LS gurus: easy questions not easily answered

newkie · 11/17/1999, 03:07 PM

I recently moved my 110g and am afraid I disturbed the little bit of life in my sandbed. I was considering some LS but I need some help first.
My sandbed is mostly aragonite in the 2mm range. When I moved the tank I shoved all the sand to the front half of the tank to put the rock down. The rock has trapped most of the sand in the front, so now I have 4-5" of sand in the front.

Here's the real question, I've seen many recommendations which seem to indicate 10% curshed coral, 30-40% aragonite (2mm), and the majority remainder oolite.

Most of the recent recommendations for LS have been of the Florida variety. While bursting with life I fear Florinda LS to be of a much larger grain size ( >= 2mm ) than I need. Can anyone offer a suggestion?

PS: The life I did have was from 3 detrivore kits, but I'd say only 1-2 worms were visible on the front glass at any given time. No direct LS has ever been added.

Cheers,
Chris

DougL · 11/17/1999, 03:50 PM

greenbud;
I am not a guru, but I am opinionated!

This is a chance to add oolite. After the oolite has been established, add live sand from several sources. While I have heard good
things about florida live sand, I would consider it to be the inoculate, not the media. Another MO live sand inoculate that comes
highly recommended (I will try some soon) is the Inland "Grundge Match". However, my understanding is you may do as well by
adding LS from several LFS.

By the way, I consider the kits to be a supplement to live sand. Live sand has many small bi-valves, etc. that any kit lacks. The
value of the kit is that you can get some of the larger sand organisms that don't ship well when shipped in sand.

Another recommendation is to check out Ron's sand inspection article at http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_shimek4.html

I have some light reading

on live sand at http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy/sandbed.html

Just my $.02

DougL

------------------
http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy

newkie · 11/17/1999, 05:07 PM

Doug, yes I'm familar with your LS website. Light reading indeed

. Well I guess I didn't state clearly enough that I feel I already have quite a bit of substrate. As I mentioned I'm already at 4-5".

If I follow the above grain size recommendation I should have over 50% oolite. I can't have 8-10" of substate! Yes, I suppose the obvious solution is to remove some 2mm aragonite and purchase around 80# of oolite. But I guess it seems expensive and unnecessary to me unless I can be convinced otherwise.... (the challenge)!

I think I was more hopefull of finding an oolite LS to kill two birds with one stone or at least not add to the size substrate which I already have an overabudnace of. And thoughts?

[This message has been edited by greenbud (edited 11-17-1999).]

newkie · 11/17/1999, 05:48 PM

Doug, I was re-reading many of the articles on your web site when something struck me like lightening. This may be an extreme case of DUH!!!

My problem is that I have too much large grain sized aragonite. Can't I simply crush the aragonite I already have into oolite/sugar sand grain sizes?

If so, my problem is solved. How should I go about doing this?

rshimek · 11/17/1999, 07:04 PM

Howdy folks,

Well, some points; first, 2 mm crushed coral gravel about as useless as the teats on a boar hog as far as a biological filter or sand substrate is concerned. It is not only too large to foster much life, it has too many sharp edges - which do affect the small critters. Second, fine oolitic sand with a small addition of coarser material will not blow in currents. The coarser stuff will always come to lie on the surface and it acts like armor rock or rip-rap, and after a brief period of instability, the stuff is really immobile. Especially after some critters get into it and build some tubes - it then becomes very stable.

The greater the faunal population you can get going in the sand, the more sps corals as well as other filter feeders you are going to be able to grow, as the animals in the sediment put a LOT of food into the water.

So, presuming you want to do facilitate the bed... It seems to me your options are reasonably clear. Remove about all but about 1/2 inch of the crushed coral and add about 3-4 inches of oolitic on top of it. Reseed with some starter kits, and in about 3-6 months you should have a good sand bed. Incidently, you probably won't notice any deleterious effects from this switch, as the crushed coral really isn't doing much as a filter. Bacterial colonization of the sand will take only a few days, and it will be an operational filter before very long at all.

Cheers, Ron

rshimek · 11/18/1999, 12:20 PM

Hi Chris,

Well, the cost x benefit analysis here is your game. If you put in a good sand bed, the nitrates and phosphates should drop to very low or undetectable levels, and the bed will also produce food for all of your suspension feeders (and all soft corals feed). So...

On the other hand, it probably doesn't need to be done yesterday.

I think, if it were my tank, I would bite the bullet and go ahead and change it ASAP, as it will take a while for the bed to set up and become fully functional.

Cheers, Ron

newkie · 11/18/1999, 12:43 PM

Okay, you AND Rob Toonen seem to agree I blew it! That aside, I'm a little confused here on a "solution". (Although the tank seems to be faring quite well with nitrate holding around 15, even my girlfriend said "you know you'll do it anyway, so why not just do it now?" What a woman!) In a previous post you said:
"Remove about all but about 1/2 inch of the crushed coral and add about 3-4 inches of oolitic on top of it. "
Rob Toonen has said
"Ron Shimek actually measured some of these products for us, and found that a mix of 2 parts ESV oolitic sand to 1 part CaribSea Aragamax sugar sand was "close enough for government work." I'd say that is as close to a rule of thumb for the sand composition the get the mixture of grain sizes that I recommend as you're going to get. "

Do you still agree with the above statement or would you know recommend going solely with ESV oolitic?

Lastly, for a standard 110g tank how many pounds roughly make up 1 inch?

Thanks much for you help. I'm depressed I wasted my money, but I'm happy to know the right answers.

Cheers,
Chris

newkie · 11/18/1999, 01:23 PM

Ahh! I couldn't wait, I guess this is what they mean by reef addict.

I just bit the bullet and got 150# of ESV oolite and 90# CaribSea Aragamax sugar sand. Grand total including shipping to CA? $225 (add another $75 is 2mm aragonite I'm tossing in the garbage). I spent less on my calcium reactor!.... hope its worth it! Trust me, you'll hear from me if its not

Thanks for all the help!

[This message has been edited by greenbud (edited 11-18-1999).]

DougL · 11/18/1999, 01:23 PM

Chris;
If its any consolation, I still have a plenum with 2/3 aragonite and 1/3 pullet feed (crushed oyster shell). I have added about 10 lb. of
oolite to the back corners to get some life. Everything is going well, so I am really hesitant to disrupt it.
My compromise was a large refugium with all oolite substrate.

Bottom line, I feel your pain. Good luck with what ever you decide.

Good Luck;

DougL

------------------
http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy

newkie · 11/18/1999, 11:50 PM

Okay, okay, so basically I'm hosed. I was hoping/praying for a solution to utilize what I already had. I just recently replaced my crushed coral with aragonite and was given the wrong impression at my lfs that this was the right thing to do. Its just more money down the drain right?

I guess my question is now is this: is it worth it? The tank is going well, nitrates hold around 15. Isn't fantasitic, but isn't all that bad. My tank is mainly soft corals consisting of a couple toadstool leathers, multiple types of mushrooms, multiple types of polyps, and one closed brain. Is the effort worth the benefit in your opinion?

Thanks,
Chris

11/17/1999, 03:07 PM	#1
newkie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Galway, Ireland Posts: 3,376	I recently moved my 110g and am afraid I disturbed the little bit of life in my sandbed. I was considering some LS but I need some help first. My sandbed is mostly aragonite in the 2mm range. When I moved the tank I shoved all the sand to the front half of the tank to put the rock down. The rock has trapped most of the sand in the front, so now I have 4-5" of sand in the front. Here's the real question, I've seen many recommendations which seem to indicate 10% curshed coral, 30-40% aragonite (2mm), and the majority remainder oolite. Most of the recent recommendations for LS have been of the Florida variety. While bursting with life I fear Florinda LS to be of a much larger grain size ( >= 2mm ) than I need. Can anyone offer a suggestion? PS: The life I did have was from 3 detrivore kits, but I'd say only 1-2 worms were visible on the front glass at any given time. No direct LS has ever been added. Cheers, Chris

11/17/1999, 03:50 PM	#2
DougL Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Wheaton Il Posts: 374	greenbud; I am not a guru, but I am opinionated! This is a chance to add oolite. After the oolite has been established, add live sand from several sources. While I have heard good things about florida live sand, I would consider it to be the inoculate, not the media. Another MO live sand inoculate that comes highly recommended (I will try some soon) is the Inland "Grundge Match". However, my understanding is you may do as well by adding LS from several LFS. By the way, I consider the kits to be a supplement to live sand. Live sand has many small bi-valves, etc. that any kit lacks. The value of the kit is that you can get some of the larger sand organisms that don't ship well when shipped in sand. Another recommendation is to check out Ron's sand inspection article at http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_shimek4.html I have some light reading on live sand at http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy/sandbed.html Just my $.02 DougL ------------------ http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy

11/17/1999, 05:07 PM	#3
newkie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Galway, Ireland Posts: 3,376	Doug, yes I'm familar with your LS website. Light reading indeed . Well I guess I didn't state clearly enough that I feel I already have quite a bit of substrate. As I mentioned I'm already at 4-5". If I follow the above grain size recommendation I should have over 50% oolite. I can't have 8-10" of substate! Yes, I suppose the obvious solution is to remove some 2mm aragonite and purchase around 80# of oolite. But I guess it seems expensive and unnecessary to me unless I can be convinced otherwise.... (the challenge)! I think I was more hopefull of finding an oolite LS to kill two birds with one stone or at least not add to the size substrate which I already have an overabudnace of. And thoughts? [This message has been edited by greenbud (edited 11-17-1999).]

11/17/1999, 05:48 PM	#4
newkie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Galway, Ireland Posts: 3,376	Doug, I was re-reading many of the articles on your web site when something struck me like lightening. This may be an extreme case of DUH!!! My problem is that I have too much large grain sized aragonite. Can't I simply crush the aragonite I already have into oolite/sugar sand grain sizes? If so, my problem is solved. How should I go about doing this?

11/17/1999, 07:04 PM	#5
rshimek Moved On Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 24,538	Howdy folks, Well, some points; first, 2 mm crushed coral gravel about as useless as the teats on a boar hog as far as a biological filter or sand substrate is concerned. It is not only too large to foster much life, it has too many sharp edges - which do affect the small critters. Second, fine oolitic sand with a small addition of coarser material will not blow in currents. The coarser stuff will always come to lie on the surface and it acts like armor rock or rip-rap, and after a brief period of instability, the stuff is really immobile. Especially after some critters get into it and build some tubes - it then becomes very stable. The greater the faunal population you can get going in the sand, the more sps corals as well as other filter feeders you are going to be able to grow, as the animals in the sediment put a LOT of food into the water. So, presuming you want to do facilitate the bed... It seems to me your options are reasonably clear. Remove about all but about 1/2 inch of the crushed coral and add about 3-4 inches of oolitic on top of it. Reseed with some starter kits, and in about 3-6 months you should have a good sand bed. Incidently, you probably won't notice any deleterious effects from this switch, as the crushed coral really isn't doing much as a filter. Bacterial colonization of the sand will take only a few days, and it will be an operational filter before very long at all. Cheers, Ron

11/18/1999, 12:20 PM	#6
rshimek Moved On Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 24,538	Hi Chris, Well, the cost x benefit analysis here is your game. If you put in a good sand bed, the nitrates and phosphates should drop to very low or undetectable levels, and the bed will also produce food for all of your suspension feeders (and all soft corals feed). So... On the other hand, it probably doesn't need to be done yesterday. I think, if it were my tank, I would bite the bullet and go ahead and change it ASAP, as it will take a while for the bed to set up and become fully functional. Cheers, Ron

11/18/1999, 12:43 PM	#7
newkie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Galway, Ireland Posts: 3,376	Okay, you AND Rob Toonen seem to agree I blew it! That aside, I'm a little confused here on a "solution". (Although the tank seems to be faring quite well with nitrate holding around 15, even my girlfriend said "you know you'll do it anyway, so why not just do it now?" What a woman!) In a previous post you said: "Remove about all but about 1/2 inch of the crushed coral and add about 3-4 inches of oolitic on top of it. " Rob Toonen has said "Ron Shimek actually measured some of these products for us, and found that a mix of 2 parts ESV oolitic sand to 1 part CaribSea Aragamax sugar sand was "close enough for government work." I'd say that is as close to a rule of thumb for the sand composition the get the mixture of grain sizes that I recommend as you're going to get. " Do you still agree with the above statement or would you know recommend going solely with ESV oolitic? Lastly, for a standard 110g tank how many pounds roughly make up 1 inch? Thanks much for you help. I'm depressed I wasted my money, but I'm happy to know the right answers. Cheers, Chris

11/18/1999, 01:23 PM	#8
newkie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Galway, Ireland Posts: 3,376	Ahh! I couldn't wait, I guess this is what they mean by reef addict. I just bit the bullet and got 150# of ESV oolite and 90# CaribSea Aragamax sugar sand. Grand total including shipping to CA? $225 (add another $75 is 2mm aragonite I'm tossing in the garbage). I spent less on my calcium reactor!.... hope its worth it! Trust me, you'll hear from me if its not Thanks for all the help! [This message has been edited by greenbud (edited 11-18-1999).]

11/18/1999, 11:50 PM	#10
newkie Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Galway, Ireland Posts: 3,376	Okay, okay, so basically I'm hosed. I was hoping/praying for a solution to utilize what I already had. I just recently replaced my crushed coral with aragonite and was given the wrong impression at my lfs that this was the right thing to do. Its just more money down the drain right? I guess my question is now is this: is it worth it? The tank is going well, nitrates hold around 15. Isn't fantasitic, but isn't all that bad. My tank is mainly soft corals consisting of a couple toadstool leathers, multiple types of mushrooms, multiple types of polyps, and one closed brain. Is the effort worth the benefit in your opinion? Thanks, Chris