Angel & Tang with Ick for a month

[john f]

Thanks Lori,
You're right.
I knew there was a reason we guys need women around

[dragon0121]

I also would like to thank TerryB and JohnF for the above discussion. The only way for people to keep Ich out of their tanks is if they UNDERSTAND the creature and its life cycle.

I will try to summerize something that I have seen TerryB say for over the last year, and it seems to get missed by people reading at times. Cryptocaryon Irritans is an OBLIGATE PATHOGEN and scientific research has PROVEN that it will not survive without a host fish. (FACT, not an arguable opinion as far as science is concerned at this time) That means if you remove all of your fish from your tank for 6 months the TANK WILL NOT HAVE ICH. And this is were people need to quit saying a tank always has Ich, becasue it has already been proven it doesn't. The fish in the tank may have Ich but the tank doesn't (remove fish per above). If you can 100% remove Ich from ALL FISH added to your tank through a quarentine/hypo/medication approach starting with the first thru the last, then the FISH will not introduce Ich into your tank. And barring any other import path for the pathogen your TANK will not have Ich, neither will the FISH!

I believe TerryB is implying that in his future article he may expose alternative methods for Cryptocaryan Irritans to be introduced into your tank. Offhand I would think that introduction of LIVE SAND could be another .

JohnF has said he has a tank that after months and months of APPARENTLY Ich free fish, the occupants again show Ich. To me at least, it is apparent that the Cryptocaryon Irritans in JohnF's tank have a HOST at all times, the fish. IMO this is what TerryB has pointed out over and over to everybody he helps. If you want to fix the problem 100% gauranteed, you will have to remove the fish for longer than the life cycle of the pathogen, AND successfully remove 100% of the Ich from the fish before reintroducing. GOOD LUCK!!!

JohnF appears to want an absolute cure from TerryB, IN TANK. I think it's obvious there is no such thing at this time. But following the feed well, stress free environment scenario, will give the fish the best chance to keep the pathogen at a survivable and UNNOTICEABLE level (may still be there) .

The argument that because you are an expert on a pathogen, disease, etc. means you obviously should be able to have a cure for it, is nonsensical. We don't have cures for cancer, AIDS, diabetes, color blindness, the COMMON FRICKIN' COLD. That doesn't exclude millions of doctors worldwide from being experts in their fields, nor should we ignore their advice! Personally, I consider TerryB one of the foremost experts on this pathogen and fish stress, that posts on these boards and is available to ALL of us.

Keep the good info comin' this way guys and gals! There are a lot of us out here just soakin' it up!!!!!

[ejloomis]

I am also glad to see this discussion on the Crypt. parasite lifecycle. In answer to a question above, it does seem to me that there potential differences in tank management depending upon the life-cycle and survivability of the Ick parasite. I, for example, still use a UV sterilizer. But I know that UV is falling out of favor, and perhaps for good reason; the problem being, as I understand it, that UV may kill invertebrate nutrients in the water.

So when, if ever, can I turn off my UV if I still want to use it to kill possible Ick parasites after new additions to the tank? (I realize that it is not absolutely certain that UV does even this, but UV seems to me a relatively well-established safeguard. I for one, have not had parasite problems after adding UV, whereas I did have them before). If the life-cycle of the parasite is finished at 6 weeks, then I can turn off the UV 6 weeks after any new addition, and avoid other possibly harmful effects of the sterilizer. But if it can remain present but undetected indefinitely, then a constant use of UV might be required to prevent its spread.

Those who have reported Ick outbreaks well after 6 weeks from the last addition to the tank, is it certain that there was nothing else added that could plausibly have carried the parasite? Not even a bit of liverock? If so, then the low-level infection hypothesis seems rather probable.

[Bubafat]

I know that this is just shot in the dark, anedotle evidence but i've found it works well to prevent and get rid of ick. It's a very efficient and easy way to get rid and keep it away, you might just call it a miracle cure. Think of it this way, what is one this that we don't have in our tank that tangs and any other fish have in the wild (other then millions of gallons of water)?

A VERY diverse food source. "But that would be very expensive," you say. Well, yes it may be but is it worth the anguish, and the price of new fish every couple months? Basically, i go to 3 places to find food, Cub foods, my LFS, and my local co-op. Go to cub, and buy say a half pound of every single thing they have (salt water foods only, i've HEARD, not a fact, that fish can digest it better), go home, and cut it up into many, many very small pieces. Yes, it makes your kitchen REEK for a couple hours afterward. I then go to my LFS, and buy EVERY frozen food type they have (spend $50 bucks or so). Then i go to my local co-op, buy nori and many different greens (i like co-ops for that because i don't want to take a chance with pesticides or other bad things). I par boil the greens, then freezed them to break up the cellular walls so that my tang can digest it better.

So what do i have for food now:

Fresh Frozen shrimp
Frozen Bay and Ocean Scalops
Frozen Muscles
Frozen Clams
Frozen Blue Point Oysters
Frozen Lobster (yes i spoil them)
Frozen Macril
and a couple of other frozen fish
Nori
Seaweed Selects (red, green and purple)
Greens
Formula 1&2
Frozen Brine, blood worms, and other frozen foods.

I have my own little 1.5 Cu m. Fridge that i turned into a freezer dedicated to the foods.

Yes, you might call me extremely excessive, but would you like to live on only 3 or 4 different food types for your entire life, you'd die from malnutrition.

Well, i'm done ranting now

Matt

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Have fun and happy reefing. "The goal in life is to reach pure happieness." Aristotle

[JohnL]

Tagged for the archives

[Larry M]

Lori said it better than I could have, or possibly tried to. All I ask is people treat each other with some respect and at least attempt to keep the discussion clean. I would also like to see all parties stay to post another day.

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Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef

[Terry B]

I have to agree that diet, good water quality and a stress free environment are all things we should strive for. However, no amount of stress can cause Ich if the parasite is not present in the system.

Ejloomis,
Ultraviolet sterilizers can be used to help control Ich if it is powerful enough and the water flow to the unit is correct. It would be very difficult for UV light to eliminate Ich from the system. Here is a snippet from an article that I wrote. “The majority of mature theronts excyst (emerge) from tomonts during darkness (Burgess and Matthews, 1994b). The same holds true for trophonts exiting the host. This may be interpreted as a part of the parasite’s strategy for survival. Most reef fish are less active at night and stay close to the substrate and coral making them easier targets. Even though only 5 to 20 percent of theronts successfully infect a host, in the confines of an aquarium this can mean a ten-fold increase in parasites on the fish in a six to eight day period.� As you can see the parasites don't have to go very far to get to the fish. This means that many of them will not be swimming through the water enough to be caught by the UV light.

Dragon0121,
Thank you for your intelligent post. You are right that an Ich free tank + clean fish = no Ich in the system. You are correct that live sand can be a source of infection. Removing the fish for four to six weeks from the system and cleaning the fish of infection before returning them is the only sure way of eliminating this pest. Of course this is much easier if you take steps to prevent introducing the parasite into your system from the beginning. Your comments about experts was excellent and makes perfect sense, thanks again.

JohnF,
My position is correct not just because I say so, but because I have the scientific evidence to back it up. I only mentioned my years of experience because you tried to validate your position by saying you have ten years of experience.
How do you eliminate Ich from your 135-gallon aquarium? You want absolutes but so far you reject the only things that actually work. Are you looking for real answers or just something that you approve of?
If you really want get rid of the pest and you are convinced is in your system there's only one absolute way to do this and you won't like it. I had Ich in a reef system before and I know what a pain it is to catch the fish and remove them. I have been there and done that. I had to take most of my live rock out and put it in large plastic barrels with saltwater so I could catch all the fish. I then had to stack the live rock back in the tank. Then I had to keep all the fish in a separate tank for four weeks to or more before returning them. None of this was fun! All the more reason to prevent such a scenario with quarantine and other preventive measures!
I can tell you what I would probably do if it were my tank. I would probably see how far feeding garlic to the fish would get me. If you had trouble using garlic maybe you didn't do it correctly. I think it's going to be difficult to completely eliminate Ich from the system by feeding the fish garlic, but the only alternative is to tear all the out of tank and catch the fish. To be as safe as possible you have to eliminate the parasite from the system, add only fish that have been treated and cleaned of infection, and then take every precaution to prevent reintroducing Ich back into the system. Quarantining all-new (fish)additions in hyposalinity is worth serious consideration. Reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and their surroundings environment is a proven way of reducing the effects of stressors. I have extensively studied many scientific journals and books on stress in fish. It is my opinion that hyposalinity causes little if any stress in the vast majority of bony reef fish. As a matter of fact, reducing the salinity helps to lessen the effects of stress. This is due in part to the fact that hydromineral disturbance is inherit to stress in fish. Reducing the salinity in turn makes it easier for fish to recover normal homeostasis quicker.
Terry B

[Snail]

TerryB: Out of all your scientific journals has any scientist researched the long term effects of copper or hyposalinity on fish?

From what I've been able to find they have only researched how to kill Cryptocaryon irritans but no one has done a long term study on either of these treatments to see what happens to the fish months-years down the road.


-Snail

[Larry M]

Thread closed.

[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 09-18-2000).]