Have ICH looky here!!!!! - Page 13

becact · 05/26/2009, 12:18 PM

Thanks guys! I hope the fish can make it to this weekend when I have a chance to do this.

On a related note, is it OK to use different salt for the QT? For example, right now I use reef crystals in my main tank. For the QT setup I would be transfering over tank water to fill it up, and refilling my main tank with instant ocean. Then I'd be doing the water changes on the QT with IO salt (to save money). I think IO and RC are pretty similar, so I hope this will not be a big shock to the main tank or the fish in the QT...

WaterKeeper · 05/26/2009, 02:00 PM

Should be fine as long as you match salinity and pH.

becact · 05/26/2009, 05:22 PM

Thank you WK.

I am still curious on why Cu treatment is the gold standard, when hyposalination is easier and cheaper. In the first post it says all three methods are "proven," yet Cu still seems to be far more popular. I am assured to rid my fish and tank of the ich by following the hypo procedure precisely, right? It would be a pain to go through all that work to have one organism survive and repopulate the tank with ich!

Aquarist007 · 05/26/2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by becact
Thank you WK.

I am still curious on why Cu treatment is the gold standard, when hyposalination is easier and cheaper. In the first post it says all three methods are "proven," yet Cu still seems to be far more popular. I am assured to rid my fish and tank of the ich by following the hypo procedure precisely, right? It would be a pain to go through all that work to have one organism survive and repopulate the tank with ich!

there are actually three preferred methods that Water keeper has outlined earlier in this thread and I have also done on my blog:
http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=286

There are alot of possible reasons but only speculation
it is a faster treatment for those in a rush

somepeople might not want to bring the salinity down to 1.009 as they feel it is very close to the limit for fish and or it stresses them out more

you really need to buy a refractometer to measure the salinity for hyposalinating---some can't see the worth in that.

just a few that come to my mind

becact · 05/26/2009, 06:25 PM

Do you think hypo is more stressful that copper? Can the fish "feel" the copper? (I realize no one knows for sure). Personally I don't see how Cu is faster, since you still have to wait for the ich in the tank to die off, right? So either way the fish are going to have to be in QT for at least 4 weeks...

luckily I already have a refractometer. Would calibrating with RO/DI be best since it is closer to 1.009 than than a standard saline solution?

Aquarist007 · 05/26/2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by becact
Do you think hypo is more stressful that copper? Can the fish "feel" the copper? (I realize no one knows for sure). Personally I don't see how Cu is faster, since you still have to wait for the ich in the tank to die off, right? So either way the fish are going to have to be in QT for at least 4 weeks...

luckily I already have a refractometer. Would calibrating with RO/DI be best since it is closer to 1.009 than than a standard saline solution?

no buy the pinpoint calibrating solution which calibrates to 35ppt which is sea water

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-12/rhf/index.php#20

Aquarist007 · 05/26/2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by becact
Do you think hypo is more stressful that copper? Can the fish "feel" the copper? (I realize no one knows for sure). Personally I don't see how Cu is faster, since you still have to wait for the ich in the tank to die off, right? So either way the fish are going to have to be in QT for at least 4 weeks...

very true--lets change faster to less invovled

I don't know if hypo is more stressful then copper but some reefers have reported that some tangs don't do well with copper medications but hypo doesn't seem to bother them.

becact · 05/26/2009, 07:54 PM

Cool, well it's hypo for me then. I asked about the RO/DI for a calibration because calibrating to 0 salinity is closer to the 1.009 mark than the 35ppt mark. Ideally would would have a 1.009 calibration fluid to calibrate before each measurement, but using RO/DI is closer to the mark than a 35ppt solution.

I understand a 35ppt solution should be used for calibrating the tool before tank water measurements.

bobbyjeb · 05/27/2009, 05:59 PM

copper ich medication and a copper test kit ....can you please just tell me the name of a good copper med. I look and see so many I get nervous. I am going to put all my fish in a ten gal hospital tank, bare bottem, pvc pipes, hob filter and heater. The coral beauty and three small marroon clowns, lawn mower and scooter blenny, and a green spotted puffer. The shrimps will be ok in the DT with the anemonea, right? Can i run this small of a tank for the durration of the meds? Maybe with alot of pvc....

bobbyjeb · 05/27/2009, 06:33 PM

Effectively treat marine ich in aquariums housing corals and anemones. NO-ICH Marine is a copper and Malachite Green free water treatment that biodegrades in 4 to 5 days. See this is just one of many, i really don't know what to get....i just want to get rid of the ick

WaterKeeper · 05/27/2009, 06:34 PM

You basically have two forms of copper treatment. The first is plain inorganic copper usually copper sulfate. It is fast and effective but dosage control is crucial as it can be overdosed and too little does not control ich.

The other type is chelated copper an organically bound copper; Cupramine is an example. It is not as quick as the inorganic form but gives more slack in the precise dosage needed for the inorganic. It tends to do less harm than the inorganic if overdosed and is more persistent so slight under dosing still can control the parasite. The LFS probably carries both types.

NEVER use copper in the display or on invertabrates.

Your plan for the QT tank is fine.

bobbyjeb · 05/28/2009, 03:30 AM

thank-you so much...our LFS has nothing. and niether does walmart. i have to go about an hour away or order online. The latter will stop the impulse buying...

I assume a fresh water dip before return to the display to get all the copper off?

MotherFish · 05/28/2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by becact
Would calibrating with RO/DI be best since it is closer to 1.009 than than a standard saline solution?

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
no buy the pinpoint calibrating solution which calibrates to 35ppt which is sea water

You have a very good point, becact, and the capn is right with one important addition.

IF your refractometer has a slope error, then calibrating only with 35ppt solution would either make hypo treatment ineffective (too high, above 1.009sg) or potentially harmful (too low, below 1.009sg), with a greater margin of error as you moved away from the 35ppt mark.

To compensate for this you should calibrate with 35ppt solution and then TEST your refractometer using RO water.
If the RO measures 0ppt then you can rest assured that you do not have a slope error, and your refractometer is accurate at all points between 0ppt to 35ppt.

Quote:

Originally posted by bobbyjeb
I assume a fresh water dip before return to the display to get all the copper off?

While a FW dip is a good treatment for other kinds of health problems/parasites, it's not necessary to "rinse" your fish before returning to the DT.
When your copper treatment is done, water changes and/or active carbon will remove the remaining copper from your QT long before your fallow period is over.

Besides, there is probably a greater amount of copper already contained in your reef salt mix then there will be in either your fish's bladder or on it's body even during treatment.

WaterKeeper · 05/28/2009, 02:15 PM

MotherFish.

Aquarist007 · 05/28/2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
MotherFish.

I second that point Motherfish

jenglish · 05/29/2009, 01:49 PM

WK-

Do you ever wish you locked this sticky after you wrote it?

WaterKeeper · 05/29/2009, 03:20 PM

Nope,

Left it open as I knew there would be questions and people have even had me add to the original post with updates.

uhuru · 06/09/2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Formalin is not an effective way of treating for ich--so those 14 days don't count.

why do you say this when it is listed on the first page as one of the 3 proven methods?

Aquarist007 · 06/09/2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by uhuru
why do you say this when it is listed on the first page as one of the 3 proven methods?

not a good post for me definetly---I'm suprised someone didn't see it sooner.

What was meant by me was that since formalin had not been effective for the poster then they can't count that as 14 days in quarantine.

Thanks for catching that uhuru

uhuru · 06/10/2009, 10:20 AM

well the funny thing is, greenbean also says it here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=2

Quote:

Originally posted by greenbean36191
Why try to reinvent the wheel? Ich is a very commercially important parasite and as a result there has been a lot of research on treatments. Currently, hyposalinity, copper, and tank transfer are it. There's really no sense in trying to use treatments that have already been shown to be of little or no use in controlling the parasite. It's still commercially important because there still aren't any simple treatments.

Things that have been tried unsuccessfully (not an exhaustive list):
cleaner fish and shrimp
formalin
fresh water baths (up to 18 hours)
UV sterilizers
malachite green
methylene blue
various quinine derivatives
various imidazoles (including metronidazole)
penicillin
acriflavin
pyrimethamine
potassium permanganate
sodium chlorite
nitrofurazone
para-rosaniline
aminoacridine

Things that have never been tested:
garlic derivatives
pepper derivatives

While garlic has never been directly tested for use against ich there are considerable reasons to doubt it functions as hobbyists hypothesize.

"Reef-safe" treatments that do not seem to be reef safe (definitely not exhaustive):
Rally
Stop Parasites

Some important quotes about the effectiveness of various treatment approaches (from Colorni and Burgess, 1997)-
"Chemotherapeutants added to the water are rarely absorbed through the skin of the fish in a quantity sufficient to affect the trophonts (Herwig, 1978, 1979). As tomonts, the cyst wall of C. irritans is similarly impervious to medication (the prolonged period of tomont development in C. irritans makes this parasite more difficult to eradicate than I. multifiliis). Consequently, chemotherapeutics that destroy C. irritans during its parasitic or encysted phase would probably also kill the fish (Herwig, 1978)." In other words, when the little white dots disappear from your fish, it's because of the natural lifecycle of the parasite, not the medication.

"hyposalinity does not upset the osmotic balance of the trophonts, which are not adversely affected when a prolonged (18 h) freshwater treatment is administered to the host (Colorni, 1992)."

Aquarist007 · 06/10/2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by uhuru
well the funny thing is, greenbean also says it here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=2

sure rub it in

WaterKeeper · 06/10/2009, 03:12 PM

The use of formalin was added to the tread after it was first posted. There is enough evidence that it may work that I included it as an option. It does require repeated treatments and a UV sterilizer to be successful. It only works on the imbedded parasite and not on the cysts or free swimming (tomite) stages as they are not exposed to the chemical. Hence the need for the UV to kill the I won't vouch for it as the best treatment but it does appear to work

Both the formalin method and tank transfer methods are lacking in the total number of reports about the overall efficacy of the treatment but the evidence does support they may be a good alternative if one is against using hypo or copper.

uhuru · 06/10/2009, 05:07 PM

can you give a recommendation on what size UV (and flow rate) would be effective on a 20g QT tank?

Aquarist007 · 06/10/2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by uhuru
can you give a recommendation on what size UV (and flow rate) would be effective on a 20g QT tank?

A UV is quite expensive to use in a qt tank. For flow rate --at best 200gal per hour. You might be dealing with fragile fish, fish that have fins that can't fight the current in a qt.

You should look into using Interceptor----I have to go to my vet for that but it should be easier for you.
Alot of reefers have reported success with other parasites by using Interceptor.

crooks · 06/12/2009, 09:34 PM

Once a glass tank is used for copper treatment it can no longer be a reef tank correct? What about a rubbermaid tub I have two 150 gal tubs. If I use one for copper can I bleach it or clean it, in any way to use it as a sump again?

05/26/2009, 02:00 PM	#302
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Should be fine as long as you match salinity and pH. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/27/2009, 06:34 PM	#311
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	You basically have two forms of copper treatment. The first is plain inorganic copper usually copper sulfate. It is fast and effective but dosage control is crucial as it can be overdosed and too little does not control ich. The other type is chelated copper an organically bound copper; Cupramine is an example. It is not as quick as the inorganic form but gives more slack in the precise dosage needed for the inorganic. It tends to do less harm than the inorganic if overdosed and is more persistent so slight under dosing still can control the parasite. The LFS probably carries both types. NEVER use copper in the display or on invertabrates. Your plan for the QT tank is fine. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/28/2009, 02:15 PM	#314
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	MotherFish. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/29/2009, 01:49 PM	#316
jenglish Marquis de Carabas Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,523	WK- Do you ever wish you locked this sticky after you wrote it? __________________ Jeremy Brown liquor never hurt anybody “Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse" Pierre-Simon Laplace I should want to cook him a simple meal, but I shouldn't want to cut into him, to tear the flesh, to wear the flesh, to be born unto new worlds where his flesh becomes my key. Current Tank Info: broken and dry

05/29/2009, 03:20 PM	#317
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Nope, Left it open as I knew there would be questions and people have even had me add to the original post with updates. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/26/2009, 12:18 PM	#301
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Thanks guys! I hope the fish can make it to this weekend when I have a chance to do this. On a related note, is it OK to use different salt for the QT? For example, right now I use reef crystals in my main tank. For the QT setup I would be transfering over tank water to fill it up, and refilling my main tank with instant ocean. Then I'd be doing the water changes on the QT with IO salt (to save money). I think IO and RC are pretty similar, so I hope this will not be a big shock to the main tank or the fish in the QT...

05/26/2009, 05:22 PM	#303
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Thank you WK. I am still curious on why Cu treatment is the gold standard, when hyposalination is easier and cheaper. In the first post it says all three methods are "proven," yet Cu still seems to be far more popular. I am assured to rid my fish and tank of the ich by following the hypo procedure precisely, right? It would be a pain to go through all that work to have one organism survive and repopulate the tank with ich!

05/26/2009, 06:25 PM	#305
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Do you think hypo is more stressful that copper? Can the fish "feel" the copper? (I realize no one knows for sure). Personally I don't see how Cu is faster, since you still have to wait for the ich in the tank to die off, right? So either way the fish are going to have to be in QT for at least 4 weeks... luckily I already have a refractometer. Would calibrating with RO/DI be best since it is closer to 1.009 than than a standard saline solution?

05/26/2009, 07:54 PM	#308
becact Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 550	Cool, well it's hypo for me then. I asked about the RO/DI for a calibration because calibrating to 0 salinity is closer to the 1.009 mark than the 35ppt mark. Ideally would would have a 1.009 calibration fluid to calibrate before each measurement, but using RO/DI is closer to the mark than a 35ppt solution. I understand a 35ppt solution should be used for calibrating the tool before tank water measurements.

05/27/2009, 05:59 PM	#309
bobbyjeb Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: athens, tn Posts: 99	copper ich medication and a copper test kit ....can you please just tell me the name of a good copper med. I look and see so many I get nervous. I am going to put all my fish in a ten gal hospital tank, bare bottem, pvc pipes, hob filter and heater. The coral beauty and three small marroon clowns, lawn mower and scooter blenny, and a green spotted puffer. The shrimps will be ok in the DT with the anemonea, right? Can i run this small of a tank for the durration of the meds? Maybe with alot of pvc....

05/27/2009, 06:33 PM	#310
bobbyjeb Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: athens, tn Posts: 99	Effectively treat marine ich in aquariums housing corals and anemones. NO-ICH Marine is a copper and Malachite Green free water treatment that biodegrades in 4 to 5 days. See this is just one of many, i really don't know what to get....i just want to get rid of the ick

05/28/2009, 03:30 AM	#312
bobbyjeb Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: athens, tn Posts: 99	thank-you so much...our LFS has nothing. and niether does walmart. i have to go about an hour away or order online. The latter will stop the impulse buying... I assume a fresh water dip before return to the display to get all the copper off?

06/10/2009, 03:12 PM	#322
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	The use of formalin was added to the tread after it was first posted. There is enough evidence that it may work that I included it as an option. It does require repeated treatments and a UV sterilizer to be successful. It only works on the imbedded parasite and not on the cysts or free swimming (tomite) stages as they are not exposed to the chemical. Hence the need for the UV to kill the I won't vouch for it as the best treatment but it does appear to work Both the formalin method and tank transfer methods are lacking in the total number of reports about the overall efficacy of the treatment but the evidence does support they may be a good alternative if one is against using hypo or copper. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

06/10/2009, 05:07 PM	#323
uhuru Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Columbus Posts: 2,949	can you give a recommendation on what size UV (and flow rate) would be effective on a 20g QT tank? __________________ August 2011 TOTM

06/12/2009, 09:34 PM	#325
crooks Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Elgin IL Posts: 1,346	Once a glass tank is used for copper treatment it can no longer be a reef tank correct? What about a rubbermaid tub I have two 150 gal tubs. If I use one for copper can I bleach it or clean it, in any way to use it as a sump again?