DIY Sump Idea, new to hobby, need feedback

[cardi09]

I'm starting a 75 gallon reef tank. I've never dealt with saltwater before. I came up with a basic design for a sump. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I figured it would be cheaper to just build it myself vs spending $300 for a pre-built one. They seem simple enough to make. If anyone has any other ideas on a good filter set up let me know

My biggest question is how do i figure out how many gph everything should be. I know the pump shouldn't be more then the overflow box however it does need to account for the distance it travels up. It will be going up about 4.5ft (my stand is 37in tall and my tank 21in tall) That being said, how do i even determine what gph to start with? Same with skimmer, what size should i do?
I've heard everything form 3-5x to 10x tank size.

I attached a picture of a basic design i came up with for the sump. The red on each line is a ball valve so i can stop flow as needed to clean, etc.

[MrG]

If you go to the Reef Central home page (not the forums, but the actual website) there are links for calculators on the left side of the page. You can use these to do all the math and get an idea of what your plumbing should look like. For example, pick a return pump and then enter what the plumbing will be and it will spit back a true GPH, then use the GPH to figure out overflow design.

I didn't really do that when I set up my tank. I had a return pump on hand already, so just built everything but put gate valves (instead of ball valves) on the drain and return lines so that I could precisely match in and out flows. Maybe not the best way, but it works.

[NanoReefWanabe]

first off, welcome to the hobby...

second: you should look at either a herbie drain system or a bean drain system, which ever is easier to implement, if you are not afraid to drill holes in your tank then certainly do a bean system...UNLESS you are using one of these drain systems (bean or herbie) you SHOULD NOT use a ball or gate valve on your drain line at all...restricting the return is fine though in any case.

third: your sump will work, but it really should have the return section in the middle with your fuge being on the end...reason being is you can control the flow through your fuge better, by using a "T" off your return line to feed it as opposed to water rushing over the baffles.

fourth: your pump will depend on the drain system you implement...if you use a regular reef ready tank as is, you will likely only be able to quietly drain about 3-400gph...if you use a bean or herbie you will be able to move considerably more water...as for return pump...personally i would look at something in the neighbourhood of a mag 9.5 or an eheim 1262 for an internal pump...i dont know any external pumps though ( i have no experience with them)

skimmer: i would look at a reef octopus or bubble magus in the 200-250gallon range...both are relatively inexpensive and work really well.

[Daimyo68]

+1 on the BeanAnimal system if you have some DIY skills.

+1 on the sump design being Drain/Skimmer | Return | Fuge

+1 on the Bubble Magus skimmer, I am currently running the NAC6 and have had a fish load of 11 in my 75g without issue.

If you decide on the BeanAnimal system, look in my 75g album here on RC. Everything you need is there. If you need dimensions, PM me and I will send them along to you.

[cardi09]

The Bean system requires a drilled tank correct? I'm hesitant to drill the tank as i bought it used and I don't want to risk it cracking when its drilled and then i'm out a tank and good amount of money.
Does the flow really matter for the fuge area? Was reading another thread, they also seem decided on skimmer|fuge|return:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2219799

I was looking at this skimmer if I can get it for preferably under 150, any opinions on this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230862274681...=p5197.c0.m619

Daimyo68, your pictures were really helpful! I might just PM you when i understand this a little more and get further along.

OK so if i keep my current design and take the ball valve off the overflow side would that setup work? Also, should I make the piping for the return pump split in the middle and go to each end of the tank? I plan on having a U-tube with directional return on the end. http://www.marinedepot.com/U_Tube_wi...FT0001-vi.html

[cardi09]

Another question with the setup with fuge on the end, doesn't that defeat the purpose? I thought the whole point of the fuge with LR is to act as a filter before being returned back into the tank?

I Know everyone keeps saying stay away from wet/dry filters but if I put LR in where the bioballs go, wouldn't that in turn make it just like a sump? If so, would that be just as good an option as building the sump? I found these:
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/3258917980.html
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/for/3294127538.html
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/3308414643.html
http://cnj.craigslist.org/hsh/3235782430.html

more skimmers:
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/for/3291778903.html
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/f...285.html(heard coral life isn't that good, any reviews?)

[Hzuiel]

The aquarium is by far the least of your expenses in marine aquariums. If you're concerned about breaking your tank you can usually find a local fish store with somebody who drills holes for you. Mine drilled me a hole for 25 bucks, which is worth not busting a tank i think.

If you swap out the contents of a canister or wet/dry, yes it changes their effectiveness. I was actually told by an experienced marine aquarist to get a canister if i can, because it's a convenient place to add filtration media like chemipure or purigen, and throw some live rock in. Essentially it would give me more room in my sump for the refugium.

Also the refugium at the end concept if i understand it right, is that you have a cheap $8 harbor freight pump in the compartment with your main sump pump, and it slowly pumps water over to your refugium, which spills back into that compartment, so it's roughly the same process, except some water bypasses the refugium, but the point of a refugium, is to provide a nice quiet environment for pods, planketon and other things to grow, and for nitrates to be processed by the algae, which apparently requires more time and less movement of water.

[NanoReefWanabe]

the whole point of a refugium is to create a "refuge" for pods and critters to thrive without predation...coincidentally growing algae for them to play in also serves the additional purpose of nutrient export (provided you are regularly pruning and removing algae)

live rock or rubble serves no purpose in a sump/refugium other then collecting detritus...

you want relatively scrubbed water going into your fuge, not poop laden water that will be coming out of your overflow...

drilling a used tank is much better then drilling a new one...if you crack a used one you dont feel that bad about it, crack a brand spankin new one and certainly feel bad..

[Daimyo68]

I've drilled tanks well over 10 years old and never had an issue.

The fuge on the end, as mentioned is supplied with "clean" water, since it will go through a filter sock/filter pad, and get skimmed before entering the fuge. There are pages upon pages with debates over this subject, it comes down to personal preference.

As for the skimmer, not a bad deal, bet there any better out there on the web, and here on RC's For Sale forums.

[cardi09]

Ok so i redid the set up design for the sump, does this look better?



Next question, how frequently do i need to mess with the sump, the door on my stand is pretty small i think and doesn't give me much room to work. The entire back of my stand is open but i can't get back there once tank is filled and in place.

[pmangels17]

You could fill the fuge with a line off of the return pump as well, so that all your overflowed water goes to the skimmer.

[cardi09]

Originally Posted by pmangels17

You could fill the fuge with a line off of the return pump as well, so that all your overflowed water goes to the skimmer.

yea thought of that after i made the picture. I did hear though that the unskimmed water is better for the fuge

[cardi09]

Should I use glass or acrylic for the baffles?

[NanoReefWanabe]

Originally Posted by cardi09

yea thought of that after i made the picture. I did hear though that the unskimmed water is better for the fuge

it may or may not be better i have no idea how much "plant food" is caught up in skimmed or unskimmed water...i do know that dumping unfiltered water unto your fuge requires 10X more maintenance as detritus etc will accumulate in the fuge and get caught in the cheato and kill it...(much the same as dumping a bag of fertilizer on your lawn would kill it, no light and too many nutrients) and i also know that my cheato has always grown perfectly fine using skimmed water.

Originally Posted by cardi09

Should I use glass or acrylic for the baffles?

if your sump is glass use glass if it is acrylic use acrylic...

also your return area in the last pic need not be so big, use an ATO and make the fuge considerably bigger instead

[cardi09]

Originally Posted by NanoReefWanabe

it may or may not be better i have no idea how much "plant food" is caught up in skimmed or unskimmed water...i do know that dumping unfiltered water unto your fuge requires 10X more maintenance as detritus etc will accumulate in the fuge and get caught in the cheato and kill it...(much the same as dumping a bag of fertilizer on your lawn would kill it, no light and too many nutrients) and i also know that my cheato has always grown perfectly fine using skimmed water.



if your sump is glass use glass if it is acrylic use acrylic...

also your return area in the last pic need not be so big, use an ATO and make the fuge considerably bigger instead

Good point with the more maintenance required. I will switch it around.
As for my return area being so big, I prefer to have the return bigger to account for evaporation so i don't need to fill it up as frequently

[Aqua Joe]

Originally Posted by cardi09

Good point with the more maintenance required. I will switch it around.
As for my return area being so big, I prefer to have the return bigger to account for evaporation so i don't need to fill it up as frequently

Hence the use of an auto top off system. Yeah you can fit more water in a larger return area but you would also have to keep the water level higher since a lot of that water will end up below the pump's intake. If your return section is narrower your water level will be higher over the intake of the pump. Easiest way to not have to deal with the evap'd water is to use an auto top off. I'd say go w/ a bigger fuge.

[sparky45]

Id make you're skimmer easy to get to as you will need to empty your cup often.

[matt9190]

Originally Posted by sparky45

Id make you're skimmer easy to get to as you will need to empty your cup often.

+1, do the same for all appliances that you need to check frequently

[cardi09]

thanks for the replies guys! very helpful!

I've decided to wait on adding a sump. I know it would make water changes,mixing chemicals, evaporation, etc much more easier but i just don't have the money to spend on everything it requires since it is so much (overflow, return pump, another tank, glass baffles, light, etc.)
So instead i will spend a little extra money on a good skimmer that is both HOB and in sump and just use that for now. My LR will provide enough filtration, plus a good skimmer. Then down the road I can start getting a sump together.

I've heard a lot of good for the reef ocotpus skimmer so that is my goal of what to get. I'm only finding either HOB or sump, not one that is both, do they make one that is for both??
Has anyone heard anything about the Eshopps skimmer?

I set my tank up today in my room, its a monster! can't wait to get it filled and start adding live rock

[cardi09]

quick question, can i start filling the tank with saltwater, LR, and sand before i get my skimmer? I won't add any fish until i have a skimmer, but i'd like to start filling the tank while i search for a good skimmer.
if i can, how do i start? Can i do the water, LR, and sand all at the same time?

[Denzil]

Originally Posted by cardi09

quick question, can i start filling the tank with saltwater, LR, and sand before i get my skimmer? I won't add any fish until i have a skimmer, but i'd like to start filling the tank while i search for a good skimmer.
if i can, how do i start? Can i do the water, LR, and sand all at the same time?

You should be able to but you'll have to do larger and/or more often water changes if you have livestock. Whatever you do, you just have to make sure that the bacteria is being fed.

[sp0k]

yea you should be fine doing that

[karimwassef]

How about if the sump is made of plywood/fiberglass?

[2hands]

Originally Posted by cardi09

thanks for the replies guys! very helpful!

I've decided to wait on adding a sump. I know it would make water changes,mixing chemicals, evaporation, etc much more easier but i just don't have the money to spend on everything it requires since it is so much (overflow, return pump, another tank, glass baffles, light, etc.)
So instead i will spend a little extra money on a good skimmer that is both HOB and in sump and just use that for now. My LR will provide enough filtration, plus a good skimmer. Then down the road I can start getting a sump together.

You will most likely ignore this advice since you have already made up your mind... But you should do it once and do it right! Have an overflow, Herbie or Beananimal design If you want I quiet. Have a sump. You will then be looking at reactors for your sump something you probably have not thought of yet. Carbon pellets, GFO, GAC, Kalk, calcium reactor, Two part additive addition, ozone. The list goes on and on. A Refugium is good you may want an ATS. A sump allows you to do any of these with minor changes. It is all very complex and expensive. The most cost effective thing you can do is, only do things once right the first time and not constantly upgrading.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Aqua Joe

Hence the use of an auto top off system. Yeah you can fit more water in a larger return area but you would also have to keep the water level higher since a lot of that water will end up below the pump's intake. If your return section is narrower your water level will be higher over the intake of the pump. Easiest way to not have to deal with the evap'd water is to use an auto top off. I'd say go w/ a bigger fuge.

Ok, now something is not quite right with the logic here. Let's say I have a return section that is 6" long, by 12" wide, and the pump barely fits in. We have 6" of water sitting over the pump. Over a set period of time, the water evaporates, and the pump becomes uncovered--because your ATO died: You have a burned out pump, everything in the tank dies.

Now we take that return section, and make it 12" long, by 12" wide. We still have 6" of water sitting over the pump. However, I have doubled the volume of water sitting over the pump, and it will take twice as long for the water to evaporate, burn out your pump and kill all your fish--after your ATO dies.

It becomes very clear, that the larger the return section, the more water will be over the pump--without raising the level of the water.

It also becomes clear what is more important. You can run a system without a "fuge," but you cannot run a system without a pump........

ATO systems are active electro/mechanical systems, they can, do, and at some point will fail. It needs to be expected, and planned for. Passive fail safes provide us with a fool proof back up, or in this case--at least some time to discover the failure, and remedy it--before you lose your pump.

There are two passive fail safes involved with the sump. The first is protection for the pump, e.g. sufficient volume in the return section for the system to run for several days, without the pump running dry--whether or not you have an ATO system or not. The second is sufficient extra space for ALL power out drain down, irregardless of any active fail safe used i.e. anti siphon holes/check valves. Both of these fail safes take precedence over the size of the fuge.

It then becomes clear that in some sizes of sumps, it is absolutely impractical to consider having a "fuge" in the sump.