Have ICH looky here!!!!! - Page 12

H.Veras · 05/20/2009, 02:20 PM

should i do my treatment in my DT since i only got two fish's in there... no carols yet... tank is running for two months only?

Aquarist007 · 05/20/2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by H.Veras
should i do my treatment in my DT since i only got two fish's in there... no carols yet... tank is running for two months only?

You can't use copper in the display tank or all the inverts and bacteria in the sand bed and reef rock will be wiped out. You will have to take the tank down and acid wash it since copper can get in the silicon joins.

If you hyposalinate in the display tank the bacteria on the live rock and sand bed will take a hit---how much==who knows--but it will mean more cycling time again fishless.
Hyposalination will destroy all your clean up crew.

You still are better IMO setting up a small qt tank in a plastic tote with a piece of rock from the main tank, heater and small hob filter that you run three days on your display tank. You then fill the qt up with water from the display.
I would monitor the ammonia levels and be prepared to do a small water change if necessary.

All you have to do to the display tank is keep it fishless for 4 weeks which is alot less trouble and time then treating it.

As I posted before by the time you have treated the fish your tank will also be ready and ich free to accept them back

JoelNB · 05/20/2009, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by norgemorir
The yellow tang still has a 2 white spots on 1 fin. They've been there since the start

Photo....is it actually ich? Which fin are these two spots on?

norgemorir · 05/21/2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoelNB
Photo....is it actually ich? Which fin are these two spots on?

The right fin has the spots. I'll try to get a pic --previous attempts haven't been successful. What bothers me is the length of time, since I thought the Trophont stage only lasted 3-7 days --it's odd that the spot would always be in the same place for these 5 weeks now.

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Formalin is not an effective way of treating for ich--so those 14 days don't count.
nor does running the water at 1.020=1.022.
alot of reefers combine copper treatments with hyposalinity---which is a 4 week treatment with the salinity at 1.009 exactly.

This is what I was afraid of. Still, having run copper now for 2 weeks, as I understand it the theront stage is covered, I only need to worry about the trophont and tomont stages. So.. if the spots fall off or are not trophonts, then I was hoping I can remove the fish clean the QT and be good to go. This is assuming that the swimmers and fish attached stage parasites are dead and the cyst stage buggers are irrelevant and can be killed with a nice fresh water bath for a few days.

WaterKeeper · 05/21/2009, 07:22 AM

Hi Norge,

Yes, that does sound strange to me that the spots are only two and stationary after that amount of time. You are correct that ich spots come and go as the disease progresses. Lets see the the picture before going any further.

norgemorir · 05/21/2009, 07:36 PM

Well, I wanted to take a shot tonight but, tada.. spot's gone. I noticed last night that it seemed smaller but didn't want to jump to conclusions..
Anyway, here's one of the shots from last week, not a good shot, but you can see the little patch/spot on the end of the right fin.

becact · 05/25/2009, 01:42 PM

Hey guys, thought I'd throw in my experience. Ich was introduced to my reef tank a week or two ago from frags (I beleive). I have a clown pair, yellow tang, powder brown, a hawkfish, 3 anthias, and 4 chromis. All fish are visually infected except the hawkfish. The two tangs are severely visually infected (the spots on them almost look like someone spilled salt on them), while the clowns are less so, and the other fish not very visually infected (meaning little to no white spots, even though I know they have it). I lost two anthias this morning, and the female clown is not looking very good. Also the other fish seem to be losing appetite. Before this point all fish had ich but were eating well, so I thought I'd let it play out and see what happened. Now that I see things have taken a turn for the worse I am considering copper treatment in a hospital tank.

I have a 29g tank and a 10g tank. Is the 29g tank large enough for the two tangs, hawk, and clowns, and the 10g large enough for the anthias and chromis, or should I purchase a 50g rubbermaid from home depot for the treatment instead? It is going to be hell catching these fish, if I even can, as my rockscape is very cavernous with lots of nooks and crannies. If I cannot catch them I am afraid I will have to watch them die off, after which I probably won't be having fish again, save a jawfish or two.

I bought and added all the fish simultaneously, like a typical noob, without quarantining. This ich makes my tank a sad thing to look at, instead of a pleasurable hobby. Luckily, this disease does not kill coral as well, or I would have already broken down the tank and sold it off (I have many frags).

Here is my QT plan, can someone give me feedback?

1) Buy 50g rubbermaid, and fill it with tank water. The lower water in the display will also make the fish easier to catch

2) Catch fish (hopefully this will be possible), and add them to the rubbermaid which has PVC hiding places

3) refill tank with fresh salt water (in effect, a 50% water change)

4) do copper treatment on rubbermaid as prescribed. Allow main tank to be fallow for 6-8 weeks (I want to be super sure here)

My questions are, do I need to remove my inverts? Obviously I know not to treat them with Cu. I've read articles on the net that say inverts can carry too, they just don't break out. This thread seems to imply the opposite (they are immune). Also, is it too late for some of my fish? The powder brown, for example, is breathing very quickly and not eating much. Same with the clown female.

I would have to wait until next weekend to do this treatment, as I am very busy during the week, and this seems like a weekend project. I hope the fish can hold out until then

.

Thanks for any advice...

Aquarist007 · 05/25/2009, 04:07 PM

what's easier to do--remove the fish or remove the corals and inverts.
if it is easier to remove the corals/and the live rock they are on --remove them and the inverts to your 29 gal qt.

now treat your tank and fish by hyposalination--not copper

becact · 05/25/2009, 04:26 PM

It would be easier to remove the fish. The rockwork is epoxied together in many places, and corals are glued into nooks in the rockwork. Plus, i don't have a halide setup for a holding tank, and can't really transfer my skimmer and such to a coral holding tank... not to mention flow requirements.

I take it hyposalination is not an option with corals and inverts, right?

JoelNB · 05/25/2009, 05:10 PM

I'd work on the idea that there is ich incubating on your corals and it will hatch in a few weeks when it will die for lack of fish.

If you're going to use copper, you may need to do a bunch of water changes. Ammonia may get to toxic levels in just a day or two without your biological filter. You'll need to stock up on amquel, and test often.

Aquarist007 · 05/25/2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by becact
It would be easier to remove the fish. The rockwork is epoxied together in many places, and corals are glued into nooks in the rockwork. Plus, i don't have a halide setup for a holding tank, and can't really transfer my skimmer and such to a coral holding tank... not to mention flow requirements.

I take it hyposalination is not an option with corals and inverts, right?

okay I understand
then setup on hob filter for about 3-5 days on the sump or display tank then transfer it over to the 29gal with water from the tank. Also add some live rock from the display tank if you chose hyposalination the live rock will still be fine.
The fish you have will survive the 29 gal qt that way but check the ammonia levels daily and be prepared for a water change.

To take the fish out of the display you may need to drain the water down into buckets which you can put back in the display or use new salt water.
Leaving the tank fishless for 4 weeks will ensure that the ich is gone --it can't live that long on corals--it has to have a fish host..

This is why I suggest hyposalination over copper--it takes 4 weeks in the qt--the same time your tank needs to remain fishless plus you can ensure the safety of your fish with live rock from the display tank

You are correct--corals and inverts will not survive hyposalination over the time required for it.

becact · 05/25/2009, 06:01 PM

Thanks. It is good to know all the fish will be OK in the 29g. You don't think it would add a bunch of stress to have all those fish in a 29g (they are coming from a 90)? I will buy a large rubbermaid if needed, but if not I'd rather use the 29g I already have!

Also, just wondering, if hypo has been proven to work, why is copper the popular standard for ich treatment? Hypo seems easier and cheaper on all levels, not to mention probably less harmful to the fish, it doesn't contaminate your hospital tank with Cu, and you can use LR for a bio filter in the hospital tank. With hypo all I would need is RO/DI and salt for frequent water changes. But with a Cu treatment I'd need copper and a test kit in addition to the frequent water changes. I'd be really peeved going through all the trouble with a hypo treatment only to have the ich survive, as I'm sure you can understand!

Aquarist007 · 05/25/2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by becact
Thanks. It is good to know all the fish will be OK in the 29g. You don't think it would add a bunch of stress to have all those fish in a 29g (they are coming from a 90)? I will buy a large rubbermaid if needed, but if not I'd rather use the 29g I already have!

Also, just wondering, if hypo has been proven to work, why is copper the popular standard for ich treatment? Hypo seems easier and cheaper on all levels, not to mention probably less harmful to the fish, it doesn't contaminate your hospital tank with Cu, and you can use LR for a bio filter in the hospital tank. With hypo all I would need is RO/DI and salt for frequent water changes. But with a Cu treatment I'd need copper and a test kit in addition to the frequent water changes. I'd be really peeved going through all the trouble with a hypo treatment only to have the ich survive, as I'm sure you can understand!

hmm that is alot of fish--how big are the tangs---I would be worried more about the ammonia then the stress on the fish.

how big a tote can you get?

JoelNB · 05/25/2009, 06:26 PM

capn, been doing some scenarios and I'm not sure a large QT will help the ammonia situation (or hurt it).

Aquarist007 · 05/25/2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoelNB
capn, been doing some scenarios and I'm not sure a large QT will help the ammonia situation (or hurt it).

what scenerio are you suggesting Joel?

JoelNB · 05/25/2009, 07:44 PM

OK, imagine we have two QTs, a 20g and a 40g. The fish produce enough ammonia to raise the 20g by 1ppm per day.

1) The 20g. Say we do a 50% water change per day. The ammonia will eventually settle on between 1ppm and 2ppm depending on the time of day.

2) The 40g. The same fish raise the ammonia by 0.5ppm per day. Say we do a 50% water change every two days. The ammonia will settle at between 1ppm and 2ppm.

In both cases, the rate of 10g per day is changed and the ammonia is identical.

If 25% changes are made daily on the 40g then ammonia would settle between 1ppm and 1.5ppm, however, we could get the same effect buy doing 25% twice daily changes on the 20g. Same water, same ammonia.

If we assume the QT is in the practical size range (not so huge that nothing bothers it), the benefit of a large QT seems to be the swimming room, and the drawback is it takes more salt to fill and do 100% water changes between treatments.

Aquarist007 · 05/25/2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoelNB
OK, imagine we have two QTs, a 20g and a 40g. The fish produce enough ammonia to raise the 20g by 1ppm per day.

1) The 20g. Say we do a 50% water change per day. The ammonia will eventually settle on between 1ppm and 2ppm depending on the time of day.

2) The 40g. The same fish raise the ammonia by 0.5ppm per day. Say we do a 50% water change every two days. The ammonia will settle at between 1ppm and 2ppm.

In both cases, the rate of 10g per day is changed and the ammonia is identical.

If 25% changes are made daily on the 40g then ammonia would settle between 1ppm and 1.5ppm, however, we could get the same effect buy doing 25% twice daily changes on the 20g. Same water, same ammonia.

If we assume the QT is in the practical size range (not so huge that nothing bothers it), the benefit of a large QT seems to be the swimming room, and the drawback is it takes more salt to fill and do 100% water changes between treatments.

thanks I understand what you are saying

In this case then IMO i guess they should use both qts---the 40gal for the two tangs and the 20 gal for the rest of the fish.
If they hyposalinate they should be able to put some cycled live rock from the display tank in each quarantine tank
does this sound plausable to you?

JoelNB · 05/25/2009, 08:54 PM

Oops.

JoelNB · 05/25/2009, 08:55 PM

Absolutely, though I'm taking the general consensus that the rock is OK with hypo as I've never tried it. In fact I'd like to try hypo in the future as I'm sooo over uncycled tanks and non cyclable conditions (I must have gone through 10 cycles with fish present in the last few months, FW and salt,due to a series of unfortunate events and mind changing

).

I'd like to set up a cycled hypo QT using a good sized internal canister filter. I think trying to be regularly exacting with salinity would be a walk in the park compared to dealing with ammonia

.

Aquarist007 · 05/25/2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoelNB
Absolutely, though I'm taking the general consensus that the rock is OK with hypo as I've never tried it. In fact I'd like to try hypo in the future as I'm sooo over uncycled tanks and non cyclable conditions (I must have gone through 10 cycles with fish present in the last few months, FW and salt,due to a series of unfortunate events and mind changing ).

I'd like to set up a cycled hypo QT using a good sized internal canister filter. I think trying to be regularly exacting with salinity would be a walk in the park compared to dealing with ammonia .

the live rock bacteria takes a slight hit but cycles back really quick when the salinity starts to be increased back to 1.026

a canister filter would work--any container will do

becact · 05/25/2009, 10:32 PM

Thanks for the tips so far. I admit I've not done 100% of the research needed to treat them, but I need to do 50% water changes daily? (with either Cu or hypo, I assume). I understand this is for ammonia control. Would adding some rock to the hypo QT tank help at all? Perhaps vacuuming detritus from the bottom daily? Only feeding pellets? Is there a detailed page somewhere on this method? Also, any comments on the hypo vs. Cu treatment efficacy?

They have 50g rubbermaids at home depot. The dimensions are pretty good, in that they are shallow and long so should provide a lot more swimming space than a 29g AGA would allow. Could I get by with one Koralia 4 breaking the water surface for aeration and flow? Or is an airstone a must? Here's a photo of one. Apparently they're common in all areas of aquaria (this one is a tortoise tank):

JoelNB · 05/25/2009, 10:54 PM

becact, I've only needed to control ammonia when either I've put fish in an uncycled tank or I used something like copper, which kills the beneficial bacteria. As I was saying earlier, I would like to go with hypo so I can stop worrying about ammonia and only do water changes on occasion. HTH

becact · 05/25/2009, 11:01 PM

My situation is that I only have about 10lbs of "spare" rock to use in the hypo tank. I'm not sure if 10lbs of LR in 50g of water is going to help at all...

Aquarist007 · 05/26/2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoelNB
becact, I've only needed to control ammonia when either I've put fish in an uncycled tank or I used something like copper, which kills the beneficial bacteria. As I was saying earlier, I would like to go with hypo so I can stop worrying about ammonia and only do water changes on occasion. HTH

I agree with Joel.
Also IMO I would not put a k4 power head in a qt----that could stress out or take some fish with out the strenth for the ride of their live

A small maxi jet would be adequate

Here is a good monitoring device for ammonia
http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=311

adding the live rock is just insurance---I wouldn't worry if you only have 10 lbs

however if would suggest using the hob filter that you prepare by running it on the display system for 3 days.

Aquarist007 · 05/26/2009, 09:36 AM

Here is a blog on How to Hyposalinate:

the how to link is towards the bottom

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=286

05/20/2009, 02:20 PM	#276
H.Veras Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: bay area, ca Posts: 1,024	should i do my treatment in my DT since i only got two fish's in there... no carols yet... tank is running for two months only? __________________ 90g tech series. Current Tank Info: 90g tech series

05/21/2009, 07:22 AM	#280
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Hi Norge, Yes, that does sound strange to me that the spots are only two and stationary after that amount of time. You are correct that ich spots come and go as the disease progresses. Lets see the the picture before going any further. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/25/2009, 04:07 PM	#283
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	what's easier to do--remove the fish or remove the corals and inverts. if it is easier to remove the corals/and the live rock they are on --remove them and the inverts to your 29 gal qt. now treat your tank and fish by hyposalination--not copper __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

05/25/2009, 06:01 PM	#287
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Thanks. It is good to know all the fish will be OK in the 29g. You don't think it would add a bunch of stress to have all those fish in a 29g (they are coming from a 90)? I will buy a large rubbermaid if needed, but if not I'd rather use the 29g I already have! Also, just wondering, if hypo has been proven to work, why is copper the popular standard for ich treatment? Hypo seems easier and cheaper on all levels, not to mention probably less harmful to the fish, it doesn't contaminate your hospital tank with Cu, and you can use LR for a bio filter in the hospital tank. With hypo all I would need is RO/DI and salt for frequent water changes. But with a Cu treatment I'd need copper and a test kit in addition to the frequent water changes. I'd be really peeved going through all the trouble with a hypo treatment only to have the ich survive, as I'm sure you can understand! Last edited by becact; 05/25/2009 at 06:07 PM.

05/26/2009, 09:36 AM	#300
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	Here is a blog on How to Hyposalinate: the how to link is towards the bottom http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=286 __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

05/21/2009, 07:36 PM	#281
norgemorir Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: South Jersey Posts: 73	Well, I wanted to take a shot tonight but, tada.. spot's gone. I noticed last night that it seemed smaller but didn't want to jump to conclusions.. Anyway, here's one of the shots from last week, not a good shot, but you can see the little patch/spot on the end of the right fin.

05/25/2009, 01:42 PM	#282
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Hey guys, thought I'd throw in my experience. Ich was introduced to my reef tank a week or two ago from frags (I beleive). I have a clown pair, yellow tang, powder brown, a hawkfish, 3 anthias, and 4 chromis. All fish are visually infected except the hawkfish. The two tangs are severely visually infected (the spots on them almost look like someone spilled salt on them), while the clowns are less so, and the other fish not very visually infected (meaning little to no white spots, even though I know they have it). I lost two anthias this morning, and the female clown is not looking very good. Also the other fish seem to be losing appetite. Before this point all fish had ich but were eating well, so I thought I'd let it play out and see what happened. Now that I see things have taken a turn for the worse I am considering copper treatment in a hospital tank. I have a 29g tank and a 10g tank. Is the 29g tank large enough for the two tangs, hawk, and clowns, and the 10g large enough for the anthias and chromis, or should I purchase a 50g rubbermaid from home depot for the treatment instead? It is going to be hell catching these fish, if I even can, as my rockscape is very cavernous with lots of nooks and crannies. If I cannot catch them I am afraid I will have to watch them die off, after which I probably won't be having fish again, save a jawfish or two. I bought and added all the fish simultaneously, like a typical noob, without quarantining. This ich makes my tank a sad thing to look at, instead of a pleasurable hobby. Luckily, this disease does not kill coral as well, or I would have already broken down the tank and sold it off (I have many frags). Here is my QT plan, can someone give me feedback? 1) Buy 50g rubbermaid, and fill it with tank water. The lower water in the display will also make the fish easier to catch 2) Catch fish (hopefully this will be possible), and add them to the rubbermaid which has PVC hiding places 3) refill tank with fresh salt water (in effect, a 50% water change) 4) do copper treatment on rubbermaid as prescribed. Allow main tank to be fallow for 6-8 weeks (I want to be super sure here) My questions are, do I need to remove my inverts? Obviously I know not to treat them with Cu. I've read articles on the net that say inverts can carry too, they just don't break out. This thread seems to imply the opposite (they are immune). Also, is it too late for some of my fish? The powder brown, for example, is breathing very quickly and not eating much. Same with the clown female. I would have to wait until next weekend to do this treatment, as I am very busy during the week, and this seems like a weekend project. I hope the fish can hold out until then . Thanks for any advice...

05/25/2009, 04:26 PM	#284
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	It would be easier to remove the fish. The rockwork is epoxied together in many places, and corals are glued into nooks in the rockwork. Plus, i don't have a halide setup for a holding tank, and can't really transfer my skimmer and such to a coral holding tank... not to mention flow requirements. I take it hyposalination is not an option with corals and inverts, right?

05/25/2009, 05:10 PM	#285
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	I'd work on the idea that there is ich incubating on your corals and it will hatch in a few weeks when it will die for lack of fish. If you're going to use copper, you may need to do a bunch of water changes. Ammonia may get to toxic levels in just a day or two without your biological filter. You'll need to stock up on amquel, and test often.

05/25/2009, 06:26 PM	#289
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	capn, been doing some scenarios and I'm not sure a large QT will help the ammonia situation (or hurt it).

05/25/2009, 07:44 PM	#291
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	OK, imagine we have two QTs, a 20g and a 40g. The fish produce enough ammonia to raise the 20g by 1ppm per day. 1) The 20g. Say we do a 50% water change per day. The ammonia will eventually settle on between 1ppm and 2ppm depending on the time of day. 2) The 40g. The same fish raise the ammonia by 0.5ppm per day. Say we do a 50% water change every two days. The ammonia will settle at between 1ppm and 2ppm. In both cases, the rate of 10g per day is changed and the ammonia is identical. If 25% changes are made daily on the 40g then ammonia would settle between 1ppm and 1.5ppm, however, we could get the same effect buy doing 25% twice daily changes on the 20g. Same water, same ammonia. If we assume the QT is in the practical size range (not so huge that nothing bothers it), the benefit of a large QT seems to be the swimming room, and the drawback is it takes more salt to fill and do 100% water changes between treatments.

05/25/2009, 08:54 PM	#293
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	Oops.

05/25/2009, 08:55 PM	#294
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	Absolutely, though I'm taking the general consensus that the rock is OK with hypo as I've never tried it. In fact I'd like to try hypo in the future as I'm sooo over uncycled tanks and non cyclable conditions (I must have gone through 10 cycles with fish present in the last few months, FW and salt,due to a series of unfortunate events and mind changing ). I'd like to set up a cycled hypo QT using a good sized internal canister filter. I think trying to be regularly exacting with salinity would be a walk in the park compared to dealing with ammonia .

05/25/2009, 10:32 PM	#296
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Thanks for the tips so far. I admit I've not done 100% of the research needed to treat them, but I need to do 50% water changes daily? (with either Cu or hypo, I assume). I understand this is for ammonia control. Would adding some rock to the hypo QT tank help at all? Perhaps vacuuming detritus from the bottom daily? Only feeding pellets? Is there a detailed page somewhere on this method? Also, any comments on the hypo vs. Cu treatment efficacy? They have 50g rubbermaids at home depot. The dimensions are pretty good, in that they are shallow and long so should provide a lot more swimming space than a 29g AGA would allow. Could I get by with one Koralia 4 breaking the water surface for aeration and flow? Or is an airstone a must? Here's a photo of one. Apparently they're common in all areas of aquaria (this one is a tortoise tank):

05/25/2009, 10:54 PM	#297
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	becact, I've only needed to control ammonia when either I've put fish in an uncycled tank or I used something like copper, which kills the beneficial bacteria. As I was saying earlier, I would like to go with hypo so I can stop worrying about ammonia and only do water changes on occasion. HTH

05/25/2009, 11:01 PM	#298
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	My situation is that I only have about 10lbs of "spare" rock to use in the hypo tank. I'm not sure if 10lbs of LR in 50g of water is going to help at all...