Algae Scrubber Advanced

[jasonrstewart79]

I'm trying to decide on sourcing for lighting on an ATS experiment that I've been thinking about. Specifically looking for 3 things:

1.) 12-15" t5 fixture, if available
2.) 12" LED panel fixture, red/red blue under $100 price range
3.) A CFL fixture that could be mounted horizontally with an overall height of <3"

Can anyone help me with this... Google searches have given some leads but I know there are some fellow ATS builders that use smaller t5 and small CFL fixtures. I think I can source LEDs pretty well.

[kcress]

Originally Posted by xtinataguba

this is a good stuff! im glad i read this, but anybody knows angle scrubbers?

Head over to the "Basics" thread.
Mine is at post 4301 with comments at 4303.

[duganderson]

I added a HOG.5 Upflow Algae Scrubber to my 28 g. nano about 5 weeks ago. It is starting to work.....

I had a few questions.....

1. Why do scrubbers take so many weeks to work well?

2. After the first cleaning, it seems like folks report improved growth and filtration on the 2nd and 3rd cleanings. What is changing that leads to even better growth over time?

3. Why do you get a nutrient spike after cleaning if new growth is starting right away? What nutrients tend to spike and for how long?

4. The screen on my upflow alage scrubber is very small (approx. 3" wide by 4" tall). Does anyone have experience trying to limit the nurtient spike by cleaning only 1/2 the screen at a time OR is the spike really not worth worrying about???

5. Is another option to reduce the nurtrient spike to imperfectly scrape the screen and leave some algae on the whole thing OR is it better to leave some of the long growth on the screen in spots.

6. Are there any good research type articles that explain what types of nutrients, metals, etc. are removed by scrubber or how this happens?

Any resources, links, articles to help me understand this stuff appreciated.

Thanks, Doug

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by duganderson

I added a HOG.5 Upflow Algae Scrubber to my 28 g. nano about 5 weeks ago. It is starting to work.....

I had a few questions.....

1. Why do scrubbers take so many weeks to work well?

Freshwater scrubbers start growing very fast and usually go straight to green. Growth is very thin, silk-like strands and the growth is generally not 3D.

Saltwater algae seems to need a surface to build up to anchor to. The screen basically needs to develop a very thin calcified layer (for lack of a better term) upon which the algae will root. This substance is similar to what forms inside your plumbing - kind of a brown stain layer almost. It is my opinion that this layer is actually the roughness that the algae binds to - not the roughed-up screen itself. But you need a LOT of surface area for this calcified layer to form on, and it must be varied enough that the calcified layer does not easily break away.

This process takes time in SW and there's really not a darn thing you can do about it.

The first layer that usually forms is diatoms and/or dinoflagellates. This is because the plastic canvas is sort of like food for bacteria, similar to a rubbermaid container (as revealed by Sanjay Joshi in one of his carbon dosing articles/studies). Try placing a piece of canvas in your sump somewhere and you will grow dinos like nuts on it. The algae eventually takes over this "real estate" though.

From my personal experience, my UAS seemed to take a very long time to get going. So long that I thought it was worthless. I have had waterfall scrubbers grow to full green screens in 2-3 weeks, my UAS took literally months of messing around, but that was right after it was revealed. It grows well now but still seems to take forever to fill in the screen after cleaning. I am not sold yet.

Originally Posted by duganderson

2. After the first cleaning, it seems like folks report improved growth and filtration on the 2nd and 3rd cleanings. What is changing that leads to even better growth over time?

Growth gets better as the algae roots in more places. Per above.

Originally Posted by duganderson

3. Why do you get a nutrient spike after cleaning if new growth is starting right away? What nutrients tend to spike and for how long?

Algae grows exponentially. When you scrape the algae off, it has to start over again. So you have a bit more limited filtration capacity at first.

Originally Posted by duganderson

4. The screen on my upflow alage scrubber is very small (approx. 3" wide by 4" tall). Does anyone have experience trying to limit the nurtient spike by cleaning only 1/2 the screen at a time OR is the spike really not worth worrying about???

IMO the spike is not worth worrying about unless you start to notice a particular pattern of problems that can be directly linked to the frequency of screen cleaning. As in, for 2 days after you clean the screen, XYZ coral is unhappy. Try cleaning 1/2 of screen every 4 days and see what happens. Everyone's system is different so you just have to see how yours responds. There is a fair amount of unknown connections between scrubbers, cleaning periods, and reactions from certain corals. For instance, I have a hard time keeping birdsnests, frogspawn, and hammers. Others have no problems.

Originally Posted by duganderson

5. Is another option to reduce the nurtrient spike to imperfectly scrape the screen and leave some algae on the whole thing OR is it better to leave some of the long growth on the screen in spots.

a partial cleaning is fine.

Originally Posted by duganderson

6. Are there any good research type articles that explain what types of nutrients, metals, etc. are removed by scrubber or how this happens?

Any resources, links, articles to help me understand this stuff appreciated.

Thanks, Doug

Search for wastewater treatment and algae. Lots of papers out there, not sure how much applies to us.

[blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Freshwater scrubbers start growing very fast and usually go straight to green. Growth is very thin, silk-like strands and the growth is generally not 3D.

Saltwater algae seems to need a surface to build up to anchor to. The screen basically needs to develop a very thin calcified layer (for lack of a better term) upon which the algae will root. This substance is similar to what forms inside your plumbing - kind of a brown stain layer almost. It is my opinion that this layer is actually the roughness that the algae binds to - not the roughed-up screen itself. But you need a LOT of surface area for this calcified layer to form on, and it must be varied enough that the calcified layer does not easily break away.

This process takes time in SW and there's really not a darn thing you can do about it.

The first layer that usually forms is diatoms and/or dinoflagellates. This is because the plastic canvas is sort of like food for bacteria, similar to a rubbermaid container (as revealed by Sanjay Joshi in one of his carbon dosing articles/studies). Try placing a piece of canvas in your sump somewhere and you will grow dinos like nuts on it. The algae eventually takes over this "real estate" though.

From my personal experience, my UAS seemed to take a very long time to get going. So long that I thought it was worthless. I have had waterfall scrubbers grow to full green screens in 2-3 weeks, my UAS took literally months of messing around, but that was right after it was revealed. It grows well now but still seems to take forever to fill in the screen after cleaning. I am not sold yet.



Growth gets better as the algae roots in more places. Per above.



Algae grows exponentially. When you scrape the algae off, it has to start over again. So you have a bit more limited filtration capacity at first.



IMO the spike is not worth worrying about unless you start to notice a particular pattern of problems that can be directly linked to the frequency of screen cleaning. As in, for 2 days after you clean the screen, XYZ coral is unhappy. Try cleaning 1/2 of screen every 4 days and see what happens. Everyone's system is different so you just have to see how yours responds. There is a fair amount of unknown connections between scrubbers, cleaning periods, and reactions from certain corals. For instance, I have a hard time keeping birdsnests, frogspawn, and hammers. Others have no problems.



a partial cleaning is fine.



Search for wastewater treatment and algae. Lots of papers out there, not sure how much applies to us.

Hey floyd could you comment on my DIY ATS setup please: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2261943 want to know if I got the setup parameters ( flow, lighting etc..) Correct?

p.s. I loved your designs

[_shorty_]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

There is a fair amount of unknown connections between scrubbers, cleaning periods, and reactions from certain corals. For instance, I have a hard time keeping birdsnests, frogspawn, and hammers. Others have no problems.

Interesting. So far my SPS seems happy and growing in my tank - my birdsnest and LPS like torch and frogspawns are good. In fact, I've been nursing a couple back to health from a friend who was losing them, and they seem to be comign back nicely. I have problems, though, with acans and zoas. My tank is still young though so I can't say definitively that any coral does great in my tank yet... but just thought your comment was interesting.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have good luck with acans, but zoas seem hit or miss. Some love it, some hate it - in the same tank. I am not a huge zoa fan anyways so no loss but I found that interesting. I had one colony that grew like nuts and another that I couldn't get to open up.

[duganderson]

Interesting.....my scrubber is fairly new, but I've noticed that the following three things are doing better in my tank since the scrubber....frogspawn, zoas and RBTA. Hopefully this continues.

[_shorty_]

I just got a RBTA and he also seems to be loving life.

[ChrisOaty]

I have a 40g breeder with a 29 sump reef system. I set up my sump for maximum volume and to include 2 column style chambers (one up flow, one down flow) for filter media baskets (GFO tray, carbon tray). The main chamber in my sump overflows a single piece of glass that falls into the final pump chamber. I've devised a way to attach the plastic canvas to that final glass baffle that nets me a total of 96 square inches (12x8) that sits about 7 inches away from a 4.24" x 9" heat sink designed for up to 12 LEDs. Currently there are 12 3w LEDs with a color temperature of around 5k scaled down to about 1/3 power. Here are some sketchup pics that I've drawn up. I'd take some real pictures, but the sump is sitting in the cabinet in the garage right now.





My questions are:
1) since this is a single-sided scrubber, do I still have to adhere to the 35gph/inch wide scrubber?
2) I've ordered four 3w red LEDs to put on the heatsink. Should I just run those 4 reds, or should I continue running all 12 (4 red, 8 warm white).
3) With either of these LED setups, how many hours per night should I run the light?

I want to thank you for your time in reading and considering my concerns. I hope you take the time to respond. The reason I've attempted my scrubber in such a fashion is because I simply don't have a lot of space above my sump because it is so tall in comparison to the space in my cabinet. I'll attempt an up-flow scrubber in the back of the main chamber if I can't get this to work out, but for right now, my current system is set up to work this way.

[SantaMonica]

Why do scrubbers take so many weeks to work well?

Attachment.

Plastic canvas is coated with mold-release (wax), and this stuff needs to be degraded away before algae attaches well (washing with soap will help too). Also, slippery plastic is used to make the canvas, so as to allow sewing needles and yarn to easily slide through the holes. These two things have been solved in my next scrubber version; they are harder to diy but they provide much faster and stronger attachment in fw and sw, and they leave a good bit of growth behind automatically.

[sunilp]

Here is how i got mine mounted from Bud.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2263486

[_shorty_]

In light of a couple recent thread reads here in the advanced forum on phosphates and phosphate cycle - I've come up with a question that's actually been bothering me for a while...

Cyanobacteria's relationship with Phosphates and how the scrubber affects this? I've read people post that intruduction of an algae scrubber not only disolved GHA in their DT, but that it also removed Cyanobacteria from thier system.

I've also posted questions before on Cyano - and I've actually recently got the response: 'just run an algae scrubber'.

However - unless I just don't fully understand what I've read recently (which is probable) - Algae scrubbers, really shouldn't 'remove'/out compete the cyano, should they?

Algae scrubbers - in the phosphate cycle mostly eat up the disolved inorganic phosphates (which are the phosphate levels we test for and are the less desireable PO4 levels in our tanks). So if you export those and reduce measurable PO4 levels to near 0, you could still have lots of Organic Phosphates left in your system, right? According to the cycle diagram that was posted, it seems that algae will still 'eat' disolved organic phosphates but not as much as it goes after the inorganics... Is that correct?

Isn't the Cyano able feed off of these disolved Organic Phosphates? If that's all correct - there's a gap there that the scrubber just doesn't cover. So, a skimmer would target the organic phosphates only (which we want some level of to maintain healthy coral)? GFO targets inorganic phosphates only. And regular detritus removal is the root of reducing the source of all forms of PO4.

In addition - how would you maintain healthy levels of the organic PO4 for corals, without letting Cyano thrive?

[SantaMonica]

you could still have lots of Organic Phosphates left in your system, right?

Yes, they are called food.

it seems that algae will still 'eat' disolved organic phosphates

No, algae does not eat organics. It leaves that food in the water for the corals and fish.

Isn't the Cyano able feed off of these disolved Organic Phosphates?

No, cyano eat Inorganic N and P just like algae, but it can also get N from the water.

So, a skimmer would target the organic phosphates only

Correct; a skimmer only removes food particles, but leaves all the Inorganic N and P in the water.

GFO targets inorganic phosphates only.

Yes, which is why it can slow down a scrubber.

And regular detritus removal is the root of reducing the source of all forms of PO4.

Regular food particle (detritus) removal requires you to buy more food particles from the store, and put them in the tank. Better to just stir up the food particles (detritus) so they can be eaten.

organic PO4

It's really organic phosphorus.

[_shorty_]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

No, cyano eat Inorganic N and P just like algae, but it can also get N from the water.

Okay - that basically answers my main questions right there. Something I read made me assume that the organic phosphorus could be taken up by the Cyano. Thanks for the reply.

[SantaMonica]

What does happen, is that food particles settle on the sand and decompose and provide C and P to the cyano, which then grow on the sand because the cyano gets its own N easily. So pointing a powerhead at the sand kicks up the food particles and stops this from happening.

Of course if you are scrubbing strong enough, there will not be enough P for cyano to easily grow.

[moatdaddy]

Installed scrubber all cyano gone.

[_shorty_]

Originally Posted by moatdaddy

Installed scrubber all cyano gone.

Do you run a skimmer too?

[scolley]

Originally Posted by duganderson

5. Is another option to reduce the nurtrient spike to imperfectly scrape the screen and leave some algae on the whole thing OR is it better to leave some of the long growth on the screen in spots.

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

IMO the spike is not worth worrying about unless you start to notice a particular pattern of problems that can be directly linked to the frequency of screen cleaning. As in, for 2 days after you clean the screen, XYZ coral is unhappy. Try cleaning 1/2 of screen every 4 days and see what happens. Everyone's system is different so you just have to see how yours responds...a partial cleaning is fine.

I concur with Floyd. I've been cleaning 1/2 of my screen for quite a while now with no negative impacts that I can discern. I think - but not sure - that I've been doing that for a good year and a half now. OBVIOUSLY the algae on the uncleaned half gets longer than it would otherwise.

I assume the growth on the uncleaned portion is your limiting factor. As some point - maybe someone else can say where - your algae mat is likely to be come less efficient without being trimmed back. If so, your frequency between 1/2 cleanings can be determined by the time that it takes an uncleaned half to begin to operate at reduced efficiency.

For me - and my limited feeding - the half I clean does not even get done but every two weeks. And I've got stupid low phosphates/nitrates, and virtually zero nuisance algae. Your mileage should vary.

[acroman]

I built one that's a bit different... I believe it combines the benefits of the dumping style, with the compact-ness of the waterfall type

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7uc...it?usp=sharing

[moatdaddy]

I have flooded my AtS bin and everytime my sheet gets soaked it yellows my water a little. Not sure if you will have this issue

[acroman]

Originally Posted by moatdaddy

I have flooded my AtS bin and everytime my sheet gets soaked it yellows my water a little. Not sure if you will have this issue

Flooded on accident, or set to run normally?

I figured if the upflow type works, and is submerged, so partial submersion should be ok.

Also, there is a commercial wedge-type that fills and tips, but they take up a lot of space.

[_shorty_]

Originally Posted by acroman

I built one that's a bit different... I believe it combines the benefits of the dumping style, with the compact-ness of the waterfall type

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7uc...it?usp=sharing

What are some of the bennifets of the 'dump style' that you are aware of? I know Inland aquatics in Terre Haute has a patent on one of those large dump styles that they use for a large system. The guy I spoke with mentioned that the air contact during that dump was 'key', but didn't really explain why. I'm assuming better absorption of the CO2, and MAYBE a side bennifet of potentially more flushing of PODs off the scrubber into the system. I've not read much on them though.

I can't see your doc from here, unfortunately. Sounds interesting.

[SantaMonica]

Any yellowing is caused by the roots dying from shading; they turn a wheat color which looks yellow in the water.

[moatdaddy]

Originally Posted by _shorty_

Do you run a skimmer too?

Yes both work very well together. I'm a heavy feeder on my 220.

Acroman I will post on your build thread