Ammonia Problems

Landshark18 · 05/01/2006, 07:17 PM

I have ammonia problems after my water changes. My readings will be 0 for ammonia and nitrite with trace ammounts of nitrate but after my water changes ammonia spikes and my damsels start gasping. Its getting a lot better now but it still happens. I have a crushed coral bed if that could have anything to do with it. Could anyone tell me what could be happening?

scrmbld33 · 05/01/2006, 07:23 PM

how bigs the tank and how many gallons for the change? are water params for the new salt and the tank matched, ph , temp etc? what else beside the fish are in the tank?

cadams · 05/01/2006, 07:25 PM

what kind of water (RODI, tap, well, etc.) and salt are you using to make your new water with?

are you using a clean bucket for fresh water?

what is the salinity of your tank? of your new water?

temp. of new water?

amount?

what test kit are you using?

I wouldn't suspect the crushed coral to be the cause of any of this.

Landshark18 · 05/01/2006, 07:33 PM

I usually do a 20% change at about 75 degrees with coral life salt and tap water. I've tested the water before for ammonia and nitrates and its free of all that. I wash the bucket out as well as i can. salinity is about 1.023

scrmbld33 · 05/01/2006, 07:40 PM

is the new salt mixed and then changed right away or do you let the new saltwater mix for a day or too, and by testing i meant that the new salt params matched the tanks params before the change

Landshark18 · 05/02/2006, 09:50 AM

I usually mix and change right away. The new salt params are usually not perfect but pretty close to the tanks. I feel like whenever i stir the crushed coral bed up to syphon the bottom ammonia just releases immediately. Could it really have something to do with the salt mix?

Holokai · 05/02/2006, 10:59 AM

Hey buddy,

you usually want to leave newly mixed water sit for a day or two. I usually leave a spare powerhead in the bucket and let it run for about 24 hours.

Waiting makes sure the particulate is all dissolved in the water, and I think it lets some chemicals escape into the air that you don't need/want in the tank.(Don't quote me on that, not sure where I read it)

Also, I'm not sure about crushed coral, but I know with sand bottoms (DSBs, anyhow) you don't want to disturb the bottom. It stirs up anaerobic bacteria and decaying matter that can cause a spike in ammonia. You can get critters to keep sand clean, not sure about crushed coral.

- Chris

Kaiser Tang · 05/02/2006, 11:55 AM

Invest in a RO/DI system. You water is probably not to blame, but if you keep using tap water, you'll have water issues in the future.

IslandCrow · 05/02/2006, 01:09 PM

Try giving this question a shot in the reef chemistry forum. I know what you're saying sounds pretty strange to me. If you've checked your newly mixed saltwater, and it has no detectable ammonia, that probably isn't your problem. It seems like stirring up your CC may cause a nitrate spike, but probably not ammonia (though I could very well be wrong on that). As far as letting your mixed saltwater aerate longer, though I agree that is a very good idea, it doesn't seem like that should cause ammonia problems if you don't. From what I understand, the main reason is that the salt forces a good deal of the O2 out of the water, so you need to give it time to reoxgenate and stabilize. Anyway, that's my really long way to say. . .Wow, that's weird.

bertoni · 05/02/2006, 02:26 PM

If the crushed coral is dirty enough, then I can see that stirring it could cause problems. I do agree that aerating the saltwater for a few hours should be a good idea, though. That gives the salt time to reach equilibrium with the air, which is usually a CO2 issue, not oxygen, though.

IvyInCanada · 05/02/2006, 02:58 PM

Just a thought, but are you adding a dechlorinator/dechloraminator to the water? My tap water tests fine, then shows ammonia after I add stuff to get rid of the chloramine.

hth
ivy

Landshark18 · 05/02/2006, 03:12 PM

I add stress coat/ammo lock to my tap water. I washed the crushed coral many times through before i added it but it still is a little dirty. Couldd that house ammonia causing agents?

Beverly · 05/02/2006, 04:45 PM

The problem may be with what your tapwater is treated with. If it is treated with chlorine only, and tests of tapwater show no ammonia, I would surmise tapwater is not the problem.

However, many municipalities now treat their water with chloramine, which is a compound of chlorine and ammonia. Chloramine lasts longer as a disinfectant of tapwater, killing bacteria that can cause illnesses, than chlorine. Chlorine has a tendancy to evaporate quickly, resulting in it being less effective at killing bacteria over the long term.

Also, some test kits will not show ammonia present if chloramine is used in tapwater. I use an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia kit that shows we have about 1 ppm ammonia in our tapwater because of the chloramine treatment.

For many years, we've used a simple 50 gpd RODI unit, but recently tested the water coming out and it contains about .25 ppm ammonia. After finding this out, and asking around a bit, we've upgraded our RODI unit to include two granulated carbon filters.

The upgraded unit is configured for the water to go into a 1 micron sediment filter, an extruded carbon filter (both of which are included in RO and RODI units), two granulated carbon filters, the RO membrane, then, finally, the DI resin bed. We just got the upgrade over the weekend and are still getting it fine tuned. Haven't had a chance to test for ammonia yet, but the water coming out of the new unit smells better already.

Anyway, what you need to do is contact your local water provider and find out if chlorine or chloramine is used. Talk to the people in the lab at the treatment plant for the most accurate answer. Most people at the water department here, except for the lab folks, always tell us that our water is treated with chlorine. Dumb people, but that's the way it is

Landshark18 · 05/02/2006, 11:44 PM

Thanks Beverly! I'll call tomorrow. I got some new stress coat as a temporary solution. The fish seem to have already changed back to normal a bit.

05/01/2006, 07:17 PM	#1
Landshark18 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 85	Ammonia Problems I have ammonia problems after my water changes. My readings will be 0 for ammonia and nitrite with trace ammounts of nitrate but after my water changes ammonia spikes and my damsels start gasping. Its getting a lot better now but it still happens. I have a crushed coral bed if that could have anything to do with it. Could anyone tell me what could be happening?

05/01/2006, 07:23 PM	#2
scrmbld33 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: south jersey 08050 Posts: 2,394	how bigs the tank and how many gallons for the change? are water params for the new salt and the tank matched, ph , temp etc? what else beside the fish are in the tank? __________________ a left over shrimp shedding is not "a sicilian message meaning luca brasi sleeps with the fishes" fish are friends, not food Current Tank Info: 90gal salt, 2 250mh 14k hamiltons 2 110 actinic, 127lbs LR,50lbs tonga 70lbs indonesia 7lbs tonga branch asm g3

05/01/2006, 07:40 PM	#5
scrmbld33 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: south jersey 08050 Posts: 2,394	is the new salt mixed and then changed right away or do you let the new saltwater mix for a day or too, and by testing i meant that the new salt params matched the tanks params before the change __________________ a left over shrimp shedding is not "a sicilian message meaning luca brasi sleeps with the fishes" fish are friends, not food Current Tank Info: 90gal salt, 2 250mh 14k hamiltons 2 110 actinic, 127lbs LR,50lbs tonga 70lbs indonesia 7lbs tonga branch asm g3

05/02/2006, 10:59 AM	#7
Holokai DIY Lite Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 666	Hey buddy, you usually want to leave newly mixed water sit for a day or two. I usually leave a spare powerhead in the bucket and let it run for about 24 hours. Waiting makes sure the particulate is all dissolved in the water, and I think it lets some chemicals escape into the air that you don't need/want in the tank.(Don't quote me on that, not sure where I read it) Also, I'm not sure about crushed coral, but I know with sand bottoms (DSBs, anyhow) you don't want to disturb the bottom. It stirs up anaerobic bacteria and decaying matter that can cause a spike in ammonia. You can get critters to keep sand clean, not sure about crushed coral. - Chris __________________ The weather is here, wish you were beautiful...

05/02/2006, 11:55 AM	#8
Kaiser Tang Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 1,314	Invest in a RO/DI system. You water is probably not to blame, but if you keep using tap water, you'll have water issues in the future. __________________ "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." Albert Einstein Current Tank Info: Marineland 150 XH Reef w/ 55 AGA Sump, Oceans Motions Super Squirt, Ecotech Marine Vortech, Current Prime 1/3 hp Chiller, 200 lbs. LR, 175 lbs. LS, 800 watts PFO MH and 440 watts IceCap VHO. Softies, LPS, and Clams!

05/01/2006, 07:25 PM	#3
cadams Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 702	what kind of water (RODI, tap, well, etc.) and salt are you using to make your new water with? are you using a clean bucket for fresh water? what is the salinity of your tank? of your new water? temp. of new water? amount? what test kit are you using? I wouldn't suspect the crushed coral to be the cause of any of this.

05/01/2006, 07:33 PM	#4
Landshark18 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 85	I usually do a 20% change at about 75 degrees with coral life salt and tap water. I've tested the water before for ammonia and nitrates and its free of all that. I wash the bucket out as well as i can. salinity is about 1.023

05/02/2006, 09:50 AM	#6
Landshark18 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 85	I usually mix and change right away. The new salt params are usually not perfect but pretty close to the tanks. I feel like whenever i stir the crushed coral bed up to syphon the bottom ammonia just releases immediately. Could it really have something to do with the salt mix?

05/02/2006, 01:09 PM	#9
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	Try giving this question a shot in the reef chemistry forum. I know what you're saying sounds pretty strange to me. If you've checked your newly mixed saltwater, and it has no detectable ammonia, that probably isn't your problem. It seems like stirring up your CC may cause a nitrate spike, but probably not ammonia (though I could very well be wrong on that). As far as letting your mixed saltwater aerate longer, though I agree that is a very good idea, it doesn't seem like that should cause ammonia problems if you don't. From what I understand, the main reason is that the salt forces a good deal of the O2 out of the water, so you need to give it time to reoxgenate and stabilize. Anyway, that's my really long way to say. . .Wow, that's weird. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

05/02/2006, 02:26 PM	#10
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	If the crushed coral is dirty enough, then I can see that stirring it could cause problems. I do agree that aerating the saltwater for a few hours should be a good idea, though. That gives the salt time to reach equilibrium with the air, which is usually a CO2 issue, not oxygen, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/02/2006, 02:58 PM	#11
IvyInCanada Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada Posts: 40	Just a thought, but are you adding a dechlorinator/dechloraminator to the water? My tap water tests fine, then shows ammonia after I add stuff to get rid of the chloramine. hth ivy __________________ 33g reef in progress. Currently doing algae succession. Anyone want some diatoms?

05/02/2006, 03:12 PM	#12
Landshark18 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 85	I add stress coat/ammo lock to my tap water. I washed the crushed coral many times through before i added it but it still is a little dirty. Couldd that house ammonia causing agents?

05/02/2006, 04:45 PM	#13
Beverly Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Edmonton AB Canada Posts: 745	The problem may be with what your tapwater is treated with. If it is treated with chlorine only, and tests of tapwater show no ammonia, I would surmise tapwater is not the problem. However, many municipalities now treat their water with chloramine, which is a compound of chlorine and ammonia. Chloramine lasts longer as a disinfectant of tapwater, killing bacteria that can cause illnesses, than chlorine. Chlorine has a tendancy to evaporate quickly, resulting in it being less effective at killing bacteria over the long term. Also, some test kits will not show ammonia present if chloramine is used in tapwater. I use an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia kit that shows we have about 1 ppm ammonia in our tapwater because of the chloramine treatment. For many years, we've used a simple 50 gpd RODI unit, but recently tested the water coming out and it contains about .25 ppm ammonia. After finding this out, and asking around a bit, we've upgraded our RODI unit to include two granulated carbon filters. The upgraded unit is configured for the water to go into a 1 micron sediment filter, an extruded carbon filter (both of which are included in RO and RODI units), two granulated carbon filters, the RO membrane, then, finally, the DI resin bed. We just got the upgrade over the weekend and are still getting it fine tuned. Haven't had a chance to test for ammonia yet, but the water coming out of the new unit smells better already. Anyway, what you need to do is contact your local water provider and find out if chlorine or chloramine is used. Talk to the people in the lab at the treatment plant for the most accurate answer. Most people at the water department here, except for the lab folks, always tell us that our water is treated with chlorine. Dumb people, but that's the way it is __________________ Beverly ___ A stitch in time would have confused Einstein. -- author unknown Current Tank Info: 120g mixed soft, LPS, SPS and BTA reef

05/02/2006, 11:44 PM	#14
Landshark18 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 85	Thanks Beverly! I'll call tomorrow. I got some new stress coat as a temporary solution. The fish seem to have already changed back to normal a bit.