White lesions on royal gramma basslet tail - is it Ich?

[jayjay5531]

I have no experience with marine fish diseases. I have a royal gramma basslet, a bicolor angel, a red flame angel, an orchid dottyback, a Midas blenny, and a banggai cardinal in a 65 gallon tank. All the fish have been in there for three months or longer, except the royal gramma basslet which I've had for around 3 weeks. I check and feed my fish daily, but only yesterday I noticed these white lesions on the tail, sort of like two cottony white bumps, plus part of the tail is missing (unclear if another tank member bit it or if it just degraded due to some infection). It doesn't really seem to look like the pictures of marine ich I've seen, but I can't figure out what else it could be? (Sorry the picture is so blurry!)

How should I treat it? I have two shrimp in my tank, emerald crabs, hermit crabs, and a (dark black/reddish-colored) brittle star.

By the way, the brittle star is new. After floating the bag, I added tank water to the water the was already in the bag and then waited; then I submerged the cut-open bag in the water and allowed it to climb out on its own accord (I didn't just "net it out" because I wasn't sure if exposure to air was harmful or not?) But I guess this was a bad choice because it could have introduced disease into the tank via the tank water from the LFS.

[Uncle99]

Does your gramma not eat, have trouble breathing, scratch himself on rocks, act lethargically? If he has Ick he will have all these symptoms, and will progressively get worse.

I can see what your talking about, looks like someone chased him and had a bit.

I might just wait a bit and see if it progresses, if the fish is sick he will show signs of stress in his behavior.

[Uncle99]

Just remember if your going to treat, never in your DT.
The best would be cupramine, (copper) but as I said, outside the DT, or it will kill everything in your DT, and only treat him if there appears to be a real need...

[Bent]

There is a fungus amoung us.

[billdogg]

The lumps, IMO, look like lymphocytis. It does, however, look like somebody took a chunk or two out of it's tail. No action is needed if it is lymphocytis - the lumps will fall off on their own.

Who else is in the tank? Any hitchhikers you are aware (or unaware) of?

[monkeysee1]

Flukes?????
Is he flashing or rubbing up against the rocks? Are his eyes cloudy?
Something tells me it's flukes!

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

Does your gramma not eat, have trouble breathing, scratch himself on rocks, act lethargically? If he has Ick he will have all these symptoms, and will progressively get worse.

A fish can have non of those symptoms and still have ich

[jayjay5531]

Thanks all for your responses! No hitchhikers that I'm aware of. The fish isn't scratching against anything, and there's no unusual behavior. Here's a couple more photos

[jayjay5531]

Also he was acting slightly sluggishly a couple days ago but doesn't seem to be doing it today (maybe its a coincidence?) His eating has been normal

[Uncle99]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

A fish can have non of those symptoms and still have ich

Doubt it, the parasite attacks the gills first, where it has easy access to the blood it craves, a fish not displaying any of the above symptoms would only be for a day or two.... death is coming..

[Bent]

I still say it’s fungal.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

Doubt it, the parasite attacks the gills first, where it has easy access to the blood it craves, a fish not displaying any of the above symptoms would only be for a day or two.... death is coming..

Ich doesn't feed on blood, it feeds on the dead cells and the fluids that fill the inter cellular space. It is present at gills because gills have a lot more water flow and a lot more surface area compared to the rest of the body. Plus they have a very this mucus layer to allow gas exchange. It has nothing to do with craving blood.

I agree that if a fish shows all of those symptoms it will be few days away from death. But that doesn't mean all fish that have ich will go up to that point or will eventually have all those symptoms.

Some fish can gain immunity and others have naturally high resistance against protozoan parasites, so they can show very little external symptoms, but they will still have ich and carry it.

[Uncle99]

So if you could clarify....a fish can carry the Ick parasite.....move through the cycle....fall off then start the division trick.....but never feed on the host?

Can you help me with that?

[Uncle99]

True, some fish have a natural immunity from the sea, some develop immunity after surviving a bout.....my point was if you start to see something....Ick is one of the most common, fast action of copper or hypo can save your fish....but I hear you...

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

So if you could clarify....a fish can carry the Ick parasite.....move through the cycle....fall off then start the division trick.....but never feed on the host?

Can you help me with that?

It feeds on the fish but the numbers are so low that it wont cause visible symptoms. That is how people live with ich. It is present, but since the fish are immune to it, the infection level is too low to cause visible symptoms. It will still move trough its life cycle, fall and divide/multiply and etc., but in a tank where all fish are immune to it, only a fraction of the free swimming parasites would be able to attach to a host. Some research suggest if no new fish are added, it can eventually get eradicated, as a result of not being able to find a host (but even if we assume this happens, time frame for this to happen is too long, like a year). .


Even for a "un-immune" fish, by the time you get visible signals, it means ich went trough several cycles and multiplied its numbers.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

So if you could clarify....a fish can carry the Ick parasite.....move through the cycle....fall off then start the division trick.....but never feed on the host?

Can you help me with that?

Certainly! There are countless examples of latent ich in tanks. I have it in my main tank. Resident fish are essentially asymptomatic, but upon introduction of a susceptible fish ...... spots. Generally they disappear after a week. What mechanism is at work? I think it unlikely that the ich is dormant. If it is, then that is a big problem and means that the generally accepted 'fallow tank for 72 days' is useless. I think it far more likely that the parasite is going through its normal lifecycle, but at a low enough level that it goes unnoticed.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by jayjay5531

Thanks all for your responses! No hitchhikers that I'm aware of. The fish isn't scratching against anything, and there's no unusual behavior. Here's a couple more photos

I think it is probably not ich, more likely fungal, bacterial or lympho. That the leading edge of the damaged fin has a whitish cast to it probably means a secondary bacterial infection (classic fin rot) even if the primary blobs aren't. I would remove the fish and try a broad spectrum fish antibiotic like fish flox. I've had a lot of bacterial problems with new fish lately.

[Uncle99]

I had understood that after a period of time with no host (and that period max out at 72 days) or after a year of the cycle process (Ick wears itself out) then Ick is gone and only can occur if added to the bio-sphere again through new introductions, or water itself....

Do you agree with this research? I am interested in your thoughts.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

I had understood that after a period of time with no host (and that period max out at 72 days) or after a year of the cycle process (Ick wears itself out) then Ick is gone and only can occur if added to the bio-sphere again through new introductions, or water itself....

Do you agree with this research? I am interested in your thoughts.

72 days is mostly correct but some say as long as 90 days. Basically that is the time required to break ich's life cycle and starve it to death.

The other part is a bit more complicated. There seems to be some evidence that suggest it can get eradicated if all fish gets immune to it and no new fish (or ich strains) are added for a extended period of time. But exactly how long does this take or if it will always happen or not is unclear.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

I had understood that after a period of time with no host (and that period max out at 72 days) or after a year of the cycle process (Ick wears itself out) then Ick is gone and only can occur if added to the bio-sphere again through new introductions, or water itself....

I can only comment based on my own anecdotal observations/experiences. My current 'system' is 5 years old, original fish bought along with a 90 gallon tank off craigslist. Subsequent move to a 265 and now 450 gallon tank. Most of the original fish from 5 years ago remain - including a yellow and hippo tangs. I QT all new fish with a strict protocol, but I did not treat any of the fish when buying that original cragslist setup. While I cannot completely rule out the addition of a new ich strain, I do not believe that has happened; yet the original ich strain in my system from 5 years ago remains active. I know this because while my current fish population shows no symptoms, and most new QT'd fish do not, occasionally a susceptible addition does exhibit spots for a week or so. After that they disappear and do not return.

Draw your own conclusions. Mine are that I probably have a milder strain of ich and that it does not 'burn out' after just one year.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

There seems to be some evidence that suggest it can get eradicated if all fish gets immune to it and no new fish (or ich strains) are added for a extended period of time.

Although I have read similar, the logic of this makes no sense to me. If the resident fish were truly immune, then logically the ich parasite would die out in the same way it would if the tank were fishless - 72 days, give or take - yet it does not. If it is even true that ich dies out over a longer period of time (I've not observed this to be the case) it must be that the fish are immune enough to resist getting overwhelmed by the parasite but not to avoid some level of infection. That a single strain might die out must have something to do with limited genetic pool.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Although I have read similar, the logic of this makes no sense to me. If the resident fish were truly immune, then logically the ich parasite would die out in the same way it would if the tank were fishless - 72 days, give or take - yet it does not. If it is even true that ich dies out over a longer period of time (I've not observed this to be the case) it must be that the fish are immune enough to resist getting overwhelmed by the parasite but not to avoid some level of infection. That a single strain might die out must have something to do with limited genetic pool.

I think it takes a lot longer than 72 days because fish cannot get a 100% effective immunity against ich. So after each cycle they get somewhat more immune and harder to infect, but not completely immune (similar to malaria). So ich numbers gradually drop over a period of years(s). And since it this depends on the overall health of the immune system of the fish, if the immune system of even a single fish gets weakened for some reason, it can allow the ich population to recover.

So I believe basically it is what you said, their immunity only makes them harder targets, not "un-infectable". This cause the ich populations (that is also genetically constrained) to gradually drop and disappear. But this is why I said this immunity thing is complicated. It might be highly case specific, so one year, 2 years, or longer, or never could be the answer depending on the tank. We know very little about the microscopic makeup of our tanks. Some tanks might have a good population of protozoan predators (like amoebas), protozoan viruses, a large population of filter feeders. All these might determine if it is a complete eradication or a very small but viable population (like in your case).

The only case I observed ich dying out is with my dad's tank. My dad has a 300g tank that he has been keeping for more than 20 years. When I was still living with my parents I remember he had ich. But it eventually disappeared. Now he qt's his fish and no fish, new or old show any spots. It makes me believe at some point, ich disappeared.

[jayjay5531]

I still haven't administered any treatment. If it's ich then the parasites should have "dropped off" by now right? Should I go ahead and give ich medication just to be safe? But some folks^ think its fungus, bacteria, or flukes lol so I'm not sure which to prioritize.

[swiftvision]

Originally Posted by Uncle99

True, some fish have a natural immunity from the sea, some develop immunity after surviving a bout.....my point was if you start to see something....Ick is one of the most common, fast action of copper or hypo can save your fish....but I hear you...

My purple tang got ick right after I bought her. The LFS said, meh, it's normal, keep your water healthy, add a UV light, and it will be fine and heal on it's own.

It was true, went from COVERED in dots to totally normal in a week. No other fishes have ever got it. I never treated it at all other then step up up my tank cleanings.

[swiftvision]

Originally Posted by jayjay5531

I still haven't administered any treatment. If it's ich then the parasites should have "dropped off" by now right? Should I go ahead and give ich medication just to be safe? But some folks^ think its fungus, bacteria, or flukes lol so I'm not sure which to prioritize.

Honestly, I'd start with feeding garlic. It is amazing! Seriously.