Large Tank IN a Basement-Ventilation Suggestoin Please oh brethern of the mamoth tank - Page 11

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 05:29 PM

There was a HVAC "show" here in St. Louis about a month ago.

While attending, I stopped by the booth of every manufacturer who makes ERVs and asked them about their products. Not a single one of the reps could tell me that they recommended using an ERV in my area because of the high humidity levels in the summer.

ERVs should not be trying to dehumidify the air from the house. They should be trying to dehumidify the incoming air while also trying to exchange the heat to the outgoing air.

On another note....those who are concerned about harming their furnaces should not be worried about it unless they are drawing salt spray into their ductwork. As long as the return is far enough away from the tank, the possibility of salt getting into the ductwork is very minimal. Salt doesn't evaporate along with the water.

steve the plumb · 11/06/2007, 06:12 PM

humidity will ruin a furnace.My gas furnace was 6 years old and was rotted out due to humidity in the room.My tank is no where near the furnace room and I have radiators (old home) for some reason there is humidity in my furnace room and my furnace didn't last as long as it should have.I will place a dehumidifier in the furnace room because I already see that I am getting a white residue on my new furnace(this is what happens when the furnace room is humid) the furnace will have to be cleaned.I don't know why this is happening but the fish room is a concern to me in the summer.

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 06:15 PM

Furnaces in places like New Orleans stay in humidity like that the whole time that they are used. Seems like most of the ones I've seen down there are mounted in the attics of homes and because of that are in high humidity and heat year round.

Oldtimer · 11/06/2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capncapo
ERVs should not be trying to dehumidify the air from the house. They should be trying to dehumidify the incoming air while also trying to exchange the heat to the outgoing air.

That was exactly what I had i mind, but the reps' feedback is consistent with the feel I got from everything I've read about ERV's. I also read a bit about the saturation of the dessicant that wmilas pointed out. I have yet to run this one by my neighbor, but I suspect his feedback will be consistent with yours. My idea was to reduce the load on the more expensive to operate A/C in the summer months.

I'm leaning towards the following...
* A dedicated A/C unit for the basement with ducting in the equipment room and near the tank
* An HRV for the equipment room
* Vents with adjustable dampers to regulate air passively betweeen the equipment room and living space
* No dehumidifier
* Possibly a chiller, but probably try to run without one at first
* Possibly a duct from the equipment room into the furnace return ductwork (assuming I'm convinced that it will not destroy my furnace) - In my mind this is not required with the HRV, but would allow me to distribute the humidity throughout the rest of the house during the dry/cold months
* A controller to regulate everything as seemlessly as possible

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 07:30 PM

Why would you want to run a Heat Retaining Ventilator in summer? They are designed to do just that....retain heat in the house.

A separate mini-split system can definitely help.

A duct into the return of your furnace will help also but I would recommend that you also run a supply from the furnace into the fish room just to "pressureize the room a bit. It will help the return to draw air better.

I'm not a big fan of running dehumidifiers in the summer. They create unnecessary heat.

While vents with dampers between the fish room and living space may make the fish room a bit more tolerable you'll just be spreading the misery to the living space.

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 07:30 PM

Duplicate post

Oldtimer · 11/06/2007, 08:13 PM

My idea was to run the HRV in the winter since cool/dry air is plentiful then. I thought of having an ERV (vs. HRV) for the summer based on this quote until I saw your feedback...

"The most popular design of ERVs utilizes a desiccant
wheel to remove both heat and a significant amount
of moisture from the incoming air, which reduces the load
on the air-conditioning system."

I'll plan to run both supply/return if I route fish room air to the furnace - thx.

My concept of installing the vents between the equipment room and the rest of the basement is to have the option in case I ever need it but ultimately keep air flowing through the room to avoid pH fluctuations. Perhaps there's a more efficient way to do this - ? I guess I don't expect the A/C to be working all the time.

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 08:21 PM

The best way to keep the pH fluctuations in check is to have a fresh air intake.

Something you might want to consider is having a small intake that would supply air to your skimmer only. It could possibly raise your water temp a bit but could be well worth it.

Oldtimer · 11/06/2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capncapo
The best way to keep the pH fluctuations in check is to have a fresh air intake.

Something you might want to consider is having a small intake that would supply air to your skimmer only. It could possibly raise your water temp a bit but could be well worth it.

Never considered that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks!

wmilas · 11/06/2007, 09:02 PM

Everyone agrees that an air conditioner, if you can afford it is great because it both lowers temp and lowers humidity. Great.

The problem arises with the dehumidifier. In a partly cold climate there are times when the air outside is both cold and too humid. Its in this case when the dehumidifier is nice... I think.

As why use a hrv instead of a simple vent? Well in the wintertime the HRV is a big winner. In the summertime the HRV will hardly be used because its most often more humid outside.

That leaves spring and fall. In these cases if its less humid outside and cold and you need to dump heat also, the hrv will be sub-optimal, but will still work, will just need to run longer to dump the heat. I think mine is a 85% efficient model, which seems to be pretty up there. Run it long enough and it will eventually dump enough heat. Mine is fairly cheap to run. Internally there is just a blower and thats it. While a simple vent would wok better we are looking at another two holes in the brickwork for that ontop of the two holes for the hrv, ontop of the hole for the ac unit, and another for the electrical to the condenser.

As far non corrosion of the AC unit I'm still worried about this. Yes I know that only water evporates. The problem is that I was Chemical Engineer for a short period of time (lasted all of 2 years in schooling

and I know that its entirely possible for salt water to vaporize into tiny bubbles and float about. The more agitation the more likely this is possible. This is where salt creep comes from when its 10 feet away from your tank

Now I could put a foam filter on the intake to catch most of this but we are talking mold central, plus I still am not keen of same of the salt making it into the HVAC ductwork. It gives me the willies.

Am I missing something?

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 09:07 PM

To each, their own......

While I don't live on or near the coast anywhere I would think that it would be a common problem in those areas and we'd be hearing from folks saying much the same thing.

capncapo · 11/06/2007, 09:20 PM

One could always use the very same set of holes used for the
HRV with a vent fan. Should be easy enough to make the transition.

wmilas · 11/07/2007, 09:08 AM

Good point on the vent holes.

How would you plumb existing hvac into a dedicated sealed fish room and when would the vents be open/run considering a powervent unit?

All the time in the summer obviously, but when in the spring/summer/winter?

capncapo · 11/07/2007, 10:10 PM

I'd take a 6" supply and return run and tap into the trunk wherever I could for the "plumbing".

Like I said before, the vents being open would be on a day to day basis depending on the weather.

Nanook · 11/07/2007, 10:14 PM

What's up old man

?

capncapo · 11/07/2007, 10:19 PM

I'm sorry, you obviously have me mistaken for some older gentleman.

capncapo · 11/07/2007, 10:19 PM

Another double post.

Nanook · 11/07/2007, 10:23 PM

I should have called you an OLD DOG

capncapo · 11/07/2007, 10:30 PM

Now if I were an old dog I would think that I might be making a puddle on your living room rug. Lucky for you, I'm not!

Nanook · 11/07/2007, 10:35 PM

Bogie would chew you up and spit you out

capncapo · 11/07/2007, 10:48 PM

I've never seen Bogie spit ANYTHING out!

atvdave · 12/01/2007, 09:13 PM

first, I stumbled across this thread doing a search on dehumidify.

Capncapo, sense your in the HVAC industry I was hoping you can help me.

I built a small insulated sump box in my garage. I ran my supply & return pipes through the wall to get rid of the sump noise in my living room.

Just after 2 week I have water beading up and running out of my sump box and the wood is just saturated with water. For some dumb reason I never thought about venting out the moisture.

NOW.. My sump box is right next to my HVAC unit in my garage. I have gas heat, and the unit also has a hole house humidifier installed on the return line. I can easily disconnect the humidifier if need be, I really don't need it. Is there a way to connect my HVAC into my sump box to keep it somewhat dry?

Will the gas heat do anything to my tank? or will the humidity do anything harmful to my HVAC system?

My garage is not insulated and my kids keep the garage open most of the time. With that said my garage get very cold in the winter, and very hot in the summer, I really don't want to vent my house heat, or AC out in to uninsulated garage.

Do I have hope or should I just bulldoze the sump box and put the sump back under the tank stand?

Thanks for your time
Dave

jakano · 01/22/2008, 07:02 AM

Hey Cap Quick Question for you. I read this thread but I noticed something odd. In one portion you mentioned this would work with a 90% efficient furnace but in a totally seperate posting you say that a furnace with this rating will do nothing to reduce humidity in your home.

My furnace has an energy star rating of 92.3 so I assume this is its efficiency, which means this mod will do nothing for me. Is this correct or am I missing something? My basement is getting a little damp and this sounded like the perfect fix for me but I'm not sure i can do it now.

capncapo · 01/22/2008, 10:03 AM

SOME 90% furnaces get their exhaust air from the inside of the the home while others have an intake that brings fresh air in from outdoors to be used as exhaust air. Some can be set up either way.

If you pull your exhaust air from indoors you will be getting rid of some humidity but I wouldn't rely on it being anywhere near enough to eliminate a problem.

If you have only a single run of PVC going to the outdoors then you're using indoor air for exhaust. Two runs indicate that you're bringing fresh air in to be used as exhaust.

I'd be looking at an HRV if I were you....or at least a vent fan and fresh air intake.

jakano · 01/22/2008, 11:27 AM

Thanks I Cap Ill have to check that out when I get home. I know I have a single pvc run to vent the exhaust gas but not sure if I have two or not.

11/06/2007, 05:29 PM	#251
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	There was a HVAC "show" here in St. Louis about a month ago. While attending, I stopped by the booth of every manufacturer who makes ERVs and asked them about their products. Not a single one of the reps could tell me that they recommended using an ERV in my area because of the high humidity levels in the summer. ERVs should not be trying to dehumidify the air from the house. They should be trying to dehumidify the incoming air while also trying to exchange the heat to the outgoing air. On another note....those who are concerned about harming their furnaces should not be worried about it unless they are drawing salt spray into their ductwork. As long as the return is far enough away from the tank, the possibility of salt getting into the ductwork is very minimal. Salt doesn't evaporate along with the water. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one? Last edited by capncapo; 11/06/2007 at 05:36 PM.

11/06/2007, 06:15 PM	#253
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Furnaces in places like New Orleans stay in humidity like that the whole time that they are used. Seems like most of the ones I've seen down there are mounted in the attics of homes and because of that are in high humidity and heat year round. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/06/2007, 07:30 PM	#255
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Why would you want to run a Heat Retaining Ventilator in summer? They are designed to do just that....retain heat in the house. A separate mini-split system can definitely help. A duct into the return of your furnace will help also but I would recommend that you also run a supply from the furnace into the fish room just to "pressureize the room a bit. It will help the return to draw air better. I'm not a big fan of running dehumidifiers in the summer. They create unnecessary heat. While vents with dampers between the fish room and living space may make the fish room a bit more tolerable you'll just be spreading the misery to the living space. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/06/2007, 07:30 PM	#256
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Duplicate post __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one? Last edited by capncapo; 11/06/2007 at 08:05 PM.

11/06/2007, 08:13 PM	#257
Oldtimer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Grosse Pointe, MI Posts: 404	My idea was to run the HRV in the winter since cool/dry air is plentiful then. I thought of having an ERV (vs. HRV) for the summer based on this quote until I saw your feedback... "The most popular design of ERVs utilizes a desiccant wheel to remove both heat and a significant amount of moisture from the incoming air, which reduces the load on the air-conditioning system." I'll plan to run both supply/return if I route fish room air to the furnace - thx. My concept of installing the vents between the equipment room and the rest of the basement is to have the option in case I ever need it but ultimately keep air flowing through the room to avoid pH fluctuations. Perhaps there's a more efficient way to do this - ? I guess I don't expect the A/C to be working all the time. __________________ Profilux Plus II Ex, Bubble King 300 Deluxe Ext, Tunze + Vortech, 3x250w 12k Reeflux + 2x80w T5, Fuge, Frag Tank, Twin Sump, Sequence Dart Gold, Fish room, etc Building the Reef, One piece at a time. Current Tank Info: 240 g Display, 450 g total system SPS dominated Reef.

11/06/2007, 06:12 PM	#252
steve the plumb Moved On Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 3,664	humidity will ruin a furnace.My gas furnace was 6 years old and was rotted out due to humidity in the room.My tank is no where near the furnace room and I have radiators (old home) for some reason there is humidity in my furnace room and my furnace didn't last as long as it should have.I will place a dehumidifier in the furnace room because I already see that I am getting a white residue on my new furnace(this is what happens when the furnace room is humid) the furnace will have to be cleaned.I don't know why this is happening but the fish room is a concern to me in the summer.

11/06/2007, 08:21 PM	#258
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	The best way to keep the pH fluctuations in check is to have a fresh air intake. Something you might want to consider is having a small intake that would supply air to your skimmer only. It could possibly raise your water temp a bit but could be well worth it. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/06/2007, 09:02 PM	#260
wmilas Keep magnets 9" apart! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lemont, Il Posts: 1,023	Everyone agrees that an air conditioner, if you can afford it is great because it both lowers temp and lowers humidity. Great. The problem arises with the dehumidifier. In a partly cold climate there are times when the air outside is both cold and too humid. Its in this case when the dehumidifier is nice... I think. As why use a hrv instead of a simple vent? Well in the wintertime the HRV is a big winner. In the summertime the HRV will hardly be used because its most often more humid outside. That leaves spring and fall. In these cases if its less humid outside and cold and you need to dump heat also, the hrv will be sub-optimal, but will still work, will just need to run longer to dump the heat. I think mine is a 85% efficient model, which seems to be pretty up there. Run it long enough and it will eventually dump enough heat. Mine is fairly cheap to run. Internally there is just a blower and thats it. While a simple vent would wok better we are looking at another two holes in the brickwork for that ontop of the two holes for the hrv, ontop of the hole for the ac unit, and another for the electrical to the condenser. As far non corrosion of the AC unit I'm still worried about this. Yes I know that only water evporates. The problem is that I was Chemical Engineer for a short period of time (lasted all of 2 years in schooling and I know that its entirely possible for salt water to vaporize into tiny bubbles and float about. The more agitation the more likely this is possible. This is where salt creep comes from when its 10 feet away from your tank Now I could put a foam filter on the intake to catch most of this but we are talking mold central, plus I still am not keen of same of the salt making it into the HVAC ductwork. It gives me the willies. Am I missing something?

11/06/2007, 09:07 PM	#261
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	To each, their own...... While I don't live on or near the coast anywhere I would think that it would be a common problem in those areas and we'd be hearing from folks saying much the same thing. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/06/2007, 09:20 PM	#262
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	One could always use the very same set of holes used for the HRV with a vent fan. Should be easy enough to make the transition. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/07/2007, 09:08 AM	#263
wmilas Keep magnets 9" apart! Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lemont, Il Posts: 1,023	Good point on the vent holes. How would you plumb existing hvac into a dedicated sealed fish room and when would the vents be open/run considering a powervent unit? All the time in the summer obviously, but when in the spring/summer/winter?

11/07/2007, 10:10 PM	#264
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	I'd take a 6" supply and return run and tap into the trunk wherever I could for the "plumbing". Like I said before, the vents being open would be on a day to day basis depending on the weather. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/07/2007, 10:14 PM	#265
Nanook Ancient Eskimo Legend Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Saint Louis, MO Posts: 41,852 Blog Entries: 11	What's up old man? __________________ The wind blew, the chit flew, and then they came two by two. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Current Tank Info: 375g Tanganyikan Tank & 470g mixed reef

11/07/2007, 10:19 PM	#266
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	I'm sorry, you obviously have me mistaken for some older gentleman. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/07/2007, 10:19 PM	#267
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Another double post. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/07/2007, 10:23 PM	#268
Nanook Ancient Eskimo Legend Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Saint Louis, MO Posts: 41,852 Blog Entries: 11	I should have called you an OLD DOG __________________ The wind blew, the chit flew, and then they came two by two. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Current Tank Info: 375g Tanganyikan Tank & 470g mixed reef

11/07/2007, 10:30 PM	#269
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Now if I were an old dog I would think that I might be making a puddle on your living room rug. Lucky for you, I'm not! __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

11/07/2007, 10:35 PM	#270
Nanook Ancient Eskimo Legend Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Saint Louis, MO Posts: 41,852 Blog Entries: 11	Bogie would chew you up and spit you out __________________ The wind blew, the chit flew, and then they came two by two. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Current Tank Info: 375g Tanganyikan Tank & 470g mixed reef

11/07/2007, 10:48 PM	#271
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	I've never seen Bogie spit ANYTHING out! __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

12/01/2007, 09:13 PM	#272
atvdave Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Newburgh, IN Posts: 1,763	first, I stumbled across this thread doing a search on dehumidify. Capncapo, sense your in the HVAC industry I was hoping you can help me. I built a small insulated sump box in my garage. I ran my supply & return pipes through the wall to get rid of the sump noise in my living room. Just after 2 week I have water beading up and running out of my sump box and the wood is just saturated with water. For some dumb reason I never thought about venting out the moisture. NOW.. My sump box is right next to my HVAC unit in my garage. I have gas heat, and the unit also has a hole house humidifier installed on the return line. I can easily disconnect the humidifier if need be, I really don't need it. Is there a way to connect my HVAC into my sump box to keep it somewhat dry? Will the gas heat do anything to my tank? or will the humidity do anything harmful to my HVAC system? My garage is not insulated and my kids keep the garage open most of the time. With that said my garage get very cold in the winter, and very hot in the summer, I really don't want to vent my house heat, or AC out in to uninsulated garage. Do I have hope or should I just bulldoze the sump box and put the sump back under the tank stand? Thanks for your time Dave

01/22/2008, 07:02 AM	#273
jakano Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: columbus ohio Posts: 1,562	Hey Cap Quick Question for you. I read this thread but I noticed something odd. In one portion you mentioned this would work with a 90% efficient furnace but in a totally seperate posting you say that a furnace with this rating will do nothing to reduce humidity in your home. My furnace has an energy star rating of 92.3 so I assume this is its efficiency, which means this mod will do nothing for me. Is this correct or am I missing something? My basement is getting a little damp and this sounded like the perfect fix for me but I'm not sure i can do it now.

01/22/2008, 10:03 AM	#274
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	SOME 90% furnaces get their exhaust air from the inside of the the home while others have an intake that brings fresh air in from outdoors to be used as exhaust air. Some can be set up either way. If you pull your exhaust air from indoors you will be getting rid of some humidity but I wouldn't rely on it being anywhere near enough to eliminate a problem. If you have only a single run of PVC going to the outdoors then you're using indoor air for exhaust. Two runs indicate that you're bringing fresh air in to be used as exhaust. I'd be looking at an HRV if I were you....or at least a vent fan and fresh air intake. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one? Last edited by capncapo; 01/22/2008 at 10:10 AM.

01/22/2008, 11:27 AM	#275
jakano Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: columbus ohio Posts: 1,562	Thanks I Cap Ill have to check that out when I get home. I know I have a single pvc run to vent the exhaust gas but not sure if I have two or not.