Ich..?

Mergo · 11/29/2012, 06:47 PM

My black clown I got about 10 days ago I noticed last night has a bunch of dots on him... Is it Ich? I have other fish so if it is, I wanna get him to the store ASAP.

Empty Bottles · 11/29/2012, 08:07 PM

IMO it could be ich, but kinda looks like velvet.

Mergo · 11/29/2012, 08:10 PM

Never heard of that, or not much about it anyway. Would velvet be deadly, or contagious?

ArrowCrab · 11/29/2012, 08:30 PM

I'm not versed in any of the diseases so I can't really say well what it looks like. But if it is velvet it needs to be dealt with ASAP; read up on the thread in the disease forum:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2119086

bnumair · 11/29/2012, 08:35 PM

velvet is hard to treat and most fish dont survive. pic is not clear for a positive id.

blanden.adam · 11/29/2012, 08:44 PM

Yes, velvet is deadly and contagious, even moreso than Ich, as with velvet a lot of the time by the time you get cutaneous symptoms (dots on the skin), it's too late and the fish is doomed. However, to me this looks more like Ich. Velvet typically starts at the gills and moves outward, whereas Ich usually starts on the fins and moves in. I haven't watched the disease progress, but it looks more prominent at the fins, but it really could be either.

The good news is, proper ID really isn't necessary in this case, as whether it's ich or velvet, the treatment is the same, and based on the state of the fish you need to act fast.

Set up a small hospital tank outside your current tank and transfer all of your fish that are susceptible to this disease. Treat them with a copper-based medication as per the instructions (please use a copper test kit to maintain appropriate levels) and be sure to religiously monitor water quality and change the water, as the filtration you use on the hospital tank will likely be subpar (i'm assuming you don't have an active bio-filter ready to go, in the future you should probly have an active sponge filter or 2 running on your DT for emergencies). Bringing him back to the store likely won't solve your problem. The parasite is in your tank now, so now you've got to fix it or your other fish can still get infected.

I need to be clear when I say there are many "cures" marketed that say they can be used in the DT, but IMO they are pretty much all snake oil at this point. No one has been able to produce a product as consistently effective as copper. When you are done, be sure to discard the "filter"

You need to let your display tank tank lie fallow for a while so the ich/velvet in the water can die out without a fish host. This fallow period should be at least 30 days, but some people recommend as long as 3 months. It may seem excessive, but if you don't then you will be introducing fish back into a DT that still has active parasites in it, and will be ready to re-infect and go crazy on all of your nice, parasite free fish.

Now for the reprimand. This is just another example of why you should quarantine every single piece of livestock that comes into your system. It's so much easier to solve a problem when a piece of something, whether it's a fish, coral, rock, or invertebrate, in an isolated tank by itself than trying to fix the problem after it has contaminated your entire DT. I don't care where it came from, your LFS, an online vender, your best friend, or even your own mother's tank, if its wet, the best practice is to quarantine it.

Take this fish for example. It would have developed the disease in quarantine, you'd transfer it over to a small hospital tank, treat it with copper as per the instructions, observe for 30 days, and into the tank he'd go, parasite free, de-stressed, fattened up and ready to compete for territory and food, and no need to uproot the rest of your fish.

At any rate, I'm sorry this happened to you, and wish you luck with your fish. I've made mistakes in this hobby, as has everybody, but please learn from it and quarantine, quarantine, quarantine.

Mergo · 11/29/2012, 10:03 PM

Alright thanks, I actually have a 10g upstairs setup as a QT, but to be honest, I rarely quarantine anything anymore since I never had a problem with my other tanks... But thanks. I'll get him out and up there as soon as I'm up tomorrow. The QT has an established sponge filter on it, too. Not looking forward to this since I've never had a diseased tank. I guess it's all part of the learning process and since I'm only a year into saltwater, it's one of those things that sadly probably many people face. Thanks again..

MrTuskfish · 11/30/2012, 08:38 AM

If the skin is peeling or sloughing off, this may also be brooklynella.Brook is common in clowns and very deadly and contagious. If you don't start to use a QT on all new fish, parasites will ruin the hobby for you. I'd re-post this in the disease section and read the stickies on diseases/ parasites there.

Mergo · 11/30/2012, 02:45 PM

So the black clown died while I was at school.... my other clown has a couple dots, I'm moving him to the 10g, but I'm not sure what to do with my yellow tang. I know the water is probably "poisoned" by now, so am I able to put the tang in the 10g also? I'm headed to the fish store soon to get copper treatment, also. Disappointed though, by far my favorite fish and the most expensive, too..

sponger0 · 11/30/2012, 03:53 PM

And this is why it is recommended to quarantine. You have learned a hard lesson my friend. Just cause you dont get it before doesnt mean it wont happen again.

Stuff like velvet can wipe out your tank easily. Usually by the time you notice it, its already too late.

Cymonous · 11/30/2012, 03:57 PM

I got lucky with my first set of fish (pair of clowns). I moved and lost a clown. My new fish are in a quarantine because I don't want to lose anymore fish.

Mergo · 11/30/2012, 04:09 PM

Yeah I learned the hard way, and will always take the precaution now. The guy at the store said it was ich and they've had 4 other clowns from that shipment die (including a pair of platinums, ouch) so when I get my tank all cleared in the next few weeks or month, they're gonna give me a black clown for free since it was a bad shipment I guess. Obviously I'll quarantine that guy haha.

sponger0 · 11/30/2012, 04:23 PM

Well thats good they are willing to give you a new fish. I quarantine everything. I dont care who it comes from whether it is from the store or a local reef club member

Mergo · 11/30/2012, 04:45 PM

Yeah I really should've been.. It really sucks, and easily could've been avoided. I'm upset with myself especially since I setup the 10g just for a QT, but I got excited and made a bad decision when I bought the fish.

ACBlinky · 11/30/2012, 07:55 PM

Very, VERY few people in this hobby who can say they've never done something silly. There are threads dedicated to mistakes we've all made -- buying shoddy equipment because it seemed like a good deal, bringing home a fish or coral that's totally unsuitable for our tank, not quarantining something because we were impatient. We have ALL been there.

I'm sorry you lost the clown, and glad to hear your LFS has such decent customer service and they're willing to replace it. Now... repeat after me. I will quarantine all my fish from this day forward

Mergo · 12/01/2012, 10:17 AM

I will quarantine all my fish from this day forward

Yeah makes me feel a little better, thank you.

sponger0 · 12/01/2012, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergo

I will quarantine all my fish from this day forward

Yeah makes me feel a little better, thank you.

Good deal. Alot of people dont wanna bother quarantining....and trust me I understand. I didnt want to in the beginning either and was afraid of killing my fish with copper. But after what I had went through with my first few fish, its so much easier than stressing on what fish is dying, or did my new fish carry anything, is it going to kill my other fish and blah blah blah blah.

People may have luck, but when your luck runs out and you have a break out of ich on 20 fish....not so much fun lol

11/29/2012, 08:30 PM	#4
ArrowCrab Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 166	I'm not versed in any of the diseases so I can't really say well what it looks like. But if it is velvet it needs to be dealt with ASAP; read up on the thread in the disease forum: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2119086 __________________ No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.

11/29/2012, 08:35 PM	#5
bnumair Dr. Reef at ur service Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA Posts: 7,751 Blog Entries: 15	velvet is hard to treat and most fish dont survive. pic is not clear for a positive id. __________________ Water Quality: NO3 0,Phos 0,Cal 440,Alk 7.5,Mag 1300 "Reef Fast, You Crash, Reef Slow, You Pass" Mike's Reef 3:16 Current Tank Info: 350g DT,95g sump, 50g Frag tank, 4800gph return 4x Sea swirls. 6x AI Vega Color. 200# Pukani rock, dual recirculating skimmer, Biopellet, GFO Carbon rx's, Cal rx. Closed loop. 1.5hp chiller, genesis renew. Apex & RKE

11/30/2012, 08:38 AM	#8
MrTuskfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Wild Blue Yonder Posts: 8,887	If the skin is peeling or sloughing off, this may also be brooklynella.Brook is common in clowns and very deadly and contagious. If you don't start to use a QT on all new fish, parasites will ruin the hobby for you. I'd re-post this in the disease section and read the stickies on diseases/ parasites there. __________________ If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef

11/30/2012, 03:57 PM	#11
Cymonous My Clown Attacks Me Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,105	I got lucky with my first set of fish (pair of clowns). I moved and lost a clown. My new fish are in a quarantine because I don't want to lose anymore fish. __________________ 100 Gallon Long with 20L sump 10 Gallon Office Tank Current Tank Info: 2 False Percula Clowns, One Spot Foxface, Diamond Watchman Goby, Yellow Tail Damsel, Engineer Goby

11/30/2012, 07:55 PM	#15
ACBlinky Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Peterborough, ON, Canada Posts: 4,954 Blog Entries: 20	Very, VERY few people in this hobby who can say they've never done something silly. There are threads dedicated to mistakes we've all made -- buying shoddy equipment because it seemed like a good deal, bringing home a fish or coral that's totally unsuitable for our tank, not quarantining something because we were impatient. We have ALL been there. I'm sorry you lost the clown, and glad to hear your LFS has such decent customer service and they're willing to replace it. Now... repeat after me. I will quarantine all my fish from this day forward __________________ "The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears, or the sea." - Isak Dinesen Current Tank Info: 150g mixed reef, 30g sump/refugium, LED lighting, 100lbs LR, coral beauty, flame angel, blue & yellow tangs, gobies, damsels, 6-line wrasse, lawnmower blenny, dottyback, clown pair, rabbitfish, shrimp, crabs, CUC.

11/29/2012, 08:07 PM	#2
Empty Bottles Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 291	IMO it could be ich, but kinda looks like velvet.

11/29/2012, 08:10 PM	#3
Mergo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 147	Never heard of that, or not much about it anyway. Would velvet be deadly, or contagious?

11/29/2012, 08:44 PM	#6
blanden.adam Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Manlius, NY Posts: 1,666	Yes, velvet is deadly and contagious, even moreso than Ich, as with velvet a lot of the time by the time you get cutaneous symptoms (dots on the skin), it's too late and the fish is doomed. However, to me this looks more like Ich. Velvet typically starts at the gills and moves outward, whereas Ich usually starts on the fins and moves in. I haven't watched the disease progress, but it looks more prominent at the fins, but it really could be either. The good news is, proper ID really isn't necessary in this case, as whether it's ich or velvet, the treatment is the same, and based on the state of the fish you need to act fast. Set up a small hospital tank outside your current tank and transfer all of your fish that are susceptible to this disease. Treat them with a copper-based medication as per the instructions (please use a copper test kit to maintain appropriate levels) and be sure to religiously monitor water quality and change the water, as the filtration you use on the hospital tank will likely be subpar (i'm assuming you don't have an active bio-filter ready to go, in the future you should probly have an active sponge filter or 2 running on your DT for emergencies). Bringing him back to the store likely won't solve your problem. The parasite is in your tank now, so now you've got to fix it or your other fish can still get infected. I need to be clear when I say there are many "cures" marketed that say they can be used in the DT, but IMO they are pretty much all snake oil at this point. No one has been able to produce a product as consistently effective as copper. When you are done, be sure to discard the "filter" You need to let your display tank tank lie fallow for a while so the ich/velvet in the water can die out without a fish host. This fallow period should be at least 30 days, but some people recommend as long as 3 months. It may seem excessive, but if you don't then you will be introducing fish back into a DT that still has active parasites in it, and will be ready to re-infect and go crazy on all of your nice, parasite free fish. Now for the reprimand. This is just another example of why you should quarantine every single piece of livestock that comes into your system. It's so much easier to solve a problem when a piece of something, whether it's a fish, coral, rock, or invertebrate, in an isolated tank by itself than trying to fix the problem after it has contaminated your entire DT. I don't care where it came from, your LFS, an online vender, your best friend, or even your own mother's tank, if its wet, the best practice is to quarantine it. Take this fish for example. It would have developed the disease in quarantine, you'd transfer it over to a small hospital tank, treat it with copper as per the instructions, observe for 30 days, and into the tank he'd go, parasite free, de-stressed, fattened up and ready to compete for territory and food, and no need to uproot the rest of your fish. At any rate, I'm sorry this happened to you, and wish you luck with your fish. I've made mistakes in this hobby, as has everybody, but please learn from it and quarantine, quarantine, quarantine.

11/29/2012, 10:03 PM	#7
Mergo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 147	Alright thanks, I actually have a 10g upstairs setup as a QT, but to be honest, I rarely quarantine anything anymore since I never had a problem with my other tanks... But thanks. I'll get him out and up there as soon as I'm up tomorrow. The QT has an established sponge filter on it, too. Not looking forward to this since I've never had a diseased tank. I guess it's all part of the learning process and since I'm only a year into saltwater, it's one of those things that sadly probably many people face. Thanks again..

11/30/2012, 02:45 PM	#9
Mergo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 147	So the black clown died while I was at school.... my other clown has a couple dots, I'm moving him to the 10g, but I'm not sure what to do with my yellow tang. I know the water is probably "poisoned" by now, so am I able to put the tang in the 10g also? I'm headed to the fish store soon to get copper treatment, also. Disappointed though, by far my favorite fish and the most expensive, too..

11/30/2012, 03:53 PM	#10
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	And this is why it is recommended to quarantine. You have learned a hard lesson my friend. Just cause you dont get it before doesnt mean it wont happen again. Stuff like velvet can wipe out your tank easily. Usually by the time you notice it, its already too late.

11/30/2012, 04:09 PM	#12
Mergo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 147	Yeah I learned the hard way, and will always take the precaution now. The guy at the store said it was ich and they've had 4 other clowns from that shipment die (including a pair of platinums, ouch) so when I get my tank all cleared in the next few weeks or month, they're gonna give me a black clown for free since it was a bad shipment I guess. Obviously I'll quarantine that guy haha.

11/30/2012, 04:23 PM	#13
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	Well thats good they are willing to give you a new fish. I quarantine everything. I dont care who it comes from whether it is from the store or a local reef club member

11/30/2012, 04:45 PM	#14
Mergo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 147	Yeah I really should've been.. It really sucks, and easily could've been avoided. I'm upset with myself especially since I setup the 10g just for a QT, but I got excited and made a bad decision when I bought the fish.

12/01/2012, 10:17 AM	#16
Mergo Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 147	I will quarantine all my fish from this day forward Yeah makes me feel a little better, thank you.