N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[TheFishMan65]

If I remember all my information correctly. I think Cliff found them for WAMAS. They are a PLA plastic sold as polymorph. Randy once said that, friendly plastic, and shape lock are all pretty much the same. I just did a group buy (13kg total) and got a kilogram (aobut 1.25 liters) for $31. Don't know if these are actually what any of the reef companies are selling, and have not got them on line yet to say that they work. Howver, an earlier group did a buy and appears to be having good results.

[Mike de Leon]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Weird, white hair growth can be bacteria strings, do you have picture of them? I had one bacterial bloom where big part of bacteria was present in aquarium as a bacterial strings, my corals did not like them either. Will try to find a picture of those strings. Weird is because my skimmer worked like a maschine, much stronger skimming then usual, dont know why your skimmer stop working.

If those strings are bacteria they probably remove nutrients what will usually corals use for their food so your corals can be starved and bleached.

I stoped bio pellets and feed the corals with blenderized food, it help in my situation.

Maybe someone else have better explanation/advice?

Thank you. How often do you folks do water changes? I will try and reduce mine to once every two weeks from once a week. I did 10 prcnt weekly. Hopefully i will increase the nutrients that way. I have started feeding the corals now. Again, how often?

[daveonbass]

I just got off the phone with SWC and we have decided to try and slow the flow down for a while. Hopefully that will make a difference. The guy I talked to said that a local reefer had the same issue I'm having and that slowing it down more made the difference. So we will see. He also mentioned that I may need to take the top off, which I can't, and that also it may be not working due to micro bubbles in the reactor. And we both agreed that those two statements seem contradictory...but he says it's what they have noticed. Weird huh? Wish me luck.

[tahiriqbal]

found some info on these Polymorph

http://www.rapidonline.com/netalogue/specs/87-0090e.pdf

If they are same as NP Bioballs then they can be obtained at much cheaper price...

They look remarkably smiler to NP Biopellets just a different colour...Flebay item number 390228010779 Yes, No, any comments?

[bluereefs]

Mike de Leon , here is my bacterial strings during one bacterial bloom, are they look similar to white hair growth what you have?



Here is reactor and skimmer picture from that bloom





I disconect bp reactor and feed heavy, few times a days, loots of blenderized crab meat, dump aprox 4 pounds in 30 days in 3 aquariums, this aquarium receive aprox 1 pound of blenderized foood in 30 days.

[jlinzmaier]

Holy crap Bluereefs!!! If you can feed a pound of food a month and maintain a healthy aquarium you are doing something right!! Granted a lot of that weight is moisture but even so that is a massive amount of food you're feeding. A small can of new life spectrum and a couple packs of brine shrimp and mysis shrimp lasts me over a year and I have very fat and healthy fish as well as very healthy and well nourished corals.

Jeremy

[jlinzmaier]

I don't know if this spectacular thread was linked to in this thread yet or not but it provides a generous amount of information on what we are likley using as "biopellets". This answers a lot of my questions about what the pellets (likley) are and what industry they are used in (then repackaged and sold to reef keepers for mucho $$$$).

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1883610

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

The bottom line may be the cost of the biopolymers and how easily we can get them. As demand increases for these biopolymers, the price will most likely drop. Currently they are expensive to produce and need to be shipped in from foreign countries like China which drives the costs up.

Buying in bulk and shipping in bulk would allow a company to sell them at a lower cost. Bulk Reef Supply comes to mind again. I'll post what response I get from them as I've already inquired.

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

There have been studies in waste water where providing additional acetate has greatly benefited the brake down of the polymers which incorporate starch in the molecule.

This may be a part of the reason why people like tntneon have had more success after the use of some vinegar dosing.

Jeremy

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

Holy crap Bluereefs!!! If you can feed a pound of food a month and maintain a healthy aquarium you are doing something right!! Granted a lot of that weight is moisture but even so that is a massive amount of food you're feeding. A small can of new life spectrum and a couple packs of brine shrimp and mysis shrimp lasts me over a year and I have very fat and healthy fish as well as very healthy and well nourished corals.

Jeremy

lol, I overreacting with food but can stoping, fishes/corals like my diy food, usually dry food cans last aprox month for me, comercial froozen food also very short, I spent all comercial food and start to made my own diy food, live in the island in Adriatic sea and my father in law is fishermen so I have supply of fresh caught sea animals, recently I find that crabs are super, everybody like them, best are femalle crab loaded with eggs. here is small percentage of my diy food, no water are aded, only what is in crabs so my diy food are highly concetrated









Regular feeding are aprox 2-3 cubs daily, in case of bleaching due to bacterial bloom I use much more until the animals recover, there is few drawback of this feeding, first aiptasia like my food very much and multiply fast, second my fishes do not do nothing except folowing me all day acroos the aquarium, very anoying lol

I should buy comercial food again and cut so much feeding.

[bluereefs]

Regarding PHA sources, somewhere in the begining of this thread jptkentloster mentiones Mirel , http://www.mirelplastics.com/discove...t.aspx?ID=1560, http://www.mirelplastics.com/discove...t.aspx?ID=1460 , can not remember did he specifies that he do not use Mirel or use Mirel products for his bio pellets.

some info : http://www.mirelplastics.com/environ...#biodegradable

[DJREEF]

Hell, I was thinking about ordering a box of these http://biodegradablestore.com/pp/Ute...forks_C_P.html
and throwing them in the sump up stream from the skimmers. Since I'm running passive anyway (no reactor) I couldn't see how it would hurt, and it would be a helluva lot cheaper per lb than BP's.

DJ

[TheFishMan65]

I would worry about what else is in them. BUt if you do try it i wound try and break them up so that you have more surface area.

[jlinzmaier]

Bluereefs that looks like some pretty good stuff you've got mixed there. Wish I lived near a location where I could get a wide variety of fresh food like that. In regards to the aiptasia, I'm culturing berghia. Culturing the berghia is much easier than culturing the aiptasia to feed them. I'd love to have some overgrowth of aiptasia!! LOL!! As silly as it sounds, getting aiptasia to reproduce and grow fast when you want them to is harder than it sounds. Of course when you're dealing with an aiptasia infestation in a reef tank (and don't have berghia waiting to eat them they seem to grow and reproduce faster than any other living animal.

Just got word from Bulk Reef Supply that they are looking into getting a source of pellets and selling them in bulk. This eliminates the cost we pay to the person who gets them, packages them with an indication of aquatic application, then sells them to places like Premium aquatics and Marine depot who then sells them to us. Unfortunately Brandon didn't have a price or timeframe of availablity yet.

In talking with Jeremy Brower from Premium Aquatics, it seems that Premium Aquatics isn't currently aware of any specific manufacturer to be able to provide them in bulk (and remove the cost of the middle man) but he indicated if they find a manufacturer they would consider selling them in bulk.

Jeremy

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

Hell, I was thinking about ordering a box of these http://biodegradablestore.com/pp/Ute...forks_C_P.html
and throwing them in the sump up stream from the skimmers. Since I'm running passive anyway (no reactor) I couldn't see how it would hurt, and it would be a helluva lot cheaper per lb than BP's.

DJ

Heck yeah!!

From your link

Made from 100% corn, our biodegradable corn utensils fully compost in 45-60 days.

This from your link clearly indicates that they are PLA

Eco-Products certifies that all corn-based products (PLA) are stored in our temperature controlled warehouse.

From the carbon source link I posted earlier.

Polylactic Acid (PLA):

Information:
Basically these are degradable plastic (polymers) derived from corn starch and sugercanes. (Reference #2)

In fact we've a reefer here on RC who'd DIY'ing these polymers from corn starch. (Reference #3)

Studies on waste water processing have shown that PLA with corn starch at 10% weight content receive the best nitrate reduction effects. (Reference #1)

PRO:
- Commercial PLA are relatively cheap.
- Can be DIY from corn starch with some effort.

CON:
- Slow decomposition rate (Reference #4), meaning it could take just too long for the starch to be released from the polymer form into the water.
- Not much information on how effective PLA can be use to control NO3/PO4 in reef aquariums.
(Again please share your story with us if you've successfully used PLA as alternative biopellets)

Sounds like PLA may not be the most efficient polymer and there is limited research on the aquarium use thus far, but somebody will give it a try at some point. I guess I'd try this before I'd put a bag of rice in my tank. Interesting that the link you posted indicates a full decomposition in 45-60 days. If you look at the reference #4 link (listed below) it indicates a decomposition rate of less than 90 days only in a "controlled composting environment". I think the decomposition rate of all of these different polymers are what will determine the amount of organic carbon they release and how fast they release it.

Hmm. I wonder how many forks for a 420 gallon tank??? LOL!!

I looked at the reference site #4 (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...tml?c=y&page=1) and found this.

At the NatureWorks plant in Blair, I don a hard hat, earplugs, gloves and protective eyewear and swear that I will snap no photographs.

I did get a chance to see and touch the obscure object of my desire when some liquid PLA, with the color and shine of caramelized sugar, burst from a pipe and solidified in flossy strands on the steel-grated floor. The next time I saw the stuff, in a box in a warehouse, it had been crystallized into translucent white balls the size of peas: PLA resin. In the hands of fabricators, the pellets would be melted and reshaped into containers, films and fibers.

Sounds very similar to the description of our NP pellets. Maybe I'll try contacting NatureWorks when I have more spare time.


Jeremy

[bluereefs]

Bluereefs that looks like some pretty good stuff you've got mixed there. Wish I lived near a location where I could get a wide variety of fresh food like that. In regards to the aiptasia, I'm culturing berghia. Culturing the berghia is much easier than culturing the aiptasia to feed them. I'd love to have some overgrowth of aiptasia!! LOL!! As silly as it sounds, getting aiptasia to reproduce and grow fast when you want them to is harder than it sounds. Of course when you're dealing with an aiptasia infestation in a reef tank (and don't have berghia waiting to eat them they seem to grow and reproduce faster than any other living animal.

Mixed stuff are internal part of crab Maja squinado including eggs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maja_squinado ) legs and arms are not mixed there because are hard to clean when is fresh, to wet. I was very close to import berghia and breed them, read all materials/articles about breeding, find a dealer but then I come to thread from Paul B: electrocuting majano and order one zapper from him, hopefully with his device I will destroy all aiptasia. Berghia are super but I need to made import licence, documentation... and only that cost aprox 300$ + shipping, taxes, berghia itself so zapper are cheaper solution. What is really ironic we have few Beghia species in Adriatic Sea, even big Berghia (2-3 inches) who eat local anemone and I am sure they will aiptasia as well, I saw them and catched in the past when I do not needed them, now when I need them I could find not even one, that is classic in reef keeping. Off course I am quite sure that if I need aiptasia for whatever reason next day they will be all gone.

[TheFishMan65]

If you want them as pellets then look into the shapelock plastic. Some where in one of these post Randy suggested using that, IIRC. Also search for Friendly plastic or polymorph. I got some of the polymorph for about $15 a pound. Sorry no results yet.

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Mixed stuff are internal part of crab Maja squinado including eggs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maja_squinado ) legs and arms are not mixed there because are hard to clean when is fresh, to wet. I was very close to import berghia and breed them, read all materials/articles about breeding, find a dealer but then I come to thread from Paul B: electrocuting majano and order one zapper from him, hopefully with his device I will destroy all aiptasia. Berghia are super but I need to made import licence, documentation... and only that cost aprox 300$ + shipping, taxes, berghia itself so zapper are cheaper solution. What is really ironic we have few Beghia species in Adriatic Sea, even big Berghia (2-3 inches) who eat local anemone and I am sure they will aiptasia as well, I saw them and catched in the past when I do not needed them, now when I need them I could find not even one, that is classic in reef keeping. Off course I am quite sure that if I need aiptasia for whatever reason next day they will be all gone.

Wow!! You would have to get a license to get berghia shipped to you?? How do you get any other livestock??

Jeremy

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

I would worry about what else is in them. BUt if you do try it i wound try and break them up so that you have more surface area.

Exactly, but given the decomp rate is less than 90 days I think I'd be more inclined to just throw them in there and see what happens. Smaller pieces break down faster.

DJ

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Mixed stuff are internal part of crab Maja squinado including eggs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maja_squinado ) legs and arms are not mixed there because are hard to clean when is fresh, to wet. I was very close to import berghia and breed them, read all materials/articles about breeding, find a dealer but then I come to thread from Paul B: electrocuting majano and order one zapper from him, hopefully with his device I will destroy all aiptasia. Berghia are super but I need to made import licence, documentation... and only that cost aprox 300$ + shipping, taxes, berghia itself so zapper are cheaper solution. What is really ironic we have few Beghia species in Adriatic Sea, even big Berghia (2-3 inches) who eat local anemone and I am sure they will aiptasia as well, I saw them and catched in the past when I do not needed them, now when I need them I could find not even one, that is classic in reef keeping. Off course I am quite sure that if I need aiptasia for whatever reason next day they will be all gone.

That's hilarious that you can easily/cheaply attain an electrocution (torture) device, but need permits and loads of cash to bring in a couple of slugs.

DJ

[bluereefs]

lol DJREEF , is true, I think I could import plutonium much more easy then livestock.

How do you get any other livestock??
Same, direct import from livestock exporters, 3 months of paperwork, import, usually get screwed for at least 30-40 % of order ( if I am lucky), bancrupt, recover and then again, LOL

[Jimbo7]

There is so much information in this thread but it's hard to sort through everything because everyone seems to have different experiences with these and each person has a varying degree of documentation.
From what I can gather, the pellets have a positive effect when:
Used with strong skimmer
Gradually increased from 1/2 recommended dose
Used in a reactor
Pellets are in low tumble
Reactor output is very close to skimmer intake

Am I correct in this? I have read about the limiting factor amongst the primary foods, C,N and P, which seems to make a lot of sense, so it is better to increase C very gradually while monitoring N and P?

[TheFishMan65]

Sounds about right

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by Jimbo7

There is so much information in this thread but it's hard to sort through everything because everyone seems to have different experiences with these and each person has a varying degree of documentation.
From what I can gather, the pellets have a positive effect when:
Used with strong skimmer
Gradually increased from 1/2 recommended dose
Used in a reactor
Pellets are in low tumble
Reactor output is very close to skimmer intake

Am I correct in this? I have read about the limiting factor amongst the primary foods, C,N and P, which seems to make a lot of sense, so it is better to increase C very gradually while monitoring N and P?

That's a pretty good generalization IMO.

Jeremy

[nadking]

Hey guys, I am super interested in this product, and were wondering if you think it would work out in my system. After 1 hour of reading ive only made it through the first 10 pages of this thread and still have a few ?'s. I have a 210 gallon mixed reef, that has been overall doing really well. I have recently increased my feedings in an attempt to keep my anthias and new tangs happy. Since the feedings have increased, I have noticed a very light green cyano-ish bacteria growing in the lowest flow areas of the tank. My sps have also lost some of their color. Ive always had some diatomish brown algae that grows on the sand. Im guessing increased nutrients in the system are the culprit and Id like to get the tank as clean as possible. The only supplements I have ever used are calcium and alkalinity buffers, as well as GFO. I currently have a reactor filled with de-nitrate that I was thinking of swapping out for the Bio-pellets. Do you think this product will help? and what flow optimizes their performance in the reactor, here is a pic of the tank just for fun. Also my nitrates and phosphates are testing up as 0, but I am only using API kits so I know they are not the most accurate.

[bluereefs]

nadking, you can try, start with low amount of bp and add slowly more bp until you get satisfied with results. Watch carefully for posibble issue with soft corals, I do not have problem with soft corals but someone mentioned in this thread that they lost softy due to bleaching. If your reactor start to produce bacteria I think that will be positive for your aquarium. I use aprox 500 ml of bp on heavy feeded 150 g aquarium.

Here is recent shot of my 150 g aquarium, is also mixed reef, sorry for the picture quality

[nadking]

Bluereefs, great looking tank, it looks like we have a similar amount of fish, although you have WAY more corals than me. How much of the np do you think I should begin with on my 210, overall volume appx. 240. I am not too concerened with bleaching of my softies, as I am not as in love with them as I am the sps.