N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[HighlandReefer]

" few days latter diy reactor create bacterial bloom and drop nitrate from 100 to 0,25 in few days"

I can see where a bacterial bloom would reduce nitrate quickly. I don't believe this is a safe practice IMHO, even though many hobbyists have experienced bacterial blooms while using these pellets without problems. The number of hobbyists' reports of bacterial blooms while using these products is alarming IMHO.

All bacteria do produce toxins as they grow and multiply. Some of these bacterial toxins are much more toxic than other bacterial toxins. If the bacterial specie that blooms in the water column produces highly toxic byproducts, then this could have drastic effects on your other organisms. The blooms rob oxygen from the water column. The effects on the coral symbionts could be negative and result in bleaching (expulsion) or worse yet cause changes in symbiont population species in the coral (some produce toxins which kill coral tissue). Just because this does not occur with the species of bacteria you have in your tank, it don't necessarily mean it can't occur for other hobbyists.

Exactly what the effects on coral symbionts the organic chemicals released in the water column from these pellets is unknown. Obviously for a bacterial boom to occur in the water column, the reactor is releasing the pellet material into the tank water IMHO. I thought the major purpose for using solid pellets is to prevent this from occurring like when using liquid carbon sources?

[daveonbass]

I agree wit cliff's last point the most. Which is why I'm trying to limit the variables in my tank. Once and for all...im not changing my tank: rock, sand, etc. I've had guge success in the past and still am now, just wanted to see if BP's would help. I HAVE run the pellets in a BB tank that was also phosphate limited, and had the same lack of results. So I feel that is further proof that it's not a sand bed issue. Also on the sand issue, I did stop using BP for a while and my NO3 never went up, so if it were the sand releasing nitrate, then why wouldn't I see an increse during the time that I didn't use a BP reactor (assuming the pellets were holding the NO3 steady)?

why I started BP's? Cause I DID have high NO3, 80+ppm. And my sps were dying off. Only through WC's has the NO3 ever come down. But that's why I began to use them in the first place.

I do NOT claim to have "zero" PO4, I now make it a point to always try to say that PO4 is "undetectable" because it doesn't register on my test kits...BUT that also means that it's not going up at all. So there is no negative change on the PO4 issue...but my NO3 has been constantly changing, but not from the use of the BP.

so there is still much to discover about these BP...and yes to whomever asked, I would like to add more BP to see if that helps/works, but I only have the amount that SWC gave me, and I'm using it all at this point.

[drummereef]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

...and yes to whomever asked, I would like to add more BP to see if that helps/works, but I only have the amount that SWC gave me, and I'm using it all at this point.

It was me. How many ml's are you running right now?

[bluereefs]

I can see where a bacterial bloom would reduce nitrate quickly. I don't believe this is a safe practice IMHO

BP can reduce nitrate quickly without bacterial bloom as well, before few weeks I start to use bp slowly in my diy reactor, starting with 100 ml and ading each week or two another 100 - 200 ml, until I come to 500 ml in reactor, first weeks nitrate did not drop but I was seing great bacterial production in my sponge, prefilter sock and skimmer (skimming was much stronger) then in one week nitrate drop from 50 to 5, few days latter actually yesterday I tested nitrate and they are 2,5 mg/lit, all proces last aprox 40 days, suden nitrate drop was measured in last 10 days. No bacterial bloom at all during complete proces. As I wrote I learned a loot last few months from many bacterial bloom.

Obviously for a bacterial boom to occur in the water column, the reactor is releasing the pellet material into the tank water IMHO. I thought the major purpose for using solid pellets is to prevent this from occurring like when using liquid carbon sources?

IMO bacterial bloom come from way to much bacteria in water column in short period of time, reason for my opinion is because in the past when I will start my diy reactor with higher amount of bio pellets, with 500 ml for example from the start I will get bacterial bloom next day but if I ad small amount of bp during weeks then I do not get bacterial bloom with 500 ml, is the same reactor so if there are carbon/pellets release in aquarium I should get bacterial bloom both time. Also people who use them in the bag and not in the reactor will get bacterial bloom all the time, siting in bag in the sump are actually pellets materials in tank water, not separated in the reactor.

[davyr]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

I agree wit cliff's last point the most. Which is why I'm trying to limit the variables in my tank. Once and for all...im not changing my tank: rock, sand, etc. I've had guge success in the past and still am now, just wanted to see if BP's would help. I HAVE run the pellets in a BB tank that was also phosphate limited, and had the same lack of results. So I feel that is further proof that it's not a sand bed issue. Also on the sand issue, I did stop using BP for a while and my NO3 never went up, so if it were the sand releasing nitrate, then why wouldn't I see an increse during the time that I didn't use a BP reactor (assuming the pellets were holding the NO3 steady)?

why I started BP's? Cause I DID have high NO3, 80+ppm. And my sps were dying off. Only through WC's has the NO3 ever come down. But that's why I began to use them in the first place.

I do NOT claim to have "zero" PO4, I now make it a point to always try to say that PO4 is "undetectable" because it doesn't register on my test kits...BUT that also means that it's not going up at all. So there is no negative change on the PO4 issue...but my NO3 has been constantly changing, but not from the use of the BP.

so there is still much to discover about these BP...and yes to whomever asked, I would like to add more BP to see if that helps/works, but I only have the amount that SWC gave me, and I'm using it all at this point.

Just dropped you a pm Dave and by the way i am running a 50 gallon tank with a 23 gallon sump with no DSB.

[daveonbass]

Originally Posted by drummereef

It was me. How many ml's are you running right now?

I was given 250ml. It claims that 250ml is for up to 50g tanks. I have a 58g tank with a sump, minus rock and 3"+ of sand (more in the sump) I now have a display volume of ~40g. I know this because a 20g water change is half the volume. Soooo, I guess I have enough pellets, and about two more weeks till I can start saying that they have/havn't started working (according to SWC) and even then I'll give it more time.

however, I still wonder, like many of you, if I would simply need MORE pellets. But so far this is all I got from them.

[davyr]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

BP can reduce nitrate quickly without bacterial bloom as well, before few weeks I start to use bp slowly in my diy reactor, starting with 100 ml and ading each week or two another 100 - 200 ml, until I come to 500 ml in reactor, first weeks nitrate did not drop but I was seing great bacterial production in my sponge, prefilter sock and skimmer (skimming was much stronger) then in one week nitrate drop from 50 to 5, few days latter actually yesterday I tested nitrate and they are 2,5 mg/lit, all proces last aprox 40 days, suden nitrate drop was measured in last 10 days. No bacterial bloom at all during complete proces. As I wrote I learned a loot last few months from many bacterial bloom.


IMO bacterial bloom come from way to much bacteria in water column in short period of time, reason for my opinion is because in the past when I will start my diy reactor with higher amount of bio pellets, with 500 ml for example from the start I will get bacterial bloom next day but if I ad small amount of bp during weeks then I do not get bacterial bloom with 500 ml, is the same reactor so if there are carbon/pellets release in aquarium I should get bacterial bloom both time. Also people who use them in the bag and not in the reactor will get bacterial bloom all the time, siting in bag in the sump are actually pellets materials in tank water, not separated in the reactor.

Hi there bluereef,
I am one of them guys that have been running the pellets since the 23/7/10 and i am having the same bother as Dave is having. I have a 50 gallon tank with a 23 gallon sump and no DSB and i cannot seem to get my nitrates under 10 but who knows only time will tell. I run 1 litre of pellets in a reactor and maybe that is to much for my system.
Sorry its the wrong way round.

[bluereefs]

davyr do you use prefilter bag/mikron sock in the sump, if you use them or one of them did they clog fast? Do you see any sign of bacteria in aquarium or equipment, white film on front glass, tiny film/strings in reactor?
Can you put some filter sock at the reactor outlet and check is there some bacterial slime after few days? Do you have reduced algae growth in aquarium, of course if you have them in first place?

If your pellets are working then 1000 ml will probably create bacterial bloom in your aquarium, if nothing is changed, no nitrate drop, no stronger skimming, no signs of bacteria whatsoever then I think your bp do not work at all.

Maybe lowering the bp amount can help, no need to trash bp what you remove from reactor, just wash them and dry.

IMO I would advice anyone who suspect in their bp to mount filtersock at the reactor outlet, at least temporary to see if reactor produce bacteria at all.

here you can see filter sock what I use and how they get filled with bacteria in 24 hours : http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2470

[DJREEF]

The last 10ppm is taking awhile in my system, too. I think its like weight loss. The last 10lbs to lose takes the longest.

DJ

[SERVO]

Thanks for the input, however I'm interrested in running the bulk reef supply jumbo reactor. Does anyone have any experience with the reactor using n/p reducing pellets? If so, how many liters of media will it hold?

[Moser]

Interesting from the producer of the new D+D pellets...

"A quick way of getting the pearls active, is to place the reactor in a bucket of old tank water and run it for a few days until the water turns cloudy. This produces a bacterial bloom because there is no skimmer to catch it and so it can multiply very quickly. Once you reach this stage, you will notice that the inside of the bucket and outside of the reactor will feel slimey. You can then drain the reactor of all water, give the outside a wipe down and put it in your sump. The pearls will then be well seeded and secondry to this, your skimmer wont shut down for a few days. ive tested this method and its very effective."


Mo

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

IMO bacterial bloom come from way to much bacteria in water column in short period of time, reason for my opinion is because in the past when I will start my diy reactor with higher amount of bio pellets, with 500 ml for example from the start I will get bacterial bloom next day but if I ad small amount of bp during weeks then I do not get bacterial bloom with 500 ml, is the same reactor so if there are carbon/pellets release in aquarium I should get bacterial bloom both time. Also people who use them in the bag and not in the reactor will get bacterial bloom all the time, siting in bag in the sump are actually pellets materials in tank water, not separated in the reactor.

From this post it sounds like you're indicating the pellets aren't releasing anything into the water column correct??

Jeremy

[davyr]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

davyr do you use prefilter bag/mikron sock in the sump, if you use them or one of them did they clog fast? Do you see any sign of bacteria in aquarium or equipment, white film on front glass, tiny film/strings in reactor?
Can you put some filter sock at the reactor outlet and check is there some bacterial slime after few days? Do you have reduced algae growth in aquarium, of course if you have them in first place?

If your pellets are working then 1000 ml will probably create bacterial bloom in your aquarium, if nothing is changed, no nitrate drop, no stronger skimming, no signs of bacteria whatsoever then I think your bp do not work at all.

Maybe lowering the bp amount can help, no need to trash bp what you remove from reactor, just wash them and dry.

IMO I would advice anyone who suspect in their bp to mount filtersock at the reactor outlet, at least temporary to see if reactor produce bacteria at all.

here you can see filter sock what I use and how they get filled with bacteria in 24 hours : http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...postcount=2470

I am getting 5mm strings intop of the reactor but i have had no algea issues in the tank.I did have the cloudy tank at start of using pellets. I am only getting the algea strings and the increased skimmer production when i knock my reactor off for several hours and then put it back online bluereef. To be honest i have never used a filter sock in my sump so i could'nt tell you if it has slimed up.

[daveonbass]

I think the pellets just don't work for people named "dave"...the manufacturers are "davists"! :

[ari5736]

Originally Posted by Moser

Interesting from the producer of the new D+D pellets...

"A quick way of getting the pearls active, is to place the reactor in a bucket of old tank water and run it for a few days until the water turns cloudy. This produces a bacterial bloom because there is no skimmer to catch it and so it can multiply very quickly. Once you reach this stage, you will notice that the inside of the bucket and outside of the reactor will feel slimey. You can then drain the reactor of all water, give the outside a wipe down and put it in your sump. The pearls will then be well seeded and secondry to this, your skimmer wont shut down for a few days. ive tested this method and its very effective."


Mo

This is what activated the pellets in my tanks.

[daveonbass]

anyone else have pods growing in and sround the pellets, mine are starting a nice colony in the reactor. Maybe something good will come out of these.

[tmz]

As Cliff noted it takes some time to reduce NO3 with carbon dosing. Impatience often leads to overdosing and problems. In my experience it's better to reduce nitrates to a reasonable level before starting the carbon dosing regimen. Two years ago nitrates climbed to around 60 ppm/80ppm in the 550 gallon high bioload sytem which houses lots of corals and over 40 well fed fish.PO4 was managed with refugia and gfo but was difficult to keep at less than .15ppm . I used a sulfur dentirator to take the nitrates to 0 in 5 weeks iclusding 2 weeks cycling time for the reactor.Since then moderate voka dosing( 34 ml for 550 gallons has held them in the 0.2 to 0.5ppm range and held PO4 to<0.05ppm with about half the gfo used before.

[davyr]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

I think the pellets just don't work for people named "dave"...the manufacturers are "davists"! :

You have hit the nail on the head there Dave

[drummereef]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

I was given 250ml. It claims that 250ml is for up to 50g tanks. I have a 58g tank with a sump, minus rock and 3"+ of sand (more in the sump) I now have a display volume of ~40g. I know this because a 20g water change is half the volume. Soooo, I guess I have enough pellets, and about two more weeks till I can start saying that they have/havn't started working (according to SWC) and even then I'll give it more time.

however, I still wonder, like many of you, if I would simply need MORE pellets. But so far this is all I got from them.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I don't think I would subtract the rock/sand volume from your tank. Honestly I don't think water volume / tank volume has anything to do with the pellet's efficiency - It's just a general guide for the manufacturer to print of the package. It's all about bio load. From what it sounds like, you have a moderate or even high-ish bio load (haven't seen any pics of the tank though...). I would stay the course as you are but highly consider adding more pellets after you've finished the next couple weeks of testing. I just don't think you've hit a base line yet for what the tank is demanding.

Originally Posted by davyr

Hi there bluereef,
I am one of them guys that have been running the pellets since the 23/7/10 and i am having the same bother as Dave is having. I have a 50 gallon tank with a 23 gallon sump and no DSB and i cannot seem to get my nitrates under 10 but who knows only time will tell. I run 1 litre of pellets in a reactor and maybe that is to much for my system.
Sorry its the wrong way round.

Seems like a lot of pellets for 75g's but who knows... Are the nitrates staying around 10ppm or fluctuating a lot? If they aren't moving how do you know if the pellets aren't keeping them from going to 50 or more? It's plausible they aren't lowering the nitrate, but are allowing you to keep your feeding regimen without the NO3 skyrocketing. There's other factors but just a thought...

[daveonbass]

drum: now your speakin' my language. I also question the "rule of thumb" as far as tank size vs bio load. I really do wonder if more pellets is all I ever needed.

davy: so wait...what was your "starting" no3 level? You say you can't get it below 10ppm, which to me implys that they WERE higher and that the BP reduced it to 10, but not any furter. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am). In MY case the BP have never worked...at all. My NO3 level stays where I set it, with or without the pellets. I agree with Drum that it sounds like your pellets are just maintaining your levels, if you want to test that, take them offline and see if the NO3 rises up past 10, and how quickly does it occur.

[drummereef]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

drum: now your speakin' my language. I also question the "rule of thumb" as far as tank size vs bio load. I really do wonder if more pellets is all I ever needed.

I should have added... bio load is impossible to truly measure. It is the true "X" factor of any system imo.

[sirreal63]

Things that I have noticed...skimmate is very light now, takes days to collect much, pellets have turned back to a lighter color, no noticeable mulm on pellets, still immeasurable N and P, the algae that was in the overflow is gone, no cover on it and I always had some there, chaeto is barely hanging on, Hymenia is still alive but not growing. Sand is snow white again. I thought I was overskimming, so I put the Sedra 5000 back on the G3 and cleaned the Sicce and put it in the closet. I haven't done a partial water change in more than a month. I still feed a cube of Mysis and BBS daily without rinsing them and everything is staying stable. Corals are coloring up and growing, I started this tank with all brown corals from LFS and a few brown frags.

The only thing that has changed is the addition of the pellets. Dave, I wish I knew why they are not helping you. If they don't kick in soon, consider a little sugar or vinegar.

[daveonbass]

so should I go sweet or sour. Haha. Maybe hit up a local chinese restaurant and get some sweet and sour sause.

I'm glad these do work for some people. If they had worked for me then I'm sure I would have shut up months ago and told all my friends that I swear by them. But instead I'm burdened with trying to discover what is so crazy different about my system, and what to do to see results.

[davyr]

Originally Posted by drummereef

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I don't think I would subtract the rock/sand volume from your tank. Honestly I don't think water volume / tank volume has anything to do with the pellet's efficiency - It's just a general guide for the manufacturer to print of the package. It's all about bio load. From what it sounds like, you have a moderate or even high-ish bio load (haven't seen any pics of the tank though...). I would stay the course as you are but highly consider adding more pellets after you've finished the next couple weeks of testing. I just don't think you've hit a base line yet for what the tank is demanding.




Seems like a lot of pellets for 75g's but who knows... Are the nitrates staying around 10ppm or fluctuating a lot? If they aren't moving how do you know if the pellets aren't keeping them from going to 50 or more? It's plausible they aren't lowering the nitrate, but are allowing you to keep your feeding regimen without the NO3 skyrocketing. There's other factors but just a thought...

My nitrates never fluctuate,they always stay at 10. I still do 4 gallon w/c every Thursday.

[davyr]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

drum: now your speakin' my language. I also question the "rule of thumb" as far as tank size vs bio load. I really do wonder if more pellets is all I ever needed.

davy: so wait...what was your "starting" no3 level? You say you can't get it below 10ppm, which to me implys that they WERE higher and that the BP reduced it to 10, but not any furter. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am). In MY case the BP have never worked...at all. My NO3 level stays where I set it, with or without the pellets. I agree with Drum that it sounds like your pellets are just maintaining your levels, if you want to test that, take them offline and see if the NO3 rises up past 10, and how quickly does it occur.

Hi Dave,
My nitrates were 25 on the 23/7/10 so they have come down but I want them down further. If that is possible?