Purchase Live Rock from online or LFS??? Need help ASAP

chiefrokka · 02/18/2006, 09:14 AM

I'm about to purchasee 60 lbs. of live rock... I'm converting my 75g tank to a reef tank... I've always bought rock online but over 3 years have never had a stable tank where fish didn't die over 6-12 months.... I kind of want to do everything right this time.

Is it worth saving like 200 bucks on LR from purchasing cured rock online? I just want to put it in my tank and be good to go with all the life on it. I'm not into quarantine and curing rocks. I have 8 fish already in tank and just want to buy the rock and form all my caves and be done with it with no worries.

Pros for buying at a Local Fish Store:
- I can transfer rock in water so there wouldn't be any die-offs on the rock and it should still have all the life on it like while in the store.
- rock isn't sitting on a plane with just a wet towel.
- I can see what the rock looks like first.
- the LFS guy said he would help pick out all the best rocks for my size tank and could show me how to set it up to get perfect water flow that he says is extremely important for reef tanks.

Cons:
- extremely expensive... 6.99/lb. compared to like 3 or 4 bucks a pound from online stores. 200 bucks compared to 400 bucks I'll be spending at LFS.

any suggestions... I'm going to buy rock in few hours at LFS unless people talk me out of wasting my $$!!!!

thedigitalimager · 02/18/2006, 09:31 AM

If you're LFS has good rock, that seems like the way to go for all the reasons you stated. One of the best live rocks I've come across is the Buna Branch . It has great shapes, lots of different colors of coraline, and is very porous. I like it better than Marshall Island rock, but that's just my opinion.

mechfish · 02/18/2006, 09:32 AM

i have only bought all my rock from lfs.you have to be carefull though i have found some stores say its cured and its really not and it has messed my tank up a couple of times. u have to find a store that u trust because some just dont care that much and will sell u anything. JMO

thedigitalimager · 02/18/2006, 09:37 AM

you have to be carefull though i have found some stores say its cured and its really not

"Cured" is a very loosely used term. It's always best to cure any rock that you put in your tank for the first time. If you have a decent skimmer, you'll be able to determine quickly just how "cured" it is.

sequential · 02/18/2006, 09:41 AM

I advocate purchasing it online unless you have a very good LFS. What is the quality of the LR? What percentage is covered by coralline algae? What type of rock is it? What shapes do you need?

The only reason I buy LR at my LFS is when I need to hand pick shapes, and then I usually buy base rock because of limited quality and supply.

There is good advice to be had here or other sites on how to set up your LR, how to cure it, how to aquascape, and how to set up the flow. If you are uncomfortable with following the advice here, the time of the LFS is worth the difference in price, but you will learn it's not that complicated.

mechfish · 02/18/2006, 09:47 AM

"Cured" is a very loosely used term

it sure is

chiefrokka · 02/18/2006, 09:53 AM

ya, I've heard that "cured" is a very loose term and you really never know.... The LFS guy is extremely knowledged and I trust only the owner since he's been there 15 years... rest of the workers kinda suck..

anyways, their LR doesn't excite me to be honest with you... It's not that colorful but I did see quite a few feather polyp looking things on them... and the owner says they are truly "cured" and he doesn't sell just to sell because he tries to build relationships... he even told me to go online to get a skimmer or lighting cuz I could find it cheaper probably... he said LR is one thing he wouldn't recommend online cuz you just don't know what your getting.

honestly though, I've seen better looking colored LR from online... but of course they take the best picture possible and act like every rock looks like that. so who knows.

-----
whats my worst case scenario if I buy online? let's say I put 60 lbs. in my tank from online and it technically isn't "cured"... I can't tell the difference really so what would I actually have to do if anything besides waiting for all the "die-offs" to occur for how many weeks before I can start putting some corals in?

mechfish · 02/18/2006, 10:13 AM

if u dont mind waiting for it to cure and can get it a lot cheaper online i would go for it.i have paid $6 to $7 per pound for all of my rock at LFS because i am impatient .but it comes out to be a lot of money that i wasted.even the socalled cured rock that i have bought took a long time for stuff to grow back.If i had to do it all again i would buy all the rock i needed up front and cure it.

RandyP · 02/18/2006, 10:17 AM

Well the problem I see about buying the rock online ( and I buy all of my rock online) is even it it is pre-cured it is still going to have some die off during the shipment to you..So your tank will have to still go though at least another mini cycle....How mini that is?....well that is the problem...it all depends on the rock...I dont think I would be sticking a bunch of live rock into a tank that has 8 fish in it with hope if does not cycle to hard...I would buy my rock, either local or mail order but I would either remove the fish for a few day or either place the rock into another tank for a few days and add it slowly to my main tank once my readings are in check

sequential · 02/18/2006, 10:34 AM

Worst case scenario if you do not cure your rock, is that your tank cycles hard, killing off the less hardy livestock. This can happen with LFS or online LR.

If you insist on putting the LR right into your tank without curing it, at least scrub the rock off lightly and rinse it under tap water. There are various threads here that talk about doing so. After the LR is in your tank, test every day faithfully. You can do small water changes daily or larger water changes weekly to keep things in check. Post here if you begin to cycle and need help. Use RO/DI water, either stuff you produce or LFS bought to do all the water changes. Having increased flow, 10 - 20 gph per gallon, will help. A skimmer will help too.

This doesn't prevent deaths, it just reduces the risks, so if you follow this advice, which I advise against, you may still have losses. I strongly advise curing any LR, LFS or online purchased, before putting it in your main tank.

This hobby rewards patience.

ratherbediving · 02/18/2006, 11:52 AM

I agree with the above posts, sticking in 60 lbs of mail order live rock into a 75 gallon tank with all of the fish still in the tank is a good way to kill all your fish. If you want to do this-- and want to keep costs down-- maybe think of getting 30 lbs of live rock from your LFS and 30 lbs of base rock. It is nice to support your LFS if you can, if you think they are a good business worth supporting. Your rock might not look as nice as some mail order rock, but it may not matter much once you get the rock covered in corals.

BlackOnyx · 02/18/2006, 12:43 PM

You tend to pay 6 bucks a lb for LR while having it shipped is $4-5 that includes shipping.

mikenpam · 02/18/2006, 03:36 PM

If you like the rock go local. You do take a chance with mail order; however, I ordered on line at premium aquatics (our local cured is $11.00 per pound) and used marshall island rock. It looks great. In either case I would not place it right into the main tank. You can use a plastic garbage can or plastic tub with saltwater and powerhead. Test the water for a few days to see how the parameters are. If there is no amonia spike then transfer your rocks to your main tank. It will take a bit of work but once done you will have a great bological filter in place.

chiefrokka · 02/18/2006, 09:37 PM

ok, so your saying set up a big tote with normal salt water and just a powerhead giving it current and leave the newly bought live rock in there for a few days... then test it and if chemicals are fine they it's safe to put them in? What about temperature and all that?

oh ya, I'm going to be giving the french angle and foxnose to LFS for credit once i do get the rock (I may get it next weekend instead... gotta make sure i have enough research from you guys done first). So technically I will have 4 small clown fish, a flame angel, and a blenny in tank... all small guys and worst case if they do die i'm not out hundreds of $$ since they all cost 15-30 bucks a pop.

the LFS has a huge tank filled with the LR so if I had them test all the water in there wouldn't that be the same thing as testing it at my house technically... meaning, if they are technically "cured" at the LFS then his chemicals would be perfect in that huge tank right? And if requested all the rock at the bottom of this tank that would ensure possibly that they have been in there the longest and are cured longer (unless they do rotate and in that case I'd ask and take top pieces)

I figure after shipping from online I'd be saving $2/lb. so maybe 120 bucks.. prob. best to just go with LFS and see what i'm getting

PatMayo · 02/18/2006, 09:49 PM

chiefrokka,
Look at my post, http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=780206,

All of this rock was precured from the Local Reef store. I paid 6.99 per pound. It was great rock. Lots of coraline. this tank has only been up for about 3 weeks. Some of it did come from my 46 gallon which I tore down, it was up for 5 months.

anyway, I personally would buy pre-cured. I have a good relationship with my local Reef store so they saved me the real good rock. I am not into the whole curring mess either.

Regards,

Pat

BarkingCrab · 02/18/2006, 10:08 PM

chiefrokka - a suggestion might be to check with a local reef club and see if you can find a local reefer that's breaking down a tank. I see you note your location as NH. Check the forums at www.bostonreefers.org and you may be able to find some cured rock at a very reasonable price.

I did this to set up my 75. I bought 65 lbs to augment what I already had from a guy that was breaking down his reef to move. I paid like $3.50 a pound for the rock and it was in great shape - good amount of coralline, and no cycle at all. I was able to take if out of the source tank, drive it home in a bucket, and get it into the new tank the same day.

hans1976 · 02/19/2006, 07:02 AM

BarkingCrab is right. This allows you get to get cured rock at a reasonable price (usually $3-$4 per pound). And by recycling, you are helping to keep the oceans in tact.

jpitch · 02/19/2006, 08:26 AM

I've seen more than a few suggestions using garbage containers or bug plastic bins for cycling LR. Don't the containers need to be food grade material? I heard chemicals leak into the water if you don't use food grade plastics.

chiefrokka · 02/19/2006, 11:17 AM

thanks BarkingCrab... I will def. spend some time on that site and see if I can't find anybody looking to get rid of some rock. Does anybody know of any NH clubs at all? I'm near Manchester, NH

great pics Pat.. it's always helpful to see pics of peoples setup and see their sump and everything. It does look like a lot of rock you have and doesn't seem like you have many openings for water flow... but I'm sure it's different in person like you said.

m3ntal · 02/19/2006, 11:46 AM

i bought 88lbs of kaileni live rock from SEATRADEMARINE.COM. Bernie is super knowledgable in reef keeping.

He said the stuff is only powerwashed and in a curing vat for a short time and recommended that i cure it for at least another 2 weeks in my main tank with no livestock.

I'm on my 7th day now and things are going good.

02/18/2006, 09:14 AM	#1
chiefrokka Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NH Posts: 107	Purchase Live Rock from online or LFS??? Need help ASAP I'm about to purchasee 60 lbs. of live rock... I'm converting my 75g tank to a reef tank... I've always bought rock online but over 3 years have never had a stable tank where fish didn't die over 6-12 months.... I kind of want to do everything right this time. Is it worth saving like 200 bucks on LR from purchasing cured rock online? I just want to put it in my tank and be good to go with all the life on it. I'm not into quarantine and curing rocks. I have 8 fish already in tank and just want to buy the rock and form all my caves and be done with it with no worries. Pros for buying at a Local Fish Store: - I can transfer rock in water so there wouldn't be any die-offs on the rock and it should still have all the life on it like while in the store. - rock isn't sitting on a plane with just a wet towel. - I can see what the rock looks like first. - the LFS guy said he would help pick out all the best rocks for my size tank and could show me how to set it up to get perfect water flow that he says is extremely important for reef tanks. Cons: - extremely expensive... 6.99/lb. compared to like 3 or 4 bucks a pound from online stores. 200 bucks compared to 400 bucks I'll be spending at LFS. any suggestions... I'm going to buy rock in few hours at LFS unless people talk me out of wasting my $$!!!!

02/18/2006, 09:49 PM	#15
PatMayo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,843	chiefrokka, Look at my post, http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=780206, All of this rock was precured from the Local Reef store. I paid 6.99 per pound. It was great rock. Lots of coraline. this tank has only been up for about 3 weeks. Some of it did come from my 46 gallon which I tore down, it was up for 5 months. anyway, I personally would buy pre-cured. I have a good relationship with my local Reef store so they saved me the real good rock. I am not into the whole curring mess either. Regards, Pat __________________ 90 AGA Megaflow (Setup 1-24-06) 120 Lbs. Liverock EuroReef RS 100 Skimmer 2 X 150 MH 2 X 96 watt PC Actinic 2 Clarki Clowns (31 months old) 1 Niger Trigger (Owned 6 months) 2 Tunze 6055 PH Current Tank Info: 90 AGA Megaflow To Be Mixed Reef

02/18/2006, 10:08 PM	#16
BarkingCrab Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: South of Boston, MA Posts: 98	chiefrokka - a suggestion might be to check with a local reef club and see if you can find a local reefer that's breaking down a tank. I see you note your location as NH. Check the forums at www.bostonreefers.org and you may be able to find some cured rock at a very reasonable price. I did this to set up my 75. I bought 65 lbs to augment what I already had from a guy that was breaking down his reef to move. I paid like $3.50 a pound for the rock and it was in great shape - good amount of coralline, and no cycle at all. I was able to take if out of the source tank, drive it home in a bucket, and get it into the new tank the same day. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum. Current Tank Info: 75g Oceanic, EuroReef , 30g custom sump, Mag7 Return, Tek T5 6x54w

02/19/2006, 07:02 AM	#17
hans1976 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 3,239	BarkingCrab is right. This allows you get to get cured rock at a reasonable price (usually $3-$4 per pound). And by recycling, you are helping to keep the oceans in tact. __________________ Jeff PAST CTARS President Past MASNA Treasurer

02/18/2006, 09:31 AM	#2
thedigitalimager Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Rockport, Texas Posts: 173	If you're LFS has good rock, that seems like the way to go for all the reasons you stated. One of the best live rocks I've come across is the Buna Branch . It has great shapes, lots of different colors of coraline, and is very porous. I like it better than Marshall Island rock, but that's just my opinion.

02/18/2006, 09:32 AM	#3
mechfish Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Warwick,RI Posts: 24	i have only bought all my rock from lfs.you have to be carefull though i have found some stores say its cured and its really not and it has messed my tank up a couple of times. u have to find a store that u trust because some just dont care that much and will sell u anything. JMO

02/18/2006, 09:37 AM	#4
thedigitalimager Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Rockport, Texas Posts: 173	you have to be carefull though i have found some stores say its cured and its really not "Cured" is a very loosely used term. It's always best to cure any rock that you put in your tank for the first time. If you have a decent skimmer, you'll be able to determine quickly just how "cured" it is.

02/18/2006, 09:41 AM	#5
sequential Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 266	I advocate purchasing it online unless you have a very good LFS. What is the quality of the LR? What percentage is covered by coralline algae? What type of rock is it? What shapes do you need? The only reason I buy LR at my LFS is when I need to hand pick shapes, and then I usually buy base rock because of limited quality and supply. There is good advice to be had here or other sites on how to set up your LR, how to cure it, how to aquascape, and how to set up the flow. If you are uncomfortable with following the advice here, the time of the LFS is worth the difference in price, but you will learn it's not that complicated.

02/18/2006, 09:47 AM	#6
mechfish Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Warwick,RI Posts: 24	"Cured" is a very loosely used term it sure is

02/18/2006, 09:53 AM	#7
chiefrokka Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NH Posts: 107	ya, I've heard that "cured" is a very loose term and you really never know.... The LFS guy is extremely knowledged and I trust only the owner since he's been there 15 years... rest of the workers kinda suck.. anyways, their LR doesn't excite me to be honest with you... It's not that colorful but I did see quite a few feather polyp looking things on them... and the owner says they are truly "cured" and he doesn't sell just to sell because he tries to build relationships... he even told me to go online to get a skimmer or lighting cuz I could find it cheaper probably... he said LR is one thing he wouldn't recommend online cuz you just don't know what your getting. honestly though, I've seen better looking colored LR from online... but of course they take the best picture possible and act like every rock looks like that. so who knows. ----- whats my worst case scenario if I buy online? let's say I put 60 lbs. in my tank from online and it technically isn't "cured"... I can't tell the difference really so what would I actually have to do if anything besides waiting for all the "die-offs" to occur for how many weeks before I can start putting some corals in?

02/18/2006, 10:13 AM	#8
mechfish Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Warwick,RI Posts: 24	if u dont mind waiting for it to cure and can get it a lot cheaper online i would go for it.i have paid $6 to $7 per pound for all of my rock at LFS because i am impatient .but it comes out to be a lot of money that i wasted.even the socalled cured rock that i have bought took a long time for stuff to grow back.If i had to do it all again i would buy all the rock i needed up front and cure it.

02/18/2006, 10:17 AM	#9
RandyP Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 99	Well the problem I see about buying the rock online ( and I buy all of my rock online) is even it it is pre-cured it is still going to have some die off during the shipment to you..So your tank will have to still go though at least another mini cycle....How mini that is?....well that is the problem...it all depends on the rock...I dont think I would be sticking a bunch of live rock into a tank that has 8 fish in it with hope if does not cycle to hard...I would buy my rock, either local or mail order but I would either remove the fish for a few day or either place the rock into another tank for a few days and add it slowly to my main tank once my readings are in check

02/18/2006, 10:34 AM	#10
sequential Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 266	Worst case scenario if you do not cure your rock, is that your tank cycles hard, killing off the less hardy livestock. This can happen with LFS or online LR. If you insist on putting the LR right into your tank without curing it, at least scrub the rock off lightly and rinse it under tap water. There are various threads here that talk about doing so. After the LR is in your tank, test every day faithfully. You can do small water changes daily or larger water changes weekly to keep things in check. Post here if you begin to cycle and need help. Use RO/DI water, either stuff you produce or LFS bought to do all the water changes. Having increased flow, 10 - 20 gph per gallon, will help. A skimmer will help too. This doesn't prevent deaths, it just reduces the risks, so if you follow this advice, which I advise against, you may still have losses. I strongly advise curing any LR, LFS or online purchased, before putting it in your main tank. This hobby rewards patience.

02/18/2006, 11:52 AM	#11
ratherbediving Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 558	I agree with the above posts, sticking in 60 lbs of mail order live rock into a 75 gallon tank with all of the fish still in the tank is a good way to kill all your fish. If you want to do this-- and want to keep costs down-- maybe think of getting 30 lbs of live rock from your LFS and 30 lbs of base rock. It is nice to support your LFS if you can, if you think they are a good business worth supporting. Your rock might not look as nice as some mail order rock, but it may not matter much once you get the rock covered in corals.

02/18/2006, 12:43 PM	#12
BlackOnyx Moved On Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: in front of my tank Posts: 474	You tend to pay 6 bucks a lb for LR while having it shipped is $4-5 that includes shipping.

02/18/2006, 03:36 PM	#13
mikenpam Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 326	If you like the rock go local. You do take a chance with mail order; however, I ordered on line at premium aquatics (our local cured is $11.00 per pound) and used marshall island rock. It looks great. In either case I would not place it right into the main tank. You can use a plastic garbage can or plastic tub with saltwater and powerhead. Test the water for a few days to see how the parameters are. If there is no amonia spike then transfer your rocks to your main tank. It will take a bit of work but once done you will have a great bological filter in place.

02/18/2006, 09:37 PM	#14
chiefrokka Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NH Posts: 107	ok, so your saying set up a big tote with normal salt water and just a powerhead giving it current and leave the newly bought live rock in there for a few days... then test it and if chemicals are fine they it's safe to put them in? What about temperature and all that? oh ya, I'm going to be giving the french angle and foxnose to LFS for credit once i do get the rock (I may get it next weekend instead... gotta make sure i have enough research from you guys done first). So technically I will have 4 small clown fish, a flame angel, and a blenny in tank... all small guys and worst case if they do die i'm not out hundreds of $$ since they all cost 15-30 bucks a pop. the LFS has a huge tank filled with the LR so if I had them test all the water in there wouldn't that be the same thing as testing it at my house technically... meaning, if they are technically "cured" at the LFS then his chemicals would be perfect in that huge tank right? And if requested all the rock at the bottom of this tank that would ensure possibly that they have been in there the longest and are cured longer (unless they do rotate and in that case I'd ask and take top pieces) I figure after shipping from online I'd be saving $2/lb. so maybe 120 bucks.. prob. best to just go with LFS and see what i'm getting

02/19/2006, 08:26 AM	#18
jpitch Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Middle Island, NY Posts: 908	I've seen more than a few suggestions using garbage containers or bug plastic bins for cycling LR. Don't the containers need to be food grade material? I heard chemicals leak into the water if you don't use food grade plastics.

02/19/2006, 11:17 AM	#19
chiefrokka Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NH Posts: 107	thanks BarkingCrab... I will def. spend some time on that site and see if I can't find anybody looking to get rid of some rock. Does anybody know of any NH clubs at all? I'm near Manchester, NH great pics Pat.. it's always helpful to see pics of peoples setup and see their sump and everything. It does look like a lot of rock you have and doesn't seem like you have many openings for water flow... but I'm sure it's different in person like you said.

02/19/2006, 11:46 AM	#20
m3ntal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 122	i bought 88lbs of kaileni live rock from SEATRADEMARINE.COM. Bernie is super knowledgable in reef keeping. He said the stuff is only powerwashed and in a curing vat for a short time and recommended that i cure it for at least another 2 weeks in my main tank with no livestock. I'm on my 7th day now and things are going good.