cynobacteria problem

[luk81a]

Hi could someone please help me. I have a 470 litre tank and a 100 litre sump/refuge. I have just a cheap return pump that is suppose to push 4500 litres per hour but figured with a head hight of 1.2 metres or so it would be reduced to only 2000L. Im currently running 2x turboflow aqua medic blue 1000 protien skimmers.

I have red cyno growing on the glass of the refuge and on DSB. I can visually see the red slime moving on the deep sand bed so it looks like water flow isnt a problem. Someone suggested a bigger skimmer is needed (Aqua medic blue 3000) as the red slime is feeding on the over production of nutrients. I was also going to upgrade the return pump to an ehiem 5000.

Can someone please help me I have had an up hill battle with nitrate and phosphate since I established the tank 12 months ago. My tank is a mix reef with over 100kg live rock, sailfin tang, naso tang, coral beauty, foxface, Lamark angel, six line wrasse, leopard wrasse, and 3 chromis.

is the red slime from under skimming? or too many nutrients for the coral? Im currently using Red Sea reef energy A and B along with the other Red Sea reef products. Another topic I wanted to address was what is the best supplements to use? Brightwells looks very appealing as well but find their range way too much lol.

[Mmiller40gt]

Increase you water changes and run GFO. A larger skimmer would be great. But I would go with something other than a aquamedic for the price. Why hob if you have a sump?

[nynick]

Used to run planted a few years back and picked up a lot of info on Cyano. It isn't an algae it is a 3 billion year old missing link and it doesn't behave like algae either. Cyano blooms are rarely a product of high nutrients, any number of algae blooms would mop this up. They are there because you have a nutrient imbalance, too much phosphates compared to nitrates. They do not need nitrates at all as they can make their own. Used to dose nitrates in my planted to get rid of them....probably not so good for a reef tank

They are pretty amazing at removing Phosphates so as long as you can keep them out of your display tank with a little siphoning they might actually be a great addition to your sump if your system tends to run high on phosphates.

[luk81a]

Thanks Mmiller40gt might be a stupid question but what is GFO? I icreased water change volume but noticed it was dropping the supplements too much. I have good flow in the refuge cause I can see the cyno waving along the sand bed. Its actually ripping across the DSB.

[downbeach]

What salt mix are you using? What "supplements" are dropping? Cyano, like algae need the same type of conditions to grow, so there are a couple of things that usually contribute to its excessive presence. One is excess nutrients, i.e. nitrates and phosphates, so using your skimmer and the addition of GFO (Granular Ferric Oxide) to further remove phosphate, will go a long way to combat this situation.
Another considerations is your lighting, if you have inadequate lights, or your lights are old and need to be replaced due to spectrum shift. In varying degrees this problem is usually a result of all of the above.

[Buzz1329]

"Increase you water changes and run GFO. A larger skimmer would be great. But I would go with something other than a aquamedic for the price."

Sound advice! GFO = Granular Ferric Oxide. If you're in the U.S., you can order it from Bulk Reef Supply (BRS). Best to use it in a reactor or canister filter. The BRS website has instructions on how best to use it. Good luck!

And BTW, not to highjack the thread, but I frequently recommend BRS for "basic" products and advice because I think they are excellent in that category. But if you need help or service for more expensive hardware purchased from them (in my case, a chiller, a controller, and a pump), my experience has been that they are no better than the tele-clerks at Foster & Smith. Perhaps worse because the F&S clerk can "escalate" the issue internally, while BRS seems to immediately "escalate" the issue by fobbing me off on the manufacturer.

[luk81a]

Downbeach

I was collecting ocean water but now getting through my LFS as he uses collected ocean water too. My NO3 is at 25 mg/l or is it ppm? using sera test kits. PO4 is 1.0 mg/l and have been the same for 2-3 months now. I am not over stocked in the tank either. using Aqua Medic ocean light 2 x 150w and 2 x 54 blue t5's. I replaced the original 12k bulbs with a cheaper chinese 20k bulb. Bought a two little fishes phos reactor to run bio pellets and all they do is clog up in the reactor. Think its rubbish and want to throw it in the bin and start using red seas NO3,PO4 liquid reducer instead. I do 10% water changes weekly now as before was doing 1/3 water changes thinking this would solve my problem. I am using red seas reef care program. Getting tired of my soft corals and they are all lacking colour and looking a bit brown. I havent started using the coral colours yet though. I love this hobby but it is really doing my head in. Only reason I am going Aqua Medic is cause I know the importer in Australia so getting it much cheaper than retail. also I like the easy tuning of the unit with one knob to adjust the neck hight. Any suggestions as to what other skimmers are good? My sump is 780mm long x 370mm wide x360mm high and fuge is 400mm long x 370mm wide x 360mm high. The DSB (deep sand bed) is only 3 1/2 inches deep. Min should be 4-6 inches? could that be a problem? I herd that you need a min of 20% total tank volume as a fuge? Like on this forum I have seen guys with 40g sump and 20g fuge?

How many times should I be turning over the water volume on a 4 x 2 x 2? currently using a chinese 4000L pond pump and says its head hight is 4m? go figure lol. Thats more than the Ehiems. So I suppose by time it gets to the top of the tank it would be lucky to push 3000 or less. was thinking of an Ehiem 5000.

[nynick]

I can tell you what I did when restarting my tank after 2 years as a swamp land and there isn't even a remote chance that you would have more algae than I did

1. Changed half the water and after that 10% per week.

2. Threw away the powerheads (2x1300gph Koralia or something like it) and got 1 mother of a powerhead at 3600gph. Placement and angle is a little tricky in my 90 gal but nothing too bad. If I was to take a stab at one thing that is responsible for more problems in more tanks than anything else, poor circulation would be it. this sucker keeps stuff moving! What is your circulation in the main tank btw, you didn't mention it.

3. Added a pretty strong hob filter to pick up all the crud the new powerhead is blowing around, clean filters often! I would rinse them out several times a day when Cyano was flying around as it breaks up pretty fast.

4 Added a new skimmer, a good one but I am pretty sure this has done the least amount of work. It does pull out a fair bit but nothing compared to what the powerhead/hob filter combo has done.

Took 2 weeks and tank was totally unrecognizable, Cyano, gone; Hair algae, 90% gone;
Bubbel algae, still there.

After 4 weeks now, things have slowed down a lot. Hair algae is slowly going backwards and my bubbles are getting very pale and letting go.

[downbeach]

OK, a couple quick thoughts, I can't speak to the use of NSW since I don't have access to the right stuff. As far as the bio-pellets are concerned, did you remove the sponges in the reactor and replace them with plastic mesh, if not, the sponges will very quickly clog up, and reduce the flow through the reactor? If your pump isn't strong enough to make the pellets tumble, they will clump up. The discharge from the reactor should be near the water intake on your skimmer, so I'd get a skimmer designed for in-sump use.
I don't know what's available to you down under, but if you're using a chemical kit for PO4, you would be better served to get a Hanna checker, and since your using Red Sea products, I'd get one of their new NO3 kits for that.

[luk81a]

I have 2 x Tunze 6045 pushing 4,500 liters... apparently. My mate has 2 x ehiem compact 5000 and only has coraline growth everywhere in the sump. Yes he is flowing a lot more water than I am. I have upgraded my return pluming to go a bigger pump like the ehiem 5000. But only have 2 down pipes in the overflow (weir) at a total of 40mm in width. So I am restricted for room and what size pump I can run. How many times an hour should you turn youre tank over through the fuge?

I have been thinking of ditching the DSB, and macro algae as I dont think I have enough to support my tank volume, and try the marinepure blocks in the sump instead. When I first started out use to run my 3' tank with marine pure balls in the canister and had success. LFS guy said I should upgrade to a better tank and sump system so I did and have had nothing but drama since.

[luk81a]

how can you have water surface adgitation with the tunze pumps blowing on rock and corals? so I have a rock wall with the tunzes on the back wall pushing to the front, down the glass then back into the rock work.Otherwise my soft coral gets hammered around the rocks!!!

[luk81a]

yes replaced the sponge with the screens and runs with a 1200 liter pump. Long story but originally I went the phosban reactor 500 for my tank size. Couldnt get it to tumble if my life depended on it. So I took it back to my LFS guy and we tested out every type of pumps available and couldnt get more than 1200 liters through the narrow 12mm hoses. Even emailed Julian Sprung and showed our findings. He then sent a video back with his running with the same pump.

So I ended up swapping for the 150 reactor and run 500ml of media for 500 liters. I have even modified the bottom by sliding the bottle top off a powerade bottle down the center to create a cone to encourage tumbling. works for a day then glogs up again. However I couldnt cut the screens perfectly to fit as the acrylic cylinder wasnt cemetricle. so every now and then some pellets fall down and get stuck.

[nynick]

Originally Posted by luk81a

how can you have water surface adgitation with the tunze pumps blowing on rock and corals? so I have a rock wall with the tunzes on the back wall pushing to the front, down the glass then back into the rock work.Otherwise my soft coral gets hammered around the rocks!!!

I am just starting up again so maybe someone with more experience wants to chime in here..... I do have a feeling that this sums up your problem and a lot of peoples problems. This practice of having multiple small powerheads.

I saw such a fast improvement from the very simple change I did with replacing my 2 small ones with one stronger. Placed it in a back corner, about half way down, and direct it towards the diagonal front corner but tilted it is such a way that the main water flow hits the surface of the tank around the middle. Not only do I get fantastic surface agitation but the flow is amazing all throughout the rock work with 3600gph (should be roughly 13000 liters). The change from the 2 smaller kept total water flow nearly the same (went up by roughly 600gph) but the difference in the tank is HUGE! The flow over rock and bottom is much stronger and totally even. You wouldn't believe the amount of crap I found out my old powerheads had stored in corners and deadspots. Looked like you had thrown a bomb in there for about an hour (this is why I attached a hob fresh water filter, still running it 4 weeks later but I think I can get rid of it soon.)

I have come to suspect that the same rules apply for reef tank water flow as for pruning a rose bush.........

Looks just right - It is too little.

OMG, too much! - Still too little

OMFG!!!, I have destroyed it!!!! - Now it is enough.

[luk81a]

Ok been reading more and some people say to flow 30-50 times tank volume? that would mean I would need a 15000 lph power head. would I be better off getting
2 x mp40? but they seem to be very noisy.

[nynick]

The difference between 2x7500 lph and 1 x 15000 lph is enormous. I barely upgraded my flow rate but circulation is so much better. Besides, why would you want 2 ugly pieces of plastic in your tank instead of 1?

This practice of multiple small powerheads is very strange. To get any sort of flow going you have to blast them down on your rocks. With a bigger one you can bounce it off the water surface and get a more even and strong flow with better coverage. There are still differences but much less.

My main objective was to remove 1 ugly piece of plastic from the tank, I could not believe the other results it gave. Totally new tank in 2 weeks.

[nynick]

double post....