Cost Estimate to Start 65G Reef

[samba_dad]

I really want to get into reefing again (after a 10 year hiatus), and have spent the last 2 months learning as much as I can from the forum about the current technology & approaches. After lots of research, I have started to put together a cost estimate for all the equipment that I think I need. I don't want to skimp, but I don't want to go too crazy either. Unfortunately, after putting together my cost estimate, I am in a bit of sticker shock. I am looking at ~$5,500 to setup a 65G tank. Does this seem high to anyone or does that seem about the right cost? If you were going to try to reduce cost, what would you do differently?

Here is my cost breakdown...
Aqueon 65G Tank & R&J Stand w/ Canopy - $900
Lighting (2x AI Hydra 26) - $800
Powerheads (2x Vortech MP10WES) - $570
RO/DI w/ Shutoff, TDS - $250
Protein Skimmer (Vertex Omega 150) - $400
Pump & Sump (Aqueon ProFlex Model 4 & Eheim 1260) - $400
Carbon & PhosBan Reactors w/ pumps - $150
Ca, Alk & PO4 Dosing - $160
Apex Controller - Float Switch & Extra Probe - $700
Fish QT & Invert QT - $400
Red Sea Test Kits & Refractometer - $250
Heaters - $150
Live Rock & Live Sand - $450

Thanks!

[Jetlinkin]

The tank cost seems a little high to me. I was quoted that same price for a 180g.

Others stuff seems right in line. You can get away with out the dosing at first. Your water changes should keep up with a new tank for a while.

My personal preference for lighting, I went with the Radion G3 pro's. I know they are more, but I am more than pleased so far.

I hear ya on the sticker shock, but you look to be building a great system that you will enjoy for many years. When you do it right in the beginning, you will not find yourself buying twice. I did that for years before I learned to do the research first.

[Whistl3r]

I just finished building out a new upgrade and your list seems in line. The thing is you don't need all the bells and whistles at once. You can start with the basics and work your way into the extras like Apex and dosing. You can also start with clean dry rock as opposed to live rock, it will only cost you about $2 a pound and you don't roll the dice with hitchhikers. The QT tanks can be setup very cheap as well, I setup a 20 long for about $60.

[Stolireef]

Originally Posted by samba_dad

I really want to get into reefing again (after a 10 year hiatus), and have spent the last 2 months learning as much as I can from the forum about the current technology & approaches. After lots of research, I have started to put together a cost estimate for all the equipment that I think I need. I don't want to skimp, but I don't want to go too crazy either. Unfortunately, after putting together my cost estimate, I am in a bit of sticker shock. I am looking at ~$5,500 to setup a 65G tank. Does this seem high to anyone or does that seem about the right cost? If you were going to try to reduce cost, what would you do differently?

Here is my cost breakdown...
Aqueon 65G Tank & R&J Stand w/ Canopy - $900
Lighting (2x AI Hydra 26) - $800
Powerheads (2x Vortech MP10WES) - $570
RO/DI w/ Shutoff, TDS - $250
Protein Skimmer (Vertex Omega 150) - $400
Pump & Sump (Aqueon ProFlex Model 4 & Eheim 1260) - $400
Carbon & PhosBan Reactors w/ pumps - $150
Ca, Alk & PO4 Dosing - $160
Apex Controller - Float Switch & Extra Probe - $700
Fish QT & Invert QT - $400
Red Sea Test Kits & Refractometer - $250
Heaters - $150
Live Rock & Live Sand - $450

Thanks!

Actually, not only aren't you skimping, you are basically going top of the line with every piece of equipment. By way of example, you can get excellent tunze pumps that will link with your apex for less than half of what the MP10's will cost. Protien skimmer is similarly high end. Look at Reef Octopus. You can set up a solid QT for about $50. Don't bother with reactors. You probably won't even need them if you practice reasonably good husbandry. Go with dry rock and you cut that in half as well.

Nothing in your proposed setup is bad. In fact, everything is awesome but I believe over the top. You should easily be able to cut the price in half and still get the same results.

[Deep Reef]

Watch the forums unless you have to have new you can pick up tank/ stand for half your projected cost

[lonzoencho]

Heaters, Power heads, QT, and Skimmer are all places you could save money without skimping on quality. Also you could make your own sump. I

[wild1]

Don't know if this applies to you but right now here in Florida Petco is having their $ 1.00 a gallon sale on tanks. Probably not drilled tho

[Aquat]

Originally Posted by wild1

Don't know if this applies to you but right now here in Florida Petco is having their $ 1.00 a gallon sale on tanks. Probably not drilled tho

It only goes up to a 55g

[Crooked Reef]

Originally Posted by samba_dad

Here is my cost breakdown...
Aqueon 65G Tank & R&J Stand w/ Canopy - $900
Lighting (2x AI Hydra 26) - $800
Are you specifically wanting LED? If not you can get an ATI 4 bulb t-5 fixture with excellent quality ATI bulbs for around $500
Powerheads (2x Vortech MP10WES) - $570
Look at tunze, jabao, and koralia. You can save at least half of that.
RO/DI w/ Shutoff, TDS - $250
Shop around. You can save around $100
Protein Skimmer (Vertex Omega 150) - $400
Reef octopus. $280
Pump & Sump (Aqueon ProFlex Model 4 & Eheim 1260) - $400
You can make your own sump and save $150 to $200 easy
Carbon & PhosBan Reactors w/ pumps - $150
You wont need these right away if even at all
Ca, Alk & PO4 Dosing - $160
Until you are running a heavily dominated SPS system your normal water changes will suffice for this. You can also make your own kalk water and use pickling lime for calcium. You are looking at around $20. Not sure why you would want to dose PO4 and use a phosban reactor. Why add phosphate and then put a reactor to remove it?
Apex Controller - Float Switch & Extra Probe - $700
Nice to have but completely unnecessary, especially at first. I would skip this until you can run the tank without one completely on your own. If you rely on this equipment from the get go you may not know what to do if it fails, and they do fail sometimes.
Fish QT & Invert QT - $400
Way over estimated this one. $100 tops.
Red Sea Test Kits & Refractometer - $250
Heaters - $150
Two titanium heaters. $30 to $40 each. $80 total.
Live Rock & Live Sand - $450
55 lbs dry rock $110, 10 lbs quality live rock $50, $80 for sand tops. $240 total.

Thanks!

That just saved you $2,525.00 Also look at craigslist and lfs for used tanks. I got my 65 with 30 sump, stand, canopy for around $600 used and still was in excellent condition.

[EllisJuan]

Sounds similar to my tank, but I did not spring for the Vortechs. Really makes me cringe when I see it all listed out like that. It did not seem like I was spending that much as I upgraded and pieced it together over the years.

[samba_dad]

Thanks everyone for the comments/feedback. It was very helpful! If someone asks you what is the value of the forum, well it saved me $835 in the last 24 hrs. I am going to go item-by-item on what I discovered based upon everyone's feedback.

Protein Skimming
Total volume of tank & sump is ~95 Gallons. It appeared that the ratings on the protein skimmer were rated for relatively light loads. So, my intent is to buy something that I won't have to upgrade after stocking & growing out my tank. Therefore, I am leaning toward a skimmer rated for 100 Gallons with a heavy stocking load from a well-known, reputable and popular brand. In my research, Reef Octopus and Vertex are 2 companies that would satisfy all of the above. Below are the cost comparison and rating comparison from BRS.

=> Original Selected Protein Skimmer - Vertex Omega 150 - $400 (36 reviews/4.5 stars)
=> New Protein Skimmer - Reef Octopus NWB150 6" Pinwheel In Sump Protein Skimmer - $225 (76 reviews/5 stars)
** Protein Skimmer Savings $175 **

Powerheads
I am looking for something controllable - ultimately with the Apex. I am looking for max flow of at least 30X tank volume. For a 65G that would be around 1,950 GPH. According to the Apex site, the only Tunze pumps that are controllable are the Tunze Turbelle 6105, 6155, 6255 with a special cable required. I am also looking for multiple powerheads and not just a single with 30X flow.

=>Original Selected Powerhead - 2x VorTech MP10 WES (200-1,575 GPH) - $285 (58 reviews/4.5 stars)
=>Option 1 - Tunze Turbelle 6105 (700-3,400 GPH) - $348 (20 reviews/5 stars) - Costs more than MP10 and single pump
=>Option 2 - a) Hydor Koralia 12V Controllable 1,550 GPH Powerheads - $99 (1 review/5 stars), b) Apex Variable Speed Pump Control Module - $99
** Powerhead Savings $270 **

Comments: I am not entirely sure the Hydor Koralia will work with the Apex Variable Speed Pump Control (VDM), but suspect they would. The VDM output is 0-10V and the Hydor Koralia is a 12V DC pump. Therefore, I am most likely not getting the full 1,550 GPH flow. Assuming it is linear, then I should be able to get 10/12 of the total volume or 1,292 GPH. This amount of flow would still satisfy the 30X flow requirement. In addition, these pumps would require the Apex VDM module which costs $99.

RO/DI
For me, the RO/DI is like the genesis to everything I want to do with the reef. To be honest, having done tap water and RO-only water in the past, I simply would not get back into reefing without the RO/DI. The algae problems just never seemed to end without the RO/DI, and I spent a lot of time being embarrassed of my tank due to algae until I discovered the RO/DI. I just don't see anyway to save money on this configuration.

=> Original Selected Configuration-BRS 4 Stage Plus RO/DI System (includes pressure gauge, Dual TDS, flush kit) - 75 GPD - $170, Auto Shut Off Kit - $25, Dual Deionization Canister - $60
=>No better options identified
** RO/DI Savings $0 **

Live Rock & Live Sand
The heart of my considerations here involve deep sand bed or not. Call me paranoid, but I do tend to be on the extreme side of algae control. Unsuccessful algae control is why I left the reef hobby about 10 years ago. So, nitrate and phosphate control are on the top of my list (see RO/DI comments above). There is a great forum link by the way on DSB - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1652103. With DSB it seems you are looking at Ocean Direct Live sand instead of just the Arag-Alive! Brand live sand. For my tank, 1" of sand is 26 lbs of sand. So, my thoughts were to run 3" of Ocean Direct Oolite sand followed by 2" of Original Grade Ocean Direct Live Reef Sand on top of it.

=>Original Rock & Sand: a) 2x 40lb Oolite Ocean Direct Live Reef Sand - $130, b) 3x 20lb Original Grade Ocean Direct Live Reef - $100, c) 50 lbs of AquaMaxx Dry Reef Rock - $130 (marinedepot.com), d) 10 lbs of Real Reef Live Rock - $80
=> New Rock & Sand: a) Same substrate, b) Found 60 lbs of dried live rock for $50 on Craig's List
** Rock & Sand Savings $80 **

Ca, Alk & PO4 Dosing
This is a standard 2-part dosing approach along with the Red Sea NO3:PO4-X Nitrate & Phosphate Reducer. A previous post was asking why I was dosing phosphate and taking it out with the reactor. I have no intention of dosing phosphate - I can't figure out why someone would do that due to the algae implications. Definitely, I can defer the Ca & Alk cost until I start getting more coral that will consume the Ca & Alk. However, on the NO3:PO4-X Nitrate & Phosphate Reducer it seems I need to be dosing this early on and consistently. I will also need the associated test kits, because I really don't want to dose anything that I cannot measure.

=>Currently Selected Configuration: 3x BRS Dosing Pumps
=>New Option: Defer Ca & Alk until coral population begins to grow - address needs of a few corals through WC
** Deferred Cost $160 **

Quarantine Tanks
My original thought here was to use what is recommended on live aquaria website. They suggest the Coralife BioCube Aquarium System. I am not planning on running this all the time, but rather the daily water change path to keep ammonia in check while pulling filter media from main tank. Based upon the feedback from my post, I called our local PetCo. The $1/Gallon sale is starting next week at our local PetCo. Score!

=> Currently Selected Configuration: a) Fish QT - Coralife BioCube Aquarium System 29 Gallon - $195, b) Invert QT - Coralife BioCube Aquarium System 14 Gallon - $165, c) heater, improved lights, etc - $90
=>New Option: a) Fish QT - $140, b) Invert QT w/ T5 - $160
** QT Savings $100 **

Total Savings from ReefCentral Forum Recommendations: $835

[Mark...]

I just did a 180g with basement sump for the same cost as your 65. You just need to make adjustment to your equipment and do some comparison shopping.

[footballdude2k3]

I don't think the list looks too bad personally, this isn't the cheapest hobby, and while I do agree with some of the things that were said, I came home to a smoking tank last year, heater cracked and killed $5k in SPS in less than 12 hours. I will not be skimping on second rate equipment anymore, i.e Jaboe, Koralia pumps, crappy plastic heaters, and things like that. I prefer to keep as many things out of the water as possible now, VorTechs are worth it IME

[leewish]

Don't be afraid to use craigslist or local reef Facebook pages to purchase used. Equipment is like a car...the moment you buy them they lose value. Your not going to sell your tank/stand/canopy for 900. Your not going to sell it for 450. I just bought a great one for 150. If your careful you can get some great deals. There are always people getting out of the hobby. I routinely have to remind myself there will always be another deal bc I always wanted to buy something.

[inetmug]

Originally Posted by Stolireef

Actually, not only aren't you skimping, you are basically going top of the line with every piece of equipment. By way of example, you can get excellent tunze pumps that will link with your apex for less than half of what the MP10's will cost. Protien skimmer is similarly high end. Look at Reef Octopus. You can set up a solid QT for about $50. Don't bother with reactors. You probably won't even need them if you practice reasonably good husbandry. Go with dry rock and you cut that in half as well.

Nothing in your proposed setup is bad. In fact, everything is awesome but I believe over the top. You should easily be able to cut the price in half and still get the same results.

Yeah, but good stuff works. The difference in price from the good stuff to the mid level stuff usually is not that great overall. Get it done right from the beginning no matter what the cost of the "core components", lights, sump, pumps, skimmer, etc.

The other stuff as mentioned, can come in time. It is cool to get something new and exciting every now and then as well.

I want to get an Apex over time, it will happen.

[Amoo]

Originally Posted by samba_dad

Here is my cost breakdown...
Aqueon 65G Tank & R&J Stand w/ Canopy - $900
Lighting (2x AI Hydra 26) - $800
Powerheads (2x Vortech MP10WES) - $570
If you're dead set on getting the Vortechs, I would start with 1 and go from there.
RO/DI w/ Shutoff, TDS - $250
Protein Skimmer (Vertex Omega 150) - $400
Reef Octopus as others have said.
Pump & Sump (Aqueon ProFlex Model 4 & Eheim 1260) - $400
Definitely build your own sump, will cut at least $100 off of this. If you are skilled enough to run the plumbing to a sump, you are skilled enough to glue some silicone glass panels into a glass tank.
Carbon & PhosBan Reactors w/ pumps - $150
Ca, Alk & PO4 Dosing - $160
Apex Controller - Float Switch & Extra Probe - $700
Fish QT & Invert QT - $400
Wal-Mart just last week had 10g Aquarium setups for $30, you would just need a cheap power head, but the rest is there.
Red Sea Test Kits & Refractometer - $250
Heaters - $150
Live Rock & Live Sand - $450
I wouldn't go all LR/LS. Too many stories of people wishing they wouldn't have had all the bad hitchhikers they got going that route. Buy mostly "dead" and seed with a few lbs.
Thanks!

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see an ATO in here, unless you're including that with the float switch for apex, but will still need a pump and an emergency shutoff switch.

[Golden Age]

That's a lot.

That is all top of the line stuff so if your budget allows it and your wife/partner doesn't get mad, go for it.

That sort of build is most reefers dream when they are starting their tank. Most of us make do with what we have adding parts as we can.

[igot2gats]

Originally Posted by Stolireef

Actually, not only aren't you skimping, you are basically going top of the line with every piece of equipment. By way of example, you can get excellent tunze pumps that will link with your apex for less than half of what the MP10's will cost. Protien skimmer is similarly high end. Look at Reef Octopus. You can set up a solid QT for about $50. Don't bother with reactors. You probably won't even need them if you practice reasonably good husbandry. Go with dry rock and you cut that in half as well.

Nothing in your proposed setup is bad. In fact, everything is awesome but I believe over the top. You should easily be able to cut the price in half and still get the same results.

+1 to these thoughts.

Just an FYI: Nobody is saying that what you listed is incorrect, just that you could be spending too much by going that route. It's just a little too much.

But, if you want, go ahead. We're just trying to help you cut some costs...

I got my Reef Octopus skimmer for my 75g for $180, I believe.

And there is no way a QT should cost that much. That is one of benefits of a QT - it's very cheap to set up and run.

You can use the same QT for your fish as your inverts. A 30g (plenty big enough for any animal you plan on having in your tank) with a stand, filter, pvc hiding spots, ammonia badge, etc should run you under $100.

Dry rock is another great avenue, like stated before, to help cut costs drastically...

hth

[Amoo]

Originally Posted by igot2gats

You can use the same QT for your fish as your inverts.

Not trying to start a war here, but this isn't info I would consider correct. The first time you have to treat with copper that tank can never be used for inverts again. It's just easier, because like you said it is so cheap, to have things ready for a invert only QT.

[inetmug]

Originally Posted by Amoo

Not trying to start a war here, but this isn't info I would consider correct. The first time you have to treat with copper that tank can never be used for inverts again. It's just easier, because like you said it is so cheap, to have things ready for a invert only QT.

Nah, clean that tank good, its good to go. A common misconception, but debated by many.

[inetmug]

We have a classified section on here also right?

I have been waiting to "qualify" to see/use it.

Kinda lame IMO, buy the time you qualify, you have already bought everything you need out of necessity. Something like 8000 posts and 14 years to qualify...

[Shawn O]

Originally Posted by Golden Age

That's a lot.

That is all top of the line stuff so if your budget allows it and your wife/partner doesn't get mad, go for it.

That sort of build is most reefers dream when they are starting their tank. Most of us make do with what we have adding parts as we can.

What he said, if finances allow it. Why not start out with exactly what you want? It sure beats spending $2~3k and not being happy with it and spending even more than originally estimated to make it what you want.

[igot2gats]

Originally Posted by inetmug

Nah, clean that tank good, its good to go. A common misconception, but debated by many.

Agreed. It's all just preference. If you don't mind cleaning it, it's not a big deal.

Was just trying to help cut costs, like I mentioned before.

Originally Posted by Amoo

Not trying to start a war here

I understand. No offense taken...

[samba_dad]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback! As far as ATO, I was planning on a 3 float switch (2 high/1 low) configuration with the Apex. In fact, it is part of a WC system I want to automate. I know it's not helping my cost issue, but automating some of the maintenance and introducing some redundancy is one of the factors I am trying to think through. Great feedback everyone. Thanks!

[saltfishguy18]

I know you seem set on the mp powerheads but I have used the jebao wp series pumps for over a year with zero issues. A lot of people seen to love the jebao's plus price is awesome.