Black Damsels and the Trigger fish is rarely rubbing anymore. Is that a good sign or is this just false hope?


Thanks Again For Your Help,

Anthony

[Sk8r]

Well, actually, it's good for the fish, but bad for your sandbed: they just shed a bunch of little cysts each containing mega-many ich reproductions into your sandbed, where they will take hold and hatch, so best just get those fish out of there.

How big a qt depends on size of the fish: if all under 2" a 20 might be enough. Go to Lowes and get some random unthreaded pvc pipe, some unthreaded elbows, t-joints, etc, and assemble a jungle gym of sorts, that will form a maze for them inside that 20: these are aggressive types, and having a sense of 'barrier' between them and a target will calm them, I hope.

You can also get some cheap tanks at Petco, etc. Just floss (I use polyester pillow stuffing which comes in huge bags at the hobby store and is cheap) and a Fluval would be good. Change that floss every time it stains, and get some eggcrate lighting grid from Lowes to make a jump shield. These fish are going to be nervous in a smaller tank, and might jump.

All said, just let that main tank continue to cycle for at least 8 weeks total, maybe 12---let it grow algae and put some snails in there to poo into the sandbed and get its bacteria back on track.

With your fish in hypo, you just keep changing that filter medium daily, test your water for ammonia every day or twice a day---do not overfeed them: fouling their water is far more dangerous than starvation!---and with hypo, draw a very careful fill line on that tank and top off 2x daily as needed: that fill line [I use tape] will make sure the water stays right on 1.009---it's absolutely essential it not get saltier because of evaporation (salt doesn't evaporate) because higher salinity would not kill this parasite. The fish won't mind it much at all, and it won't depress their appetites the way copper treatment will---nor will it damage their kidneys.

As above, 4 weeks after you see the last of the ich gone from the fish, you start bringing that water up to 1.024 to match your tank salinity, and if it has been over 8 weeks since you had a fish in your tank (snails don't count) you can put your fish on in: always match salinity as exactly as possible---destroys kidneys if too abrupt and deep a change.

Your fishes are due at least a few weeks at the Hilton, not having to work for a living, staying in a jungle gym, and being coddled and fed and cleaned-up-after.

After you get through this 1) quarantine every new fish for 4 weeks observation (no hypo needed if no ich) before letting him in your display tank 2) dip any corals you get to kill off their pests 3) never, ever, ever put a dose of anything but buffer into your main tank---or at least ask before you do it. If there were miracle cures for ich, we wouldn't have this problem, eh? and nobody would have to quarantine. And get those ATOs as soon as you can: the taped line and twice-daily topoff will keep your salinity pretty steady, but there's no substitute for having the water spoonfed to your tank by the ounce. It keeps everything healthier.

As long as you keep that filter floss changed every time it stains, you should be ok re ammonia, but having a bottle of Amquel on hand assures you'll have it if there's any problem. Also a 10% water change will lower ammonia on an emergency basis. Take ammonia very, very seriously: a little ammonia can be lethal, and it develops naturally in unchanged filters and with overfeeding.

[Palting]

I gotta hand it to you, Sk8r. That is one excellent treatise on one specific tank with multiple problems.

Tonytrigger, I suggest you save Sk8r's post in you hard drive. Maybe even print it and pin it by your tank so you can keep referring to it. That is one well thought out response, it is specific to your needs, and I do not believe you will get any better advice from anyone else.

[jdyer88]

Originally Posted by Palting

That is one well thought out response, it is specific to your needs, and I do not believe you will get any better advice from anyone else.

As usual!

[BigGimp77]

+1 on Sk8r's advice.

And thanks to Sk8r's for always patrolling the newbies board and helping everyone out.

[Sk8r]

Y'all are very kind. Might I add kudos for our OP, TonyTrigger, who started with "Let me thank you in advance" and when presented an elaborate program came back not with "I don't want to!" but with "what will work that I can do right now?"

It's a pleasure to help someone who by the courtesy of his posts greatly deserves better advice.

[karsseboom]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Y'all are very kind. Might I add kudos for our OP, TonyTrigger, who started with "Let me thank you in advance" and when presented an elaborate program came back not with "I don't want to!" but with "what will work that I can do right now?"

It's a pleasure to help someone who by the courtesy of his posts greatly deserves better advice.

omg your my ldol ''sk8r''

[DownwardDawg]

That may be the best response I've ever read.

[Tonytrigger]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Y'all are very kind. Might I add kudos for our OP, TonyTrigger, who started with "Let me thank you in advance" and when presented an elaborate program came back not with "I don't want to!" but with "what will work that I can do right now?"

It's a pleasure to help someone who by the courtesy of his posts greatly deserves better advice.

Sk8r,

Thanks again for dedicating the amount of time that you did on this response ultimately architecting a solution for my individual issue. Unfortunately the situation I'm in is my fault for taking the advice of my LFS (I won't make that mistake again) and I have to fix it. Even though there are only a few fish in the tank and they aren't expensive I dont want to see them die so I'll do whatever is needed to correct this situation. I've officially wrote off my LFS after this issue and discovering they don't quarantine or treat any of their incoming fish! The day they come in their for sale! When i went in to let them know i had an ICH outbreak the owner responded "What do you wanna do about it?" How ridiculous is that response?

A great store I found which is about 30 mins from my house is "Absolutely Fish" in Clifton NJ, the store is impeccable, staff is knowledgeable, very helpful and they quarantine all of their fish for two weeks prior to moving them to the display tanks for sale. This is where the rest of my fish are coming from once my problem is cured. If anyone lives in the area I would recommend taking a ride over..

Again your feedback/advice is much appreciated.

Anthony

[Sk8r]

So glad you've found a good source!

[Tonytrigger]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Well, actually, it's good for the fish, but bad for your sandbed: they just shed a bunch of little cysts each containing mega-many ich reproductions into your sandbed, where they will take hold and hatch, so best just get those fish out of there.

How big a qt depends on size of the fish: if all under 2" a 20 might be enough. Go to Lowes and get some random unthreaded pvc pipe, some unthreaded elbows, t-joints, etc, and assemble a jungle gym of sorts, that will form a maze for them inside that 20: these are aggressive types, and having a sense of 'barrier' between them and a target will calm them, I hope.

You can also get some cheap tanks at Petco, etc. Just floss (I use polyester pillow stuffing which comes in huge bags at the hobby store and is cheap) and a Fluval would be good. Change that floss every time it stains, and get some eggcrate lighting grid from Lowes to make a jump shield. These fish are going to be nervous in a smaller tank, and might jump.

All said, just let that main tank continue to cycle for at least 8 weeks total, maybe 12---let it grow algae and put some snails in there to poo into the sandbed and get its bacteria back on track.

With your fish in hypo, you just keep changing that filter medium daily, test your water for ammonia every day or twice a day---do not overfeed them: fouling their water is far more dangerous than starvation!---and with hypo, draw a very careful fill line on that tank and top off 2x daily as needed: that fill line [I use tape] will make sure the water stays right on 1.009---it's absolutely essential it not get saltier because of evaporation (salt doesn't evaporate) because higher salinity would not kill this parasite. The fish won't mind it much at all, and it won't depress their appetites the way copper treatment will---nor will it damage their kidneys.

As above, 4 weeks after you see the last of the ich gone from the fish, you start bringing that water up to 1.024 to match your tank salinity, and if it has been over 8 weeks since you had a fish in your tank (snails don't count) you can put your fish on in: always match salinity as exactly as possible---destroys kidneys if too abrupt and deep a change.

Your fishes are due at least a few weeks at the Hilton, not having to work for a living, staying in a jungle gym, and being coddled and fed and cleaned-up-after.

After you get through this 1) quarantine every new fish for 4 weeks observation (no hypo needed if no ich) before letting him in your display tank 2) dip any corals you get to kill off their pests 3) never, ever, ever put a dose of anything but buffer into your main tank---or at least ask before you do it. If there were miracle cures for ich, we wouldn't have this problem, eh? and nobody would have to quarantine. And get those ATOs as soon as you can: the taped line and twice-daily topoff will keep your salinity pretty steady, but there's no substitute for having the water spoonfed to your tank by the ounce. It keeps everything healthier.

As long as you keep that filter floss changed every time it stains, you should be ok re ammonia, but having a bottle of Amquel on hand assures you'll have it if there's any problem. Also a 10% water change will lower ammonia on an emergency basis. Take ammonia very, very seriously: a little ammonia can be lethal, and it develops naturally in unchanged filters and with overfeeding.

Sk8r,

Unfortunately my better half is giving me a *very* hard time about putting another tank in the house (guess she likes the look of the tank but not the dedication that goes along with it). Before this spills over into a serious argument I wanted to know what your opinion is on me performing a copper treatment in the my display tank. I know it will kill the "Live Rock" but it would kill of the ICH in the tank correct? If you think the copper treatment could be a cure which brand would you use and how would you go about the treatment?

Thanks again for your help and sorry to keep bugging you but I really want to save these little guys...

Anthony

[Sk8r]

OMG, no!
It would kill the whole tank---or effectively ruin it, necessitating a mess of remediation---after it kills all the fish by wiping out the bio-systems. The stuff is poison. There is NO way to treat in the main tank. And if any of the miracle-cure ich products actually worked, the hobby would turn handsprings in the street---they don't work.
Tell your wife it's a temporary tank, will be up for only a few weeks, and will go into storage when not in use.

[GrendelPrime76]

do u have a basement where u can set up ur hospital tank?

[Tonytrigger]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

OMG, no!
It would kill the whole tank---or effectively ruin it, necessitating a mess of remediation---after it kills all the fish by wiping out the bio-systems. The stuff is poison. There is NO way to treat in the main tank. And if any of the miracle-cure ich products actually worked, the hobby would turn handsprings in the street---they don't work.
Tell your wife it's a temporary tank, will be up for only a few weeks, and will go into storage when not in use.

I really have no place to set up this hospital tank so that's its out of the way. Besides setting it up right in front of the display tank (which is in the living room) and that's not going to fly with her. If it were up to just me it would be in the middle of the kitchen.. I'm really at a loss right now and don't know what to do.

[Palting]

Well...........

I know this is probably out of the box thinking, and I've gotten in trouble before here in RC for out of the box thinking, but here goes anyway.

Yes, IMO, you can treat the DT. I have done, hyposalinity on a 110 gal established tank. There are several very strong caveats, thought. There have to be NO inverts, no coral, unless you want to kill them all. Be prepared for multiple water changes and frequent cleaning of filters, as the hyposalinity will kill not just the Ich, but all the critters such as your copepods, amphipods, worms, etc. The good news is that your tank is still young, and hopefully will not have too many critters, and the other good news is that hypo will not kill the beneficial bacteria for biological filtration.

If you want to try this, here is a link to what I did: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1892446

[Sk8r]

It is certainly safer than putting a cures-all into your tank. The problem will be bioload. Do not push it with feeding: do not pity-feed. Every fish requires enough food to fill their mouth once a day, and that's all. Remember that a fish can go 2 weeks without eating easier than they can spend 2 minutes in polluted water. So hold feeding to the minimum, even if they will eat more---what you put into the tank is in the tank. Test for ammonia, obsessively. You are going to have to buy some inverts after this is over, unless you can keep THEM, and one small rock with worms and the like, in a small quarantine tank you maintain at 1.024.

Palting's idea is about the best alternate solution, and I think you should do it, but get that Amquel handy---don't use it unless you have to, but have it, in case. Test for ammonia morning and evening, and in between if you have any doubts. To make hypo work, you MUST stabilize that salinity at the hypo value of 1.009 and hold it meticulously. A fill line on your sump helps, if you don't have an ATO.

And do, for goodness sake, quarantine every new fish you acquire from now on.

[Tonytrigger]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

It is certainly safer than putting a cures-all into your tank. The problem will be bioload. Do not push it with feeding: do not pity-feed. Every fish requires enough food to fill their mouth once a day, and that's all. Remember that a fish can go 2 weeks without eating easier than they can spend 2 minutes in polluted water. So hold feeding to the minimum, even if they will eat more---what you put into the tank is in the tank. Test for ammonia, obsessively. You are going to have to buy some inverts after this is over, unless you can keep THEM, and one small rock with worms and the like, in a small quarantine tank you maintain at 1.024.

Palting's idea is about the best alternate solution, and I think you should do it, but get that Amquel handy---don't use it unless you have to, but have it, in case. Test for ammonia morning and evening, and in between if you have any doubts. To make hypo work, you MUST stabilize that salinity at the hypo value of 1.009 and hold it meticulously. A fill line on your sump helps, if you don't have an ATO.

And do, for goodness sake, quarantine every new fish you acquire from now on.

Sk8r,

My salinity is currently at 1.115 how quickly can I lower it to the 1.015? What temperature should I maintain (Currently at 76F) When doing so should I be using RO/DI water? Will I need to have anything on hand to adjust ph levels due to the change in salinity?

Again I can't thank all of you guys enough for your time and effort.

Anthony

[Sk8r]

Do you have a refractometer? ATO?
If you don't have an ato, do this: have a bucket of ro/di on hand. You can use ro water from the supermarket kiosk, and use a TDS meter to be sure it's really 0 tds...or if THEY need their filter changed!

Over the next number of hours, about 48---lower the salinity to a precise 1.009. Mark a line on your sump/or tank if no sump---which represents the water level when the salinity is perfect. Since salt does not evaporate, you do not have to add salt at any point, but you must go on adding ro/di as that water evaporates. Here's why you need an ATO---or meticulous attention to this taped line: if the water level drops, the salinity rises. That 90 may evaporate 2 gallons a day. This spells problems for the hypo plan---because rising salinity favors the parasite.

So---you 'top off' morning and night to be sure that water stays right at that fill-line. If you can enlist your wife, and if you're gone during the day, have her add water to the fill line at 9, at 12, at 3, and you can do it at 6 when you get home. If she balks at that, tell her do it at 12. [This is why an automatic topoff unit is far preferable: it does it by teaspoonfuls without intervention.].

Keep your temperature about 80 degrees. Keep your circulation going.
Get a piece of paper or small booklet and write down your test results or tape your test strips to it in order so you can see which direction things are going.
Test ph, test alkalinity; test for ammonia and nitrate. I use Salifert tests for alk [s/b 8.3-9.3], and have a meter for ph. Adjusting the alk is the easiest way to maintain ph, imho: just keep it in that range---I use Kent dkh Buffer for that purpose.

Remember if you do get an ammonia reading, first thing to do is a 20% water change with 1.009 salinity water. If that doesn't correct it, resort to the Amquel: follow directions on the bottle.

Remember too, that you must maintain this regimen until you see no spots at all on your fish---and then you must maintain it for 4 weeks more.
At the end of that time, you may adjust your salinity to 1.022 [preferred for FOWLR tanks] by topping off with salt water.

Your best next purchases are that refractometer, an alkalinity test kit, a jar of Kent dkh Buffer, and your own ro/di unit---you can Y a connection with the laundry area cold tap, put the waste water down the laundry drain, and keep the ro/di unit in your bucket in the closet when not in use. Until you get your own ro/di, the ability to test water you buy is important: a tds meter is pretty cheap---cleaning up the mess bad water can cause is far pricier.

I hope I've covered everything.

[jcw]

There are a bunch of stories on here about copper in DT's. It's hard to read.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/curemovalfaq2.htm

[Haffs09]

Sk8tr - In an earlier response, you mentioned not to run carbon while in hypo. Why's that?

[JoeRonda]

I might as well throw in my two cents so here goes.
Anthony, I like to soak my fish food in Garlic Xtreme, I feel that the garlic helps boost the fish's immune system. So in addition to everyone elses advice for treating the system, my suggestion targets treating the fish themselves. You might as well give them the best chance to fight off the parasite by strengthening their ability to naturally fight the ich. Good Luck!