Have ICH looky here!!!!!

[pavehawk]

Why can't you do the hyposalinity method in you main tank? I can see tiny little white critters free swimming in it. Will they die off when I remove my fish or will they live on my starfish (X2)? I just don't want to treat my two fish that have ick and have it return when I put them back in. Its an 8 gallon tank with no coral.

[WaterKeeper]

You must have really good eyes.

You can't see the ich parasite without a low-medium powered microscope so that is something else you are seeing. Hypo will kill most invertabrates and also destroy live rock. I guess you could use it in a that small FO tank if you removed the rock and placed in in standard SW during the treatment period.

[pavehawk]

Well what ever it is swimming around are the size if a pin head or smaller I can see them really well on the black back wall. Will Ick live on my starfish if I remove my fish to treat them? I just don't want to go through the whole process of treating my fish only to dump them back into the tank to get infected again... In other words does ick only live on fish or is you tank infected?

[MotherFish]

What you are seeing are most likely small "pods", it's definitely not Ich.
The only time Ich is free-swimming is in the <18hrs after it first hatches from the cyst to find a host.
When it leaves the host after feeding it's unable to swim and drops down to the substrate to encyst and multiply starting the whole cycle again.
In both of those instances, just as WK said, you'd need a microscope to be able to see the Ich parasites. You can't see Ich with the naked eye.

To answer your other questions, Yes, you can treat your FOWLR with hypo if you desire, but this will kill all of your microscopic life (pods, worms, stars, etc.) in your sand and on your rock.
This will also kill your larger stars, shrimp, and snails.
Depending on how much die-off you have, you will probably have to use an ammonia detoxifier until the bacteria cycle catches up.

If you remove the fish and treat in a separate tank in order to keep all your inverts, stars, sand, and rock alive, you won't be able to move the fish back for 6-8 weeks to make sure that all the Ich left behind in the main tank has starved and died out.

Lastly, while Ich prefers to encyst in the sand or on the rock, it is possible for it to encyst on other animals shells/exoskeletons, so while it's unlikely, and Ich cannot feed on them, Yes, there is a chance for your starfish to be "carriers" of an unhatched cyst

[WaterKeeper]

To add to what MotherFish said; ich or velvet cannot feed on a starfish so once the cyst erupts it will not find a fish to act as a host (it must be a fish) and therefore will perish. Once that happens then the tank becomes devoid of either parasite and the fish can be returned.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
To add to what MotherFish said; ich or velvet cannot feed on a starfish so once the cyst erupts it will not find a fish to act as a host (it must be a fish) and therefore will perish. Once that happens then the tank becomes devoid of either parasite and the fish can be returned.

also to add--this period of fishless should be anywhere between 4 and six weeks.

[WaterKeeper]

About the same time as Lent.

[pavehawk]

Thanks for all the info. I will remove the fish and treat that way.

[gamespot]

Thanks for your information,feed your fish a little is fine

[JoelNB]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
also to add--this period of fishless should be anywhere between 4 and six weeks.

I've had my main tank at 78 degrees. Does this mean I should leave it closer to six weeks or should I increase the temperature and only leave it for four weeks, or am I on the wrong track?

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by JoelNB
I've had my main tank at 78 degrees. Does this mean I should leave it closer to six weeks or should I increase the temperature and only leave it for four weeks, or am I on the wrong track?

Joel--raising the temperature does not help with marine ich.
You can leave the temperature where it is and wait the four weeks----words spoken many times by our great mentor The Water Keeper

[WaterKeeper]

It does speed the life cycle Scot. I'd raise it to about 82-84°F during the treatment. The faster the cysts emerge the faster you are rid of it.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
It does speed the life cycle Scot. I'd raise it to about 82-84°F during the treatment. The faster the cysts emerge the faster you are rid of it.

okay now I am confused great mentor

[WaterKeeper]

The confusion is because Ichthyophthirius multifiliis the ciliate that causes FW ich is heat liable and can be eradicated by increasing tank temperature to around 89°F while our SW ciliate, Cryptocaryon irritans can tolerate that type of temperature while marine fish would tend to suffer. The thing is both parasites go through the cyst stage far faster as the temperature increases. At low temps Crypto can take over two months before the cyst erupt and release the free swimming stage where they can be successfully treated. Temperatures around 85°F shorten that period to under thee weeks so the isolation period needed are for a successful quarantine period are reduced. Slightly rasing the temperature of the hospital tank can be of assistance in combating the disease.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
The confusion is because Ichthyophthirius multifiliis the ciliate that causes FW ich is heat liable and can be eradicated by increasing tank temperature to around 89°F while our SW ciliate, Cryptocaryon irritans can tolerate that type of temperature while marine fish would tend to suffer. The thing is both parasites go through the cyst stage far faster as the temperature increases. At low temps Crypto can take over two months before the cyst erupt and release the free swimming stage where they can be successfully treated. Temperatures around 85°F shorten that period to under thee weeks so the isolation period needed are for a successful quarantine period are reduced. Slightly rasing the temperature of the hospital tank can be of assistance in combating the disease.

the 4 week fishless allowance-----at what temperature is that?

[justdoit]

Thats some good info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WaterKeeper]

The four week quarantine is usually figured for a tank kept at 82°F. It figures the cysts emerge in 3 weeks while the other stages, free swimming and feeding, take about a week for completion I like to increase that just a bit to stay on the side of caution.

[pclausen]

Setup a 480g system (180g reef, 150g fowlr, 150g sump) 2 weeks ago. I dropped 200# of LR from my previous system (all fish had died due to ich and having my hardwood floors redone) that had been cocking for 6 weeks into the 180g, and 200# of Marco base rock into the 150g.

I never did detect a cycle, so last weekend I picked up a pair of clowns and a snowflake. I dropped the eel into a 55g QT tank (filled with water from the main system) with a single LR also from the main system and a canister of LR rubble that had been running on the main system for 48 hours.

The clowns were dropped directly into the 180g DT. Then last night I noticed the clowns were developing white spots all over, so it looks like I never got rid of the ich from 8 weeks ago despite being fallow for all that time.

Being that the eel is in a tank filled with water from the main system, and the fact that I dropped a LR in there for him to hide in, I suspect he's now a carrier.

I moved the clowns into a 5g IO bucket last night and will be moving them into a 10g QT tank that I picked up today.

The eel will be moved into a 45g QT I will be setting up tonight, so that I can tear the 55g and move the LR back into the main system which will now have to be fallow for 6-8 weeks. I'll also dismantle the canister and ditch the LR rubble.

While the eel shows no signs of ich, I don't want to take any chances, so I was thinking of doing the tank to tank method with him for the next 12 days between the 45g and 55g tanks. Having nothing but PVC pipes and a HOB in each QT.

I was going to pick up a 2nd 10g for the clowns and do the TTM method for them as well. Does this sounds like a good approach being that I have the tanks and space? I know copper is out of the question for the eel and figured the TTM would be less stressful.

One other questions. I take it it is fine to do the initial fill from the main system, but that with each water change or fill of the other QT tank, should be carried out with freshly mixed water, and that as a result, for the TTM method, I should acclimate for 2 hours during each transition?

Btw, the eel is eating like a hog since the day I picked him up and he's about 1 foot long right now.

Thanks!

[pclausen]

I suppose there is the possiblity that the clowns had ich from the LFS? In that case, the eel might be fine since that QT was filled from the main system 2 days prior to his arrival.

The clowns are now doing fine in their 10g QT, they actually look better and are eating well.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by pclausen
I suppose there is the possiblity that the clowns had ich from the LFS? In that case, the eel might be fine since that QT was filled from the main system 2 days prior to his arrival.

The clowns are now doing fine in their 10g QT, they actually look better and are eating well.

it is very likely the clowns had the ich from the LFS--when you put them directly into the tank did you also add the water from the lfs that was in the bag?

[JoelNB]

pclausen, sorry to hear about your clowns.

Thank you Waterkeeper, and thanks capn_hylinur for asking the question I think we all wanted to know.

[MotherFish]

I'm glad to hear they are doing better.
Now you can start tank transfers on them every 3 days and they should be safe from reinfection while in QT.

Unfortunately, since they were introduced into the display tank, they have most likely infected the tank with fresh cysts which means another long fallow period to clear the DT again. Sorry.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by MotherFish
I'm glad to hear they are doing better.
Now you can start tank transfers on them every 3 days and they should be safe from reinfection while in QT.

Unfortunately, since they were introduced into the display tank, they have most likely infected the tank with fresh cysts which means another long fallow period to clear the DT again. Sorry.

+ 1---again sorry but you have no choice in leaving the dt fishless

[WaterKeeper]

I agree, the tank should have been ich free by the time the new fish were added. They had to be infected when introduced. That is one of the problems with detecting ich on fish at the LFS. Often the proprietors will have high turnovers of fish and place them in a tank that contains ich cysts. The newly introduced fish acquire ich but it has not been hosting on them long enough to be readily apparent. The spots do not appear as soon as the parasite burrows into the fish. Only when they are brought home for a few days has the infection progressed to the point where the aquarist can visually see the spots.

[pclausen]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
it is very likely the clowns had the ich from the LFS--when you put them directly into the tank did you also add the water from the lfs that was in the bag?

No. I drip acclimated for about 1 hour, then netted the clowns and dropped them into the display.