N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[daveonbass]

sirreal: I agree. But again I am kind of the test subject for SWC. If they don't want me to dose bacteria yet, then I won't. If they don't want me to add the old pellets yet, then I won't. Sooooo, I'm just waiting for them to cut me loose. Haha

[sirreal63]

Seems they don't do their own R&D...they are depending on you to do it for them.

[daveonbass]

kind of...they are using the same pellets that NP switched to. So they should both be the same....and NP did the initial R&D. Mine is just interesting to them because they DON'T seem to work, and they want to figure out why. So yeah I'm a rAd test bed for the new product...the new product that works fine for most people. Go figure. And bare in mind that I need time to let this all sit and run it's course. Doseing TODAY wouldn't instantly cause these to activate.

[Yogre]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Seems they don't do their own R&D...they are depending on you to do it for them.

Sho nuff.

I too have a tank that has not responded to the original N/P Biopellet formulation, if anyone wants me to be a guinea pig for a different formulation.


Dave, no disrespect intended... we need some research done on this stuff... I'd like to see some more controlled conditions, though.

[daveonbass]

I agree...mine is not a control experiment, but it is a real world test. I can't be any more controlled...i gotta still reef it up in there. But again, others have had such great success...we just wanna know why me and a few others are exceptions...?

[jlinzmaier]

Dave if anyone is using your experimentation as R and D then they must be out of their mind. You've been anxiously awaiting to call these biopellets a gimmick from the get go.

I would love to see any R and D info from any manufacturer or distributor. There is a huge difference between any factual and evidence based studies and what someone wants to spew out there to make the product they're selling sound appealing. The info on the NP biopellet website is nothing more than hypothesis and good marketing. That guy is a distributor - not a developer, researcher, or manufacturer. He makes money by buying these pellets in bulk and packing them in small packages to sell the the aquarium industry. That's it!

These pellets are NOT made for the aquarium industry. There is no documented studies on their use in aquaria. People are taking marketing hype for fact and that is the worst thing we as reefers can do. Unfortunately, the users of these pellets and the experiences they report are the closest thing to any factual evidence we have to develop an opinion on their function at this point.

Dave, your little experimentation may be useful in your own little world, however I think you have the mindset in calling these pellets a hoax and you seem to disagree with suggestion that might make them work. Everytime a suggestion is provided to aid in their function you fall back on the excuse we've heard over and over again - the package doesn't say I need to do anything other than put the pellets in a reactor - or - nothing says I need to do this or that or anything else.

Unfortunately, IMO, this very helpful and informative thread has been sucked into the "Dave story" and his attempt to use biopellets and completely reject any suggestions to aid in their ability to perform as we all want them to.

Dave, you also continue to call your tank po4 limited buy have yet to do any po4 testing with anything other than a hobby grade test kit. You haven't even bothered to test with a photometer but you sure are quick to say your tank is po4 limited. That makes a lot of sense.

I'm actually tired of reading this thread because there is such few responses from people who have implemented the use of biopellets and so many responses of people trying to help Dave while he completely rejects any sort of suggestion to remedy the lack of nitrate reduction from the pellets. Just be done with it Dave. You're dead set on calling them a gimmick so just do it and stop wasting peoples time by baiting them by saying the pellets don't work, and you can't figure out why, then rejecting any and all suggestions for improving their function.

If they don't work for you Dave then they must be a gimmick. There's simply no other explanation!! I mean what sort of idiot would take any suggestions from experts on marine biology and reef aquaria to try to make these pellets work. That would just be rediculous.

Jeremy

[drummereef]

Dave - I still think you are missing the point and may need to do some more research on carbon dosing in general. The pellets do nothing by themselves and cannot be "activated" as you say. Same with Vodka dosing, rice, or any other organic carbon source you can think of. It's just food for bacteria, plain and simple. That's it! - there is no magic. It's the bacteria that drives the ship. All the pellets provide is a constant source for food and a place to gather and multiply. The more bacteria, the more denitrification takes place. This isn't as complicated as people are making it.

[Moser]

Originally Posted by Yogre

Mo, compared to the biofilm that exists on our substrate (sand, rock, decor, even pumps etc.) the amount of bacteria in the water column is pretty low is it not?

Yes, if you have an established and stable tank, in which case, nutrient levels are managed by said biofilms.

I would argue that the number of 50% water changes done in a tank that is not able to keep stable parameters is not allowing sufficient biology to develop.

Mo

[Moser]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

well my tank is stable...and still no real effect from the pellets. And I dissagree with you on the common sense part. If the people selling it say that dosing isn't nessiccary, then it shouldn't ever be needed...THAT should be what is common sense :P

1) If your tank actually is stable we would never be arguing the toss about whether these pellets work and you certainly wouldn't need to do ANY 50% water changes. Nobody can claim to have a stable tank after doing a 50% water change.

2) Thats the point!. You can't tell us where they have ever even said that dosing isn't necessary and even if they did, there can always be an exception.



Mo

[Moser]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

I don't know much/anything about VSV. But yes, I would not add bacteria while dosing vodka. It's called "vodka dosing" and not "vodka/bacteria dosing." and again I'm ignorant in this one cause I have yet to try it...but I was under the impression that the VSV was what the bacteria eats and grown in population from. So why do you need to dose more bacteria? And better yet...why dose vodka, if you can simply DIRECTLY add the bacteria you want from a bottle? Just skip the vodka. (vsv)

Knowing about the various bacterial driven systems may help a bit?

Mo

[Moser]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

mo: your second post...uhm...you just repeated what I had just said...why? That's exactly what I said. You just added the word "ever" to the statements. Same difference. Your argument can be sad for a lot of stuff...just because it's omited. But again I refer you to the specificity of the need for GFO still. Why be specific on one count and vague on the rest. I'm not buying it.

as far as my WC's. I have yet to see evidence that I am destroying the populations of bacteria. Many nano tanks thrive on near 100% WC's. Calfo has proven that this is a viable method of keeping marine tanks healthy. I'm not cleaning the BS, and I'm only changing the water...so the bacterial populations in the sand, rock, sump, and reactor are all untouched. I'm just removing water to reduce the the NO3 levels. (understandably though, some other stuff is removed, but the benfit out weighs the cost)

lastlyl try to remember that I'm doing this till the supplier tells me to stop. They and I want to see if a case like mine can ever get these to work. If it were JUST up to me I would have probably stopped them by now. But at the same time, now that I can get a bacterial bloom in just the reactor, gives me hope that one day they will wrk in the whole tank.

Did your supplier tell you to continue 50% water changes as well?.
What are you testing by mixing methodologies?.

Mo

[Moser]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

hey mo, calm down...i said "IF". No one is trying to insult anyone...I personally am just throwing out what I have observed. If they "worked" for you while still doing all the other stuff that works for others that don't use BP, then more power to you. They "dont work" for me so I'm not as easily convinced yet.

besides that was not a question directed to JUST you...i was asking the whole board.

Dave, I was calm. Simple things don't frustrate me!.

We are revisiting a conversation we had a few weeks ago and others have had with you as well.

I'm realizing that it's a pointless discussion.

Somebody posted a link to Murraycamps recent article on bacterial systems. It's a good read?!!.

Mo

[Rwpdunne]

This is a great read

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...cs-demystified

[tntneon]

A great , must read , article Rwpdune !!

[davyr]

Originally Posted by drummereef

daveonbass and davyr - have you or are you dosing any bacteria such as MB7?

No i have'nt been dosing anything like that just chucked them in the reactor.I am getting the bacterial strings inside the reactor but as such no reduction in nitrates. When i first started using the NP pellets my trates dropped from 25 down til 10 but below 10 and i am fighting a losing battle.

[goochesfish]

My Nitrates are .2 on the saliefert test kit and phosphates zero on the new hanna photometer but I still have a couple of tufts of hair algae. Just bought a nextreef reactor and NP biopellets to try. I want to be able to feed my livestock without getting more hair algae.

[Moser]

Originally Posted by Rwpdunne

This is a great read

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...cs-demystified

Thanks, that would be the one....

For those who are using pellets, but don't know how Zeo works or Vodka dosing, please read this.

It's good to have some insight into what you are doing and why, before jumping in. It certainly helps when trying to troubleshoot, or to think laterally when trying to get a system working for you.

Mo

[Moser]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

Dave if anyone is using your experimentation as R and D then they must be out of their mind. You've been anxiously awaiting to call these biopellets a gimmick from the get go.

I would love to see any R and D info from any manufacturer or distributor. There is a huge difference between any factual and evidence based studies and what someone wants to spew out there to make the product they're selling sound appealing. The info on the NP biopellet website is nothing more than hypothesis and good marketing. That guy is a distributor - not a developer, researcher, or manufacturer. He makes money by buying these pellets in bulk and packing them in small packages to sell the the aquarium industry. That's it!

These pellets are NOT made for the aquarium industry. There is no documented studies on their use in aquaria. People are taking marketing hype for fact and that is the worst thing we as reefers can do. Unfortunately, the users of these pellets and the experiences they report are the closest thing to any factual evidence we have to develop an opinion on their function at this point.

Dave, your little experimentation may be useful in your own little world, however I think you have the mindset in calling these pellets a hoax and you seem to disagree with suggestion that might make them work. Everytime a suggestion is provided to aid in their function you fall back on the excuse we've heard over and over again - the package doesn't say I need to do anything other than put the pellets in a reactor - or - nothing says I need to do this or that or anything else.

Unfortunately, IMO, this very helpful and informative thread has been sucked into the "Dave story" and his attempt to use biopellets and completely reject any suggestions to aid in their ability to perform as we all want them to.

Dave, you also continue to call your tank po4 limited buy have yet to do any po4 testing with anything other than a hobby grade test kit. You haven't even bothered to test with a photometer but you sure are quick to say your tank is po4 limited. That makes a lot of sense.

I'm actually tired of reading this thread because there is such few responses from people who have implemented the use of biopellets and so many responses of people trying to help Dave while he completely rejects any sort of suggestion to remedy the lack of nitrate reduction from the pellets. Just be done with it Dave. You're dead set on calling them a gimmick so just do it and stop wasting peoples time by baiting them by saying the pellets don't work, and you can't figure out why, then rejecting any and all suggestions for improving their function.

If they don't work for you Dave then they must be a gimmick. There's simply no other explanation!! I mean what sort of idiot would take any suggestions from experts on marine biology and reef aquaria to try to make these pellets work. That would just be rediculous.

Jeremy

+1

If I had read this earlier, it would have saved me all of those posts!.

Also, I find it utterly ridiculous that an apparently respectable company would showcase a system to demonstrate their product, when the system has apparently already failed with a similar product and the owner of said system has admitted having little to no knowledge of bacterial driven systems and shows little interest in attempting to obtain this knowledge.

So what gives.... any references to the request to showcase your system?


Mo

[izzy123]

Originally Posted by Moser

+1

If I had read this earlier, it would have saved me all of those posts!.

Also, I find it utterly ridiculous that an apparently respectable company would showcase a system to demonstrate their product, when the system has apparently already failed with a similar product and the owner of said system has admitted having little to no knowledge of bacterial driven systems and shows little interest in attempting to obtain this knowledge.

So what gives.... any references to the request to showcase your system?


Mo

Okay, okay I understand your point of view, and I can't say that I disagree, but this is not what this thread is about IMO!

But I tend to agree with "daveonbass" (and with the chemguru Randy) that you should not need to "jumpstart" N/P pellets with bacteria.

I have some expierience with FW and I NEVER added bacteria to get things started!!

Maybe it would help to speed up the process, but that's about it IMO.

It has been a while since I read something from the other "testers" tho, so what's up...... did you all stop using it??

Thanks

[philbo32]

+1 to jlinzmaier

Originally Posted by izzy123

Okay, okay I understand your point of view, and I can't say that I disagree, but this is not what this thread is about IMO!

But I tend to agree with "daveonbass" (and with the chemguru Randy) that you should not need to "jumpstart" N/P pellets with bacteria.

I have some expierience with FW and I NEVER added bacteria to get things started!!

Maybe it would help to speed up the process, but that's about it IMO.

It has been a while since I read something from the other "testers" tho, so what's up...... did you all stop using it??

Thanks

It isn't a jump start that is needed but a shift in dominant bacterial species. The majority of tanks do not need to be dosed with the correct bacteria as they have good a bacterial balance, but a few people do have problems and this has also been seen with other types of carbon dosing. By dosing bacteria in these circumstances has helped change and improve the balance of bacteria in there systems.

Did you dose organic carbon for the removal of nitrate and phosphate in your freshwater system? Its usually the opposite when you have plants involved, plus you tend not to try to acheive an ULNS in freshwater systems is all I'm getting at.

[Moser]

Originally Posted by izzy123

But I tend to agree with "daveonbass" (and with the chemguru Randy) that you should not need to "jumpstart" N/P pellets with bacteria.

Agreed, in most cases you don't need to.

I have used them for nearly 7 months. I didn't jump start them, I just left them for a few months and didn't test anything. Then one day BLAM. I tested and nitrates were zero for the first time in the history of the tank.

Posphates were up to 0.5, so I added rowaphos and that came down. I tested yesterday after 3 weeks in case I needed to change out and phos measures zero. I might leave for another week and remove and then wait for a rise. If they go back up, then add some rowaphos, if they don't, then obviously the pellets are holding them!.

Last 2 months I have added Zeo and colours are starting to pop nicely, with great polyp extension.

I just did what it said on the tin. No increased water changes, no fiddling with the tank, no adjustments to flow etc etc.

They can work, but if they need supplementing with bacteria etc, then so be it. My guess is that most pellet companies who wish to capitalise on this will introduce a bacterial supplement and subsquently a few trace solutions.

I hear that Brightwell have introduced some pellets too and given they already do the NeoZeo and many use microbacter already, they have the whole pellet system ready to market and should blow this side of the market out of the water.

If I were Chris Brightwell, I would add the introductory pellet system to the catalogue with the intermediate system being addition of elements and the advanced system remaining the zeolite based system.

Nobody else is as well placed as Brightwell to deliver on this IMO.

Mo

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by Moser

Nobody else is as well placed as Brightwell to deliver on this IMO.

Mo

Before you jump on the Brightwell bandwagon here's a link to Randy's comments on Brightwell products.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1762160&highlight=brightwell

Randy doesn't provide just an opinion, but rather completely shows how Chris is incorrect in the marketing claims of his products and how incorrect Chris is on the information he posts as facts. Good marketing and talking in scientific terms doesn't mean anything if what you're stating is wrong.

Just an FYI for those of us who get caught up in marketing hype (myself included). Good marketing is a bad thing for reefers!

Jeremy

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by Moser

...

Last 2 months I have added Zeo and colours are starting to pop nicely, with great polyp extension...
Mo

hi Moser ,

do you mean you have added zeo stones to your reactor , or do you use the whole list of zeo products in combination with BP's ?

greetingzz tntneon

[daveonbass]

well I can take a hint...from now on I will only post what I AM doing...I'll leave the "discussion" to the people that are in the "working" club.

right now I restarted them up again for the second time. The first time was after one day off and allowed to get cloudy, didn't work. This second time is after two days off and clouding up...and the next will be three days gone.

after that I will see what SWC recommends me to do...

[philbo32]

Hi Daveonbass,

To be honest, I can't see that adding more pellets will help at all, and the cloudiness you have described within your pellet reactor sounds like bacteria and/or fungi, but likely not the correct type of bacteria because as you have stated nitrate is the same.

I know the manufacturers haven't recommended this so you'll probably ignore me, but you could try running the pump to the reactor on a timer going off every couple of hours and then on for a couple of hours (like with zeovit when you start dosing). This allows the reactor to go anaerobic without it going anoxic (obviously you don't want it to go anoxic and cause sulphate bacteria) to give the anaerobic denitifying bacteria a more favorable environment for nitrate reduction, just a thought. To begin with I would try intervals of off for 1 hour and on for 1 hour for a few days and see if anything happens parameters wise.