N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[djkms]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

Just start it all now. No point in making it any more complicated than it needs to be.

DJ

Thanks DJ, just the answer I was hoping for. Should I maybe just start out with 1/2 or 1/4 of the recommended amount of pellets and work up or just start with recommended dose and let my bioload catch up?

[philbo32]

But still i have to clean the glass every 2 days , is this the evidence that i have to much DOC / TOC that can't seem to skim off ?

What colour is the film on the glass, if it is a white film then it usually indicates too much DOC in the water column and a build up of bacteria on the glass.

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by djkms

Thanks DJ, just the answer I was hoping for. Should I maybe just start out with 1/2 or 1/4 of the recommended amount of pellets and work up or just start with recommended dose and let my bioload catch up?

it probably wouldn't hurt anything to work your way in 1/2 at a time. Just make sure your circulation is adequate in the event you have a bloom (which I doubt you will with such a minimal bioload).

DJ

[Aquarist007]

I have been running the np pellets on 4 different systems for about 5 weeks
In all the tanks I have noticed an immediate clarity in thee water and the corals extending their polyps
However in one tank, soon after installing the np pellets in a phosban reactor i had a huge breakout of bryopsis on the reef rock and on all the equipment,

Although some of the bryopsis has been reduced it is still very privelent in this tank.
Has any one else experienced this problem

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I have been running the np pellets on 4 different systems for about 5 weeks
In all the tanks I have noticed an immediate clarity in thee water and the corals extending their polyps
However in one tank, soon after installing the np pellets in a phosban reactor i had a huge breakout of bryopsis on the reef rock and on all the equipment,

Although some of the bryopsis has been reduced it is still very privelent in this tank.
Has any one else experienced this problem

That's odd. Obviously the algae is pulling something out of the rock. What r the levels in that tank respective to the others.

DJ

[miklolsalty]

The product is available at aquarium specialty and they also carry the reactor that was made just for these pellets as they like alot of flow. have been using for about a month and my po4s are 0. I love the way the pellets and the reactor work, as it allows me more time to enjoy my reef rather than working on it

[Aquarist007]

tank before adding np biopellets



one week after adding the pellets

[miklolsalty]

To keep the possibility of out breaks you should put discharge in skimmer or in its direction ,this will help export some ob the bacteria, also they say to also run a po4 meda for a while to allow the Np reducing pelletes to build up a good layered bed od bacteria

[miklolsalty]

The guy at A.S is the distributor here in the USA and they were the ones who ran most of these test for the N>P> pellets

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

That's odd. Obviously the algae is pulling something out of the rock. What r the levels in that tank respective to the others.

DJ

The other tanks were installed by me about a year ago and I used quality reef rock
This particular tank was a mess when I took it over about a year ago but it is about five years old

So you are probably right about the rock being saturated with nitrates and phosphates

I am curious about two things
The tank was almost algae clear before running the biopellets, so why would the bryopsis start then?

With patience will the bio pellets remove the nitrates and phosphates from the rock and thus the bryopsis

I am aware that I could easily remove the bryopsis myself by cranking up the magnesium levels but I am trying to see if the np pellets will handle it.

[miklolsalty]

I wish I had a camera to show you how clear mine is and what little alga I had just shrunk up and was gone . they will pull out po4 from all over the tank and meda the problem my be you skimmer is not large enough and you are dumping to much bacteria in the tank and the animals that feed on it are not sufficient enough to get it taken away

[tmz]

Scott, NO3 won't hang around in the rock like PO4 will.
Perhaps the extra organic carbon and/ or bacterial activity advantage the bryopsis or possibly a reduction in NO3 and PO4 caused some PO4 to leach back from the rock locally giving the edge to the bryopsis . Hard to say. Green algae including bryospis is limited by PO4 of less than 0.03ppm which may be difficult to achie ve with just the pellets and no gfo or other binders. Even then some algae may be able to grab organic forms of PO4.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by tntneon

hi chuck & TMZ ,

I think i have that issue , corals are very happy( coloration , PE ,growth rate ...) and i don't have any measurable N / P or algea.
But still i have to clean the glass every 2 days , is this the evidence that i have to much DOC / TOC that can't seem to skim off ?

greetingzz tntneon

Hi, I don't know. What is on the glass? Do you use gac?

[ryanuuy]

Okay its been weeks into my use of the biopellets and everything seems to be doing great. My acans have recovered except one which is still sort of struggling. the weird thing is that my alk seems to be maintained at 7-8dkh without me having to dose anything. Before i used to dose sodium bicarb every 2 days to maintain my alk but now it seems to stay there on its own. My ph still hasnt recovered back above 8 and it at a steady 7.9.

I was wondering if this weird alk situation and ph situation is what caused a few burnt tips on 2 colonies of my sps? Before this, nothing like this happened to them. Everything else seems to be doing great though!

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

The other tanks were installed by me about a year ago and I used quality reef rock
This particular tank was a mess when I took it over about a year ago but it is about five years old

So you are probably right about the rock being saturated with nitrates and phosphates

I am curious about two things
The tank was almost algae clear before running the biopellets, so why would the bryopsis start then?

With patience will the bio pellets remove the nitrates and phosphates from the rock and thus the bryopsis

I am aware that I could easily remove the bryopsis myself by cranking up the magnesium levels but I am trying to see if the np pellets will handle it.

My suspicion would be that there was a nutrient competition occurring with other alga in the system that kept the Bryopsis in check. Once the limiting nutrients for these more efficient organisms were stripped from he system the Bryopsis then got the upper hand. I believe that this might also be what's happening to a lot of folks who are having cyano issues after the introduction of biopellet media, and subsequent mass die off of competing flora.

DJ

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by ryanuuy

Okay its been weeks into my use of the biopellets and everything seems to be doing great. My acans have recovered except one which is still sort of struggling. the weird thing is that my alk seems to be maintained at 7-8dkh without me having to dose anything. Before i used to dose sodium bicarb every 2 days to maintain my alk but now it seems to stay there on its own. My ph still hasnt recovered back above 8 and it at a steady 7.9.

I was wondering if this weird alk situation and ph situation is what caused a few burnt tips on 2 colonies of my sps? Before this, nothing like this happened to them. Everything else seems to be doing great though!

A lot of us have noticed this. Mine is stuck dead red on 12dKH. Evidently one of the binding agents in the pellets is very basic. It's kind of a side benefit for those who have a moderate to light alk draw in the system.

[ryanuuy]

did some of your sps tips burn out when that happened? how do you increase the ph back to a bit above 8 without using sodium bicarb? (i dose 2 part). im a bit worried for my sps since prior to the biopellets, this has never happened! the tips were a burnt so i just fragged them off but the rest of the colonys polyps are still very extended and seems to be doing great.

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by tmz

Hi, I don't know. What is on the glass? Do you use gac?

If i look at an sharp angle from the sides to the front glass i see after 2 days a lightbrown/green dusty film , only covering the front glass .
The rocks and the sand are staying pristine white , so it isn't cyano i think.

It isn't problematic , and now everything is automated (Ca, alk and top-off) on my tank , i don't find it a hassle anymore to clean the glass every 2 days .
But i still want to know what it is covering my glass dinoflatalgea , diatoms ?

I still use GAC but no GFO anymore , must say that when i just changed GAC it takes a little bit longer then 2 days to have the same film , say 3 or 4 .
I change my GAC every 3 weeks now , and i use about 40 gr on a 25G system .

greetingzz tntneon

[ChuckG]

tntneon.. sounds like your tank is fairly balanced. A light film on the glass after 2-3 days sounds normal and not too problematic.

If you think you might have too much bacteria in the water column that has escaped the pellet reactor then you can try and run a 25 or 100 micron sock on the drain to the sump. Change it out for a clean sock every or every other day. This will catch some bacteria in the water column that has clumped together.

If this is done I suggest only running the sock part of the day at first, maybe just while out at work. That way the bacteria is in the water at night for the corals to feed on. Maybe try this for a week or two to see the effect and if it helps clear up some of the pane film. Or maybe you already run a sock?

[ChuckG]

capn_hylinur.. DJReefs analysis sounds good. Sometimes we can almost consider multiple dynamics happening simultaneously.

Another to consider is that once the water column becomes devoid of N and P it will suck the years of sequestered nutrients out of the rocks for algea and other pests to feed on. Those nutrients can be locked up onto the surfaces over time from high nutrient levels and Kalk precipitation onto the rocks and sand. I have seen this in my own tank.

Typically the release of these organics is a waiting game and they will eventually deplete (takes sometimes months) so long as the water is kept low in nutrients. Every other day rock basting and scrubbing with a toothbrush can help. Also a zeovit product called zeozym can help speed this release if dosed 2 times a week. But I would make sure you have a balanced and functional pellet reactor ready to consume what is released before dosing this as dirty rocks can cause a large spike in released P04.

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by ryanuuy

did some of your sps tips burn out when that happened? how do you increase the ph back to a bit above 8 without using sodium bicarb? (i dose 2 part). im a bit worried for my sps since prior to the biopellets, this has never happened! the tips were a burnt so i just fragged them off but the rest of the colonys polyps are still very extended and seems to be doing great.

Actually I had one colony - a knobby odd looking Acropora sp that kind of did that, but it turned out to be a non event. I have to qualify though that I'm not running ULNS quite yet (roughly 60ppb PO4), and the setup is predominantly populated with frags and small colonies. I'm in the process of stair-stepping the nutrients down in a gradual manner to specifically try to avoid such things.

DJ

[tmz]

tntneon,

Sounds like diatoms or phytoplanton . I wouldn't worry about it .Dropping the PO4 may reduce it. I clean glass about every 5 days or so. Sometimes a film builds a bit sooner. Seems to happen when the gac is stale.N and or P bound to organics may be feeding it.

ryanuuy,

Burnt tips are hard to figure but most of the time an alk shift is involved, ime. Rapid drops in N and P or organic carbon increases may play a role.

The alk consistency in lyour tank may just be a reduction in consumption due to lesser growth as evident in the burnt tips. Possibly less coraline growth too.

PO4 discourages both biotic and abiotic precipitation. Reducing PO4 as occurs with carbon dosing can accelerate the amount of calcium carbonate the coral lays out and with less N and P available than what the coral is used to tissue growth may not keep up causing the coral to encounter stn. This is a major reason that ultra low nutrient system folks go for low range alk levels around 7 dkh.

Coraline may also slow down as bacterial film on surfaces may inhibit it.

Carbon dosing will effect ph overtime dropping it a bit as a result of extra C bacterial activity . Dosing buffers to increase ph is a poor strategy, imo and ime,as the extra carbonate can raise it short term but as CO2 equilibrates with the air the ph goes back down even though the alk is increased.
A CO2 scrubber works well for me . Here is a thread on it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...t=co2+scrubber

Scott, As noted in my earlier post changes in competiton or lealching PO4 may be giving bryopsis the edge. Another possibility may be any negative effect the surface bacterial film may have on coraline.

[ryanuuy]

Thanks tmz! Im going to go try the scrubber to increase the ph of my water. I tested my alk this morning and it was at around 7 or a bit above 7 using salifert. My alk usually stays around that level (7-8) so im a bit confused why the tips burnt out. I did about a 20% water change this morning and im hoping that stops whatever caused that.

i use a reefmaniacs beckette skimmer thats rated for 250 gallons and is being powered by a rio hf20 pump(1200gph) and im going to connect this to the scrubber. I hope this solves the ph problem!

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by DJREEF

My suspicion would be that there was a nutrient competition occurring with other alga in the system that kept the Bryopsis in check. Once the limiting nutrients for these more efficient organisms were stripped from he system the Bryopsis then got the upper hand. I believe that this might also be what's happening to a lot of folks who are having cyano issues after the introduction of biopellet media, and subsequent mass die off of competing flora.

DJ

will the np pellets eventually starve out the byropsis?

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by tmz

Scott, NO3 won't hang around in the rock like PO4 will.
Perhaps the extra organic carbon and/ or bacterial activity advantage the bryopsis or possibly a reduction in NO3 and PO4 caused some PO4 to leach back from the rock locally giving the edge to the bryopsis . Hard to say. Green algae including bryospis is limited by PO4 of less than 0.03ppm which may be difficult to achie ve with just the pellets and no gfo or other binders. Even then some algae may be able to grab organic forms of PO4.

Tom, the system had a Rena canister filter on it which I unhooked when I set up the pellets. It had a gfo media packet in it which I changed out every month. That could explain the surge in bryopsis.
I could increase the magnesium level to 1600 ppm to kill off the bryopsis but I was hoping the np pellets would eventually take care of it