can overflow and sump handle 30-40X turnover?

[Serioussnaps]

I have run larger SPS tanks with an abundance of flow. Would like to set up a smaller reef-------55 g that i have sitting barren right now as an SPS only tank. It only has one overflow( I got it for free from a buddy) and i am used to having multiple overflows and holding the high flow(30-40x) was never an issue. Should i put in another overflow or would the current overflow and (12g sump and 10g fuge linked together)hold this massive flow. I dont want to put in another overflow because space is limited as is in a 55g, but i also dont want to have my sump and fuge overflowing all over tarnation either.

=====Suggestions, experiences, ideas and facts would be greatly appreciated

[hahnmeister]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1

The flow doesnt have to come from the overflow... a low flow overflow can benefit skimmer performance as well as lower the electrical use of the pumps needed to produce flow in the tank.

[sjm817]

3 -5X for display-> sump flow.

[Rborgia]

I have a 58 which I am using a Mag 9.5 (950gph). using this pump wide open I was getting a lot of micro bubbles. I tried two different sumps... Once like the Lifereef Compact sumps and another with a 3 baffle bubble trap... neither could stop the Micro bubbles.

In the end, te only thing I could do to stop the bubbles is throttle back the pump about 20% or so... in turn slowing the movement in the sump.. problems solved.

So, high flow through the sump (or sumps) didnt work for me...

Rich

[Serioussnaps]

I will be running 2 sumps on this tank as I normally do. This one has a 15 g sump and a 10 g refugium. The water from the overflow in the back left corner of the tank(this is a drilled overflow not a hang on or some crap) will run to the 15 g sump through carbon and the skimmer to the refugium using a lower rated pump for gph. Then I want to use like a Mag 18/or 24(with 4and a half feet to return will run 1200-1375gph and 1850-2000) respectively) to return the water from the refugium to the main tank. In tank im looking to use a Tunze 6060 or more likely some high rated seios depending on the heat they are going to put out in a 55g with MH lighting to avoid using a chiller on such a small system. --------------Because of the use of two sumps with 2 separate powerheads linking them, I dont have to worry about "microbubbles." My question is with this high flow and strong in tank ph's, is my overflow to the 15 g sump going to be able to hold its own and get the water into the sump fast enough so as not to create an overflow of the main tank?

[Serioussnaps]

Ah i see to get the flow i want for an SPS tank only in such a small tank, I could run some higher rated (gph) ph's in tank such as the tunze's and some stronger seio's and stick to a lower rated Mag for returning the water. Will the returns from my sump and (keep in mind the set up has to return from the sump to the fuge) ultimately the refugium keep up with the water that these main tank pumps will push through the overflow and of course will this SINGLE overflow be able to handle it either way.

[Serioussnaps]

and Rborgia you can use two sumps together and run to return pumps----one from the sump with skimmer to the fuge and then one from the fuge back up to the main tank--------no microbubbles

[Serioussnaps]

Im not concerned about my power bill. I believe the main source of expense in terms of power consumption, energy costs is lighting. Dont make this an issue. Im not trying to save money by using less flow or less pressure on my return pumps because if i wanted to save money i wouldnt be in this hobby to begin with.

[Serioussnaps]

Just talked to one of the only guys at a LFS who i consider to be very knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to our hobby. He said that the width or size of the hole in the back of the tank that the overflow feeds through down to the sump is what will determine whether my overflow and tank with the 2 sumps can handle this massive flow rate.

[Serioussnaps]

Also, skimmer performance is not an issue to me. My skimmer will perform fine under all conditions combined with the diligent maintenance i adhere to.

[zapata41]

you have mentioned that you ahve one overflow but have never told us the size bulkhead that is in the overflow, which is what will dictate how much water you can push through it. I have a 1 " bulkhead on my overflow for my planted tank that can easily push 1000gph through it, the bottom of the tank is drilled to you can push a lot more through it that say a bulkhead which is drilled in the upper back of the tank.

Tim

[Alaskan Reefer]

Well you're answering your own question. If your overflow can handle 30-40X the volume of the tank, then yes it's no problem.

To handle 40X55=2200gph you'd need a 2" drain hole. That's pretty large and you'd be right at the maximum capacity for the hole. I'd probably make it 2.25" minimum.

Then again, I wouldn't want 2200gph going through a 15 gallon sump. You'd have a hell of a time with bubbles in such a wave pool.

[Serioussnaps]

Thank you zapata and Alaskan Reefer for your posts.-----When it comes to reef husbandry and anyting fish related i have a full grasp, but when it comes to plumbing and DIY i am clueless----all my other tanks were drilled with 2 overflows so that i never worried about this topic, just did it and everything after was fine but this presents me with a grey area i have no experience------ The drain hole is located at the back of the tank(not on bottom) on the left side. Doing a half-assed measurement it seems the drain hole is about 1.5", definitely looks/seems and feels with the toothrush marked off next to a ruler to be somewhat larger than an 1", but more like 1.25-1.5" and most likely 1.5"(will measure after i turn the pumps off so i can measure it precisely, but this is the range. Assuming that 1" can handle 1000 gph easily Zapata, wouldnt you think moving 1400-1700 gph with a 1.25-1.5" drain hole(bulkhead is synonomous i guess) could be feasible. 30X 55g would be a turnover of 1650 gph, which falls in this 1400-1700gph range. I think it is feasible, and likely enough flow for Acro/clam tank.
-------To the issue of the 15 g sump AR-------it is more like a 13 g sump where i would house the skimmer, heater, pump carbon.....ect..... but, next to it is a 10 gallon fuge. The water would be skimmed, go out a pump in that sump from the overflow and into the 10g fuge. Once here it will be pumped back to the main tank with a larger pump because of the larger distance between the maintank and fuge as opposed to sump to the fuge.-------Do you think this would still be a bubble sink?
------Remember assuming that i may feasible run 24-30x turnover with the overflow i have would this connected (by a mag ph) sump and fuge be able to handle the large amounts of flow and water circulation even if the overflow can?

[Serioussnaps]

LOL---grammar and spelling errors----not an idiot----just so long as you know what i am saying -----sorry

[Alaskan Reefer]

I know what you're saying, the grammar and spelling doesn't matter.

If the hole is 1.5", what size bulkhead fits in there? The bulkhead's inside diameter will be less than the hole size -- and the inside diameter is the "hole" where water has to flow through. To handle 1000gph (there's a calculator on the home page here at RC), you'd need at least 1.31" of inside diameter, which you're not going to get in a 1.5" hole. A 1.00" bulkhead is supposed to handle 600gph (that's what my Megaflows are and are rated for) so I'm not sure how Zapata is doing it.

So you're thinking of having the drain into the sump, the sump pumping to a fuge, then the fuge pumping the return water? That wouldn't work unless the pumps from sump and fuge pumped exactly the same amount of water. Exactly. One would either dry up or overflow if they weren't. Not practical. I would figure out how much flow you can put through your bulkhead, feed that directly into the sump, have the return pump come only from the same sump, and include a pump in the sump to feed the fuge -- putting the fuge higher than the sump so the overflow from it can just drain back into the sump.

You're talking about a lot of flow here through a very small sump. I don't think you can avoid a lot of turbulence and I don't see why it's practical other than that you don't want to put powerheads in the tank.

I think you need twin overflows to do it like you want to do it, or a single REALLY large drain hole -- but again I don't think either will work well with such a small sump. I'd shoot for around 300gph through the sump / refugium, then just throw a single Tunze stream in the tank to handle all the flow needs.

[Serioussnaps]

Also, if I have to decrease the flow through the overflow/sump/fuge on the return pumps, can i make up for this by using strong ph's in the tank. Will the in tank ph's(seio, tunze) add to the circulation for the acros without pushing the sump, fuge and overflow capabilities to the limit.

[Chappy]

You got it. You really only need 3-5 times turnover in the sump. Use your powerheads for circulation. It doesn't matter if it circulates down the overflow and back up, you need the water movement. Plus you don't want a lot of flow through your fuge anyway.

[zapata41]

- The drain hole is located at the back of the tank(not on bottom).

right there will tell you that your overflow will not handle the flow. i had two 1" bulkheads on the back of my 90 gal and had a QO4000 return pump turned about 50% down to not overpower the bulkheads, i was only getting roughly 400gph through the pair of them after headloss.

so your one overflow might handle 200-300gph if it is a 1" bulkhead, 600 would be pushing it for a 1.5" bulkhead.

now the mega flow overflows can flow 600gph through a 1" bulkhead because they are on the bottom of the tank thus they have the weight of the water (pressure) in the overflow box to help "push" the water. i was getting 1000gph through my 1" bulkhead but it was also drilled on the bottom of the tank and was all 1 1/4 plumbing up to the bulkhead. also the noise from the sump when i was running the 1000gph through it was horrible, and i shut the pump off after about 30min of trying to ignore it and go to sleep since this was a bedroom tank and had a 30g sump.

as mentioned earlier, the two pump thing isnt gonna work, no matter how you adjust them.

yes adding a seio or tunze ph to the tank will increase your tank turnover rate and will not affect the flow through the overflow.

Tim

[zapata41]

on a electricity viewpoint, the watts you will save by running something like a eheim compared to that mag9 for your return pump will power a nice tunze stream and controller.

Tim

[Alaskan Reefer]

What Zapata Said.

[Serioussnaps]

AR you are answering my questions before you even see my posts--hhhaaaahhaaaaa-------i love it-----appreciated

Ok---here we go-----The bulkhead( i know what a bulkhead is exactly now)---The bulkhead doesnt seem to be smaller than the hole at all AR, but according to marine depot(found those that look like mine) the bh is smaller than the hole, so we will move on from here. I called the guy that plumbed this tank(after digging through my buddy), he said he would usually plumb his tank with the 1" bulkhead and the 1.75" hole. This sounds right for a 55g and what i can observe right now. So lets say these values are the absolute, and at best i will be safe in this assumption by not doing to much. Looking at 600GPH, huh AR? Thats only a 10X turnover, which if running acros and clams will have to be addressed somehow.
----Second, AR i am a master at balancing the pump from sump to fuge next to it and fuge up to main tank. On the tank i run now the water level drops only 1/4" every two days, never had a pump run dry.I think i can do this with some pain in the *** tweaking and the experience i have doing before.(its a ***** to get the pumps to match up, but have done it every time before)---had to go out of town plenty of times only to come back 5 or 6 days later to see that the fuge water depth only dropped about an inch, so i think i am safe. I wouldnt do this on a tank larger than a 90 for fear of disaster, but the with approximately 15 g that could go from the tank to the sump and fuge from siphoning of return and the overflow i wouldnt have a flood just water that was sitting in a tank(albeit it, it has never happened over 2 years)----so lets assume this is taken care of and no concern
---Third---the practical use would be to get as much flow possible throughout the whole tank(i like to make it perfect, it gives me piece of mind) So we address other methods of getting circulation necessary to run acros and clams in this durn small 55g tank.(also the skimmer i would run would be rated much higher than 55g tank would need thus could skim efficiently)
----If i can only run lets say 550-700 gph with this configuration of overflow and sump and dont want to put another overflow or larger sump because space is so confined in a 55g-----------Then what would you suggest my plan of action in this confined space be?----I absolutely want ph's in the display and wouldn't have it any other way. Just trying to get everything perfect from startup so i dont have to tinker later and was considering running this config. -------------The extra pumps i have now that i could run would work at 400gph(about 7.5x turnover). I think i would still like to upgrade them to go about 500(9x turnover) gph but may not be worth the money with only 100 gph increase. Seeing as how this wont be enough movement/circulation for the livestock i am seeking then what ph's in tank would be best for this set up.----------Looked at Tunze6060(1600gph), Tunze 6080(2250gph), Seio1100,1500, 2600----What combination do you think will put my circulation, water movement, flow etc... at optimum levels in a 55g. I want to do it right, not get by , but have the SPS thrive and do so in a small 55g tank. Will these ph's cause water to push through the overflow faster or just cause a serious wave like motion in the 55g. Keep in mind i want to keep Acros, clams and maybe some pulsing xenia in the 55g. I dont want to have the in tank powerheads blowing rocks through the front of the 55g.LMAO, that would be some ****.

---Sorry so long winded, but i feel its better than making 20 posts and gives more to brainstorm about.

[Serioussnaps]

And, do you think with the in tank ph's and the weak sump etc. circulation and return that i could keep acros very successfully in these small confines?

[Serioussnaps]

Also, looking at the eheims. Eheim 1262 is 900 GPH and uses 80 watts for 130 bucks. The mag9.5 is pushing 950gph(these are max. values of course) and uses 93 watts for 70 bucks. Easy decision here. The eheim costs almost double for less flow and only 13 less watts. Seems like an easy winner-----mag. 13 Watts is not gonna bother me. The power bill it will be negligible so the fact that i could use a tunze for those extra watts is a moot point. The eheim costs double where i could use the extra money of a mag for that high dollar tunze.

[Serioussnaps]

Do you think with such strong flow in a 55g that the substrate will get thrown around in a frenzy if it is oolitic? With the large powerheads in small confines do you think that the flow will be toooo concentrated on one area of the reef which may cause problems, or do you think the acros could stand up to it?

[zapata41]

well with all that you have said in the prior post here is what i would do.

knowing that you are never gonna get more than 400-500 gph through the bulkhead go with the 400 gph return pump that you have. balance the two pumps as you like since you seem dead set on it. then run a scwd on your return to give you some random flow since all the powerheads you listed are not controllable. either run 4 maxi 1200 on a wakemaker , again nice random current that will be like by the sps more than strong laminar flow, or get a tunze stream 6000 or 6100 on a single controller. if you go the tunze stream route then you can probably nix the scwd.

no amount of powerheads in the display will ever affect the overflows performance so we can stop beating that around.

i would run the eheim but then again i have only ran a mag 5 ( absolutely hate it ) and a QO4000 really really hate it. but if you wanna run a mag 5 and then run a stream then that is good too.

for the seios i would say no. one main reason is, they are big and the 2600 is HUGE.

for the substrate concern, just by the stream and a controller and then be able to dial it back if you have any problems with sand flying all over.

also make sure to allow plenty of room in the sump for power failure and the water that will return from the display to the sumps.

oh and if you dont go with the stream, then go with the maxi jets on a wakemaker. they are small and wont create too much flow from one point source like a seio will and you can get nice random flow from 4 or more of them

Tim