The Tank of Death

[Larry M]

Braveheart--I was going to archive this thread, but thought I would ask you how things are going first.


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Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef

[BraveHeart]

Hi Larry,

Sigh…

I wish I could report a success story that would make everyone warm and fuzzy, but I’m having a little trouble finding silver linings in the clouds as of late. I try not to spend too much time peering into the root of my frustrations – it just simply depresses me.

I posted a thread on December 30th ( http://www.reefcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001042.html ) about the progress made at that time on the plan of recovery I had outlined for my tank. All seemed to be going well, save the death of a bucket full of spaghetti worms introduced with the new live sand, and so on January 4th I fetched my plug of Zoanthids from its vacation at the Hilton. Unfortunately, the poor thing clamped down within a couple of days and hasn’t opened since. I’m relatively certain that water quality is to blame, but I have no idea what parameter is out of kilter or what to do about it. This mystery has been one of the constants for several months, now.

Another mystery involves the death of all herbivorous snails that I introduce to the tank. The last of my batch of 20 purchased in October has now expired. Additionally, I added 3 more Astrea and 2 Trochus on the 4th and they’re either very well hidden, or they too have moved on to snail heaven. And yes, I took great pains to acclimate them. Interestingly, many of my Nassarius snails seem to be doing just fine. I’m wondering if the strain of micro algae I’m raising is either a) toxic to, or b) unpalatable to snails (e.g., they are starving).

There are two things that do seem to be doing relatively well in the tank – all the crustaceans (Sally Lightfoot, Pistol Shrimp, Emerald Crabs, and hermits) and algae. No, not my Calerpa. That’s fading away. Just the olive-green fuzzy crap. I have no idea what kind, but I’m guessing that at least part of it is diatom based. Some of this phlegm is approaching 2 inches in length where sufficient light is available. Oh, and BTW, I’ve been running with just 2 NO bulbs for over two weeks now – my IceCap 660 has not returned from repair, yet. I’m afraid that when I do get them back on, I’ll have the algae bloom to end all algae blooms. The overall theme of my tank is now dingy brown – not purple. It’s pretty hard to keep a stiff upper lip.

Finally, its hard to be certain because I haven’t attempted any official critter counts, but the infauna in the sand bed appears to be diminishing again. I can’t imagine how this could be, as I believe that I’m feeding copious amounts to the system. So much, in fact, that my hermits are so fat and lazy that they don’t bother to move around the tank. They just seem to sit on the sand bed and wait for the next main course. I turn off all the pumps for an hour or more when I feed, and still see a lot of food down in the sump the next morning.

I think I remember Dr. Ron saying something to the effect of "nothing happens quickly in this hobby, except death". I’ve sworn patience and will make no more dramatic moves until summer. It is really difficult for me to tell which direction my tank is headed – toward or further away from equilibrium -- because everything moves very slowly. Maybe that’s the silver lining. As bad as I think it looks, and as much as I want it to be as beautiful as what I see posted here, there has been no crash.

Bryan

[Larry M]

Sorry to hear about your continued troubles. That first year can be a real pain. Hopefully things will improve.

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Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef

[tdwyatt]

Bryan, that is really discouraging to have all this going on for so long, maybe it is time to think of the unusual stuff, if the sinple answers don't work. I don't know about where you live, but here the water department will test your water if you have a well and tell you exactly what you have in the sample. Maybe it is time to test the water from the tank for EVERYTHING... Prolly won't hurt to send a sample of your water that you add to your saltmix/kalk powder, too. Man, I hope this helps you out some... Good luck has got to happen soon!

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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato

[fishpoo]

sorry to hear all this. lets look at it one step at a time. yanking the plenum hurt the tank. gray areas in sand not good. first i would have a few containers around and a lot of time. fill the containers with your tank water and fresh mix and remove all the lr and coral and fish. get the sand out of there! get rid of the remaining water and start fresh. i use a plenum but you don't have too. 4" of sand on the bottom of the tank will give you the benefits. 3" of aragonite or whatever and 1" live sand. put your rocks back in, water pumps for water movement, skimmer and water and you're ready to go. keep the skimmer going and use a sump or hangon filter for activated carbon. that's it. i believe your bio filter went out of whack for what reason i don't know. but don't give up. it just takes time. the fact that polyfilter turned green is an indication the ammonia is there and the biofilter is not working properly. when you yank a plenum and then use the same sand, many different microbes are in there. some need a lot of oxygen and some can live on very little. those that live on very little are deep in the sand bed. you brought those up when you removed the plenum (gray spots).



[This message has been edited by fishpoo (edited 01-27-2000).]

[FishWish]

Braveheart, Just curious here, what is your current Sal. level and how have you verified it? plastic hydrometer, refractometer or what?. This is an often overlooked parameter which escapes our attention.
I sincerely doubt the Hydrogen sulfide theory here as your condition has continued for to long a period of time.hang in there Brother..we're all here for ya...David

[tdwyatt]

btw, if you suspect your hydrometer (swing orm or glass hrdrometer type) test distilled water with it. whatever difference you read from 1.000 will be consistant throughout the scale, use this as a correction factor in determining your sg/salinity.

[rshimek]

Hi Bryan,

You know in my original discussion with Kim about your tank, I suspected that something had poisoned it and the live rock and that there was residual poison in the system. I keep defaulting back to that thought. I am beginning to be convinced that either your tank, your live rock or maybe your house is contaminated. The animals and that are surviving are the hardiest of the hardy. Everything especially sensitive to poisons is dying.

Your system should be well on the way to recovery now. Discount the comments about yanking plenums etc. These systems are normally very resilient and recover rapidly - if they can. The color changes in the polyfilter are interesting, but don't necessarily imply ammonia - just that there is a some sort of contaminant.

At this stage, if I were you, I would probably throw up my hands in disgust, and...basically nuke the tank.

It appears you have a choice, you may keep watching it. I would cut back a bit on the food, seeing some the next morning in the sump is not too good. But basically watch and wait. Give it about a month, if nothing gets better - then maybe it WON'T get better, and it is time to cut your losses.

If it starts to get better, then all is well.

If not, ditch the live rock. Clean all materials out of the tank, and decontaminate it.

The following procedure was used in a bioassay lab I once supervised, and it WILL remove all toxic contamination. It is dangerous, but only mildly so.

Move the tank outside or to a well ventilated room. A car port or covered deck is best.

Put a plastic tarp down, spills are dangerous. Wear old clothes. Lock up wife, kids and pets. Invite in-laws over to help.

Wash the tank well with normal fresh water. At this stage you can even soap it down good (yes! I know, contrary to all dogma).
Then fill the tank with muriatic acid at 1:5 dilution (remember add acid TO water, NEVER the other way around). By 1:5 dilution, I mean 1 gallon of conc. muriatic (from hardware or pool supply stores ) to fresh water. After the tank is full (to the brim). Drop in a couple of powerful powerheads (the acid bath won't hurt them) and let 'em rip. Let them go for about 4 hours.

Neutralize the acid - use baking soda - it may take a lot 20 lbs or so.... Keep the power heads going. Drain the tank. After neutralization it is full of carbonated salty water and is safe for all septic or sewage systems.

Rinse the tank thorougly and complete (keep the power heads ripping), 10 (really) times. Use fresh water. DI is best but tap will do. NO soap.

At this point, the tank is clean of mineral contamination (metals, etc., too, but may yet have nasty organics in it).

Get a few clean cloths, and using acetone, (don't smoke unless you want a very brief exciting experience) and wipe down the entire inside of the tank. Wear a respirator if necessary. Be especially careful to get the seams. Let the tank dry.

Now fill the tank with bleach and water, 1:5 again. Drop in the power heads and let them rip. Let 'em go for about 2 hours. At the end of this time, neutralize the bleach with a lot of dechlorinizer, and empty it.

Rinse 10 times.

At the end of the 10th rinse (don't skimp), your tank will be clean of organic and metal contaminations unless they are coming in with your tap water.

Go have a few beers...

Re- set up the tank over the next few days - with new live rock.

Maybe this is good advice, maybe not. But it will assure you that all contaminants are out of the system.

Cheers, Ron

[goby]

hey,

I just skimmed over most of this, so forgive me if I am redundant, but could it possibly be an oxygen thing? I am curiuos... would you try something for me?

Take a sample of your water, and test it for ph...write it down, now take that water OUTSIDE and airrate it for a while with a small airpump/airstone. Retest it.. what is the ph? write it down.. now bring the water back in the house and next to the tank, and airrate, retest it, write it down...

I would be really interested in knowing why you seem to have this pH problem and that it is possibly caused my lack of oxygen.. you say that it is in your basement...arent they all solid concrete block? there is basically no natural airflow down there is there? does it have ventilation? even though your tank top is not covered, and you are churning the water with your pumps, you may just not have the oxygen necessary to keep these things going... (that would possibly explain the rapid increase in your hydrogen sulfide in the sand bed from lack of oxygen)

hope it helps, and sorry that you are having such problems look on the bright side, when you lick this problem, there will be just about nothing that you cannot defeat in your reef

g
o
b
y


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The quest ( and the questions) continues...
www.iag.net/~vigg

[Steve Richardson]

This looks like a tough one.
I latched onto something you said earlier:

"I use RO Water"
...
"major" water change, I'm talking 40 or 50 gallons. I've probably averaged at least one of these per month for the last 8 months"
...
"No positive effects -- just an ensuing algae bloom"

You have a bad RO membrane that is letting something like iron through? Also, is this straight RO water or do you have a DI cartridge too?

also...do your 'ensuing' algea blooms always seem to follow the large water change? (again, thats why I say possibly iron.. it will feed algea, and kill snails. Even rusty impeller shafts)

shot in the dark...

-Steve




[This message has been edited by Steve Richardson (edited 01-27-2000).]

[Snailman]

Sorry to hear about all of your problems. I know a fellow that had a tank that went a lot like this and he had his water tested and it turned out that it had pesticides in it. His home and well were on the edge of a fruit orchard and all the stuff that they had sprayed over the years had leached into the water. I am not sugesting that you have this problem. I am just trying to show how bizare a problem like this can be. You have to be a real detective and check everything under the sun. You said that you had an open top on your tank. Do you spray anything in the area of the tank like Windex, air freashiner, bug spray, floor wax, hair spray, Lysol, bug bomb, Pam or anything else that I did not think of. Good luck and I hope that I sparked something that will help.

[Heinrich]

I agree with Ron,
You might be encountering what Martin Moe described as Toxic Tank Syndrome.
I've only encountered it three times in my life. Once in the store and twice in other peoples tanks. Thats in 8+ years. Three working in a LFS and 1.5 having my own maintenance company. This is super rare. Something in the range of one in 20,000 or less. My thoughts on the matter are this. There is some type of bacteria or virus that has somehow managed to really establish itself well in your system. Especially since you keep fairly nutrient poor conditions to the extent of starving your tank. When you got the LS I imagine there was a large amount of dieoff because of lack of food. There is probably a strong coating of phosphorus on the sandgrains from the plenumn and then a good deal of dead matter. Simply the bacteria or whatever it is, is producing some sort of toxin. Or is itself toxic when ingested or inhaled by organisms. That's the general danger with relying too much on bacteria for nutrient cycling.
If I were you I would ask a fellow aquarist or even the aquarium club if you can lend a UV. If it is just bacteria then this might help. But most likely you will need to do a complete tank teardown. This phenomenon has been only observed by me when people either added rock or LS. Two of the cases and the one in the store the Livesand was the prebagged stuff.
Before you get the tank torn down I would get up the lighting and then add some more types of Caulerpa and other algaes. Tehy can help compete for the organics in the system. I would also do one complete waterchange and remove the clown and any organisms. This way the potentially freefloating organism that might have chemical compounds to prevent the establishment of baallance in your system will have the same starting chance as other life. Strong light and more food will certenly help give the other organisms a chance to also establish themselves and compete with the troubler.
Remove the carbon sincce running carbon 24/7 really destroys caulerpa and other algaes, by taking away some types of nutrients. Also use tap water, with dechlorinator. There have been reports of RO/DI units that developed toxic or dangerous bacterial colonies. Although I'm not sure it would be a problem. By using the tapwater that seems fine for other reefers, you add some extra nutrients but this would be good for algaes such as caulerpa to establish. Also limit protein skimming to at night. This way the algaes can start taking up whatever nutrients there are. I might get some nice LR from a LFS with lots of algae to give the system another boost of life and then feed. Yes you might get an algaebloom, but you can remove that and other higher species will slowly establish. I feed about 1.25oz of dryweight of food to my system a day. This is a 110 with 40g sump and two 50G refugia. That's much for most people but more food will ensure biodiversity much more likely. After you get the lights borrow a UV and get some algae.
From my experiences what your describing is similar to the RTN infections that not only infect corals but then fish and inverts and even humans, possibly.
Hope this helps. Good look. Sometimes you just need to start up anew. If you use Rons method of complete sterilization don't forget to also really clean all the equipment and replace the tubing, etc.
93! Heinrich

[Staceon]

More questions:

Do you spray anything in the room? Do you have any pets? Do you have children near the tank? How do you clean the outside of the glass? What is the sump made out of? How long did the previous owner use the live rock?

[BraveHeart]

Thanks everyone. Here's my responses to your thoughts and recommendations.

Tom: I use Boise city water. I know this water source works for other reefs in the area, including all those at GARF. If I've had bad water, it was probably back in Pocatello during the first 6 months of the tank's life.

David: I just use a cheap, plastic hydrometer. But, it has been cross-checked against a refractometer.

goby: My basement has regular, painted walls, carpet, and windows. It's heated with the same forced air system that supplies the upstairs. We spend more time down in our family room than any other room in the house. The tank sets in the game room, next to our pool table. It is a basement, but it's no dungeon. I'm a little skeptical about your oxygen theory. With my skimmer and heavy circulation, the thousands of "micro" air bubbles in the water column are actually a little distracting. Even so, I'll perform your proposed experiment and let you know how it turns out.

Staceon: Answers in the order of your questions: No, Yes (a small terrier), sometimes (are kids toxic to reefs?), with a clean cloth and tap water, acrylic, 3 years, Yes (every two or three weeks), Yes (at least the bottle says "Black Diamond Premium Activated Carbon"), Yes.

Steve: I've used four different sources of water (tapwater, purchased RO, purchased DI, and since Thanksgiving, my own RO) in two different cities that are 250 miles apart. The tank's problems have been relatively constant through these variable water sources. Algae blooms have not correlated to water changes.

Heinrich: Sounds like what you are describing is pretty exotic. I doubt that my situation is this special. I suspect that Mr. Dummy here screwed up and introduced a heavy metal or toxin months ago -- probably in the water where I used to live.

Dr. Ron,

Well, I was afraid that this decision was drawing near. In fact, I proposed a "do over" to Kim in early December. He talked me into another remedial attempt. I suspected that it was a long shot, but didn’t feel that I had much to lose by trying.

I'm going to try and stall for awhile and keep the tank going. It's not that I think that things might turn around. I would just rather work on this when spring warms things up a bit. In the meantime, I'll take your advice and drink lots of beer.

Thanks for all your help,
Bryan

[Staceon]

A couple more: you said you use carbon, are you still and are you changing it? Are you sure it is carbon?

[Staceon]

Ok I came up with another one. Is the tank grounded?

Sorry for all the questions, but there has to be a solution.

[goby]

Bryan,

I did not mean to suggest that your house was a dungeon!! quite the contrary, it has a reef, how could it be There are several people that post bot here and at AL that have had this problem with their reefs. Some of them even have their tanks in the living room. It seems that some houses are just built very "tightly". The lack of oxygen in the air that you breath is not going to kill you, and things will be fine for you forever, it's the tank, however, that suffers. I am not saying that this is your problem, just something to check into. Anyways, the bubbles in your skimmer, etc, are just air bubbles. this is not to say that they are super saturated with oxygen. The only way to ensure that would be to use an oxygen bottle and to dose it straight into the tank. Besides, it is a quick and easy test that might end up being your answer...

Just trying to help!

g
o
b
y


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The quest ( and the questions) continues...
www.iag.net/~vigg

[Staceon]

The reason I asked about children is because they have been known to put things into a tank, for example pennies.

One last thing, could there be anything toxic on your hands or arms when you put them into the tank?

[Larry M]

geez, there's a thought. What a bummer--tear down a tank and find a penny stash in one corner.

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Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef

[BraveHeart]

goby,

I performed your pH experiment during the lunch hour today. The results were:

pH Inside : 7.98
pH aerated outside : 7.98
pH aerated inside : 8.00

Staceon & Larry,

You're right. It would be tragically ironic to find that a 1 cent mistake ended up causing several hundred dollars worth of damage and many months of wasted effort. My LFS actually proposed the "penny theory" some time back. Short of tearing the tank completely down and sifting the sand bed (which I'll probably end up doing anyway) I don't know of any way to determine whether this could be the root of my problems.

In reality, I doubt that I will ever know what caused this failure.

Bryan

[Joez]

I think to qualify as a dungeon, it must be damp and contain women in chains.

I think you'll wind up tearing it down and starting over. If I were faced with your situation, I would do one of these things:

1. Tear down and start completely over. Problem is, I don't know if there is something in the tank material (acrylic/glass) that is harboring poison. I saw a description about super-cleaning the tank; I would just buy another if I couldn't eliminate the impregnated poison possibility. I'm not saying that's what you should do, I'm saying that's one of the things I'd think of doing.

2. Give it a little more time, but while living through this probationary period, I'd start a completely separate, new 20g tank. Go through all the setup and satisfy myself that it is only the 75 that is sick. Gain a little experience and confidence.

3. Throw in the towel completely. This solution bugs me though because I'd never know what went wrong or how successful I could have been.

My two cents.

[ClearWater]

If only patience was required then Braveheart you more than qualify.

Are you sure the carbon you are using is phosphate free? Please double check.

Good luck.

[downdeep]

i have heard of poly filters being contaminated. is the poly your using old? have you got any new stuff?