NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[patsan]

Originally posted by rufio173
Well, if it's a problem w/ getting water actually into the oveflow box, then no, upsizing the size from drain pipe to your sump will not matter, but if it were not your overflow teeth restricting flow, then yes, it would help. Peace John H.

I'm not positive it's the teeth yet.
The bulkhead is a 1½" bh that's reduced down to 1". I don't know why...it's the way I got it. That's why I have the 1½" pipe inside the overflow box, and why I used 1" pipe going into the sump.
I have it running beautifully now, but just concerned about closing off the valve going from the sump to the pump (restricting the flow somewhat and not running it fully open). I don't want to burn the pump out. It's not hot or anything or else it would have shut off automatically.

[ribs]

Patsan,
let me know if this is info-overkill, hehe, just been watching this thread lately.

I have it running beautifully now, but just concerned about closing off the valve going from the sump to the pump (restricting the flow somewhat and not running it fully open). I don't want to burn the pump out. It's not hot or anything or else it would have shut off automatically.

I would be concerned too, with what you have there and highly suggest the following:
Valve from the sump to the pump - open it 100%, never, ever move it from full open unless servicing something downstream, at which time you'd be fully closing it for service
Then,
Install a valve (gate preferred) from the pump to the tank and use this to vary the return flow.
This is much better on the pump performance, and you'll get better control of your flow.

[themoodys]

Why not just T off the return back into the sump to bleed off some of the flow, while still running the pump fully open?

[Beenalongtime79]

Oh hey Pat,

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were ball valving off the inlet of your pump. You definitely do not want to do that.

Do as ribs say and get another ball valve from pump outlet to display. That will not effect your pump unless you really obstruct flow.

Actually, instead of getting a ball valve, I'd just get an eductor for your return and it pretty much acts as a restriction on overall flow, but will really boost up the flow in the tank! That is one of its advantages if you need to slow overall flow thru the system, but don't want to decrease and actually want to increase flow in the display.

The pump you have will not run hot b/c it is cooled by the water of your tank, thus doubling as a heater as well. Haha

Peace,
John H.

[patsan]

Originally posted by themoodys
Why not just T off the return back into the sump to bleed off some of the flow, while still running the pump fully open?

I tried that yesterday after I first turned the pump on. All it did was send most of the water back into the sump, and barely anything was going to the return.

Ribs...I guess I am going to have to put a valve in there. That was my original plan yetersay when I saw the problem, but then thought if I could divert some of the water that it might solve the problem, so I did the Tee with another valve.

John, I don't know what an educator is. Don't forget I am handicapped when it comes to plumbing. I can handle putting another valve in after the pump....but I don't know anything about educators. It's the first time I've heard that word since our school budget vote!

[patsan]

Can someone just tell me "why" it's not good to restrict the flow to the pump? I keep reading to always flow 100% to the pump and that's why I was concerned about it, but what's the difference if you're restricting the flow between the sump and pump or between pump and tank?

[ribs]

[ribs]

that was funky..hehe

[themoodys]

<~~~~ Lurker Extraordinaire!!

[ribs]

Can someone just tell me "why" it's not good to restrict the flow to the pump? I keep reading to always flow 100% to the pump and that's why I was concerned about it, but what's the difference if you're restricting the flow between the sump and pump or between pump and tank?

I believe it's a function of the type of pumps we usually use. They should have as much unrestricted "head" of water on them, which is often the height of the sump return section, to prevent the intake (suction) of the pump from creating all sorts of turbulence and fluid reactions.
I do not know in the least bit about the specifics of this.

Here's a quote from an online source:
"As the liquid passes from the pump suction to the eye of the impeller, the velocity increases and the pressure decreases. There are also pressure losses due to shock and turbulence as the liquid strikes the impeller. The centrifugal force of the impeller vanes further increases the velocity and decreases the pressure of the liquid....." - here's where you want a nice unrestricted straight shot to the pump
and
"The consequences of prolonged conditions of cavitation and low flow operation can be disastrous for both the pump and the process.
so, I read that as if you want to prevent premature cavitation/erratic flow you'll want to have enough head and minimize restrictions (valves) or obstacles (90s).

With all that said, I have a big 90 right before the inlet of my pump . I couldn't avoid it.

[patsan]

Thanks Ribs....I understand it a little better now.
I put the valve in and it's working like a charm. Totally silent and I now have the pump 100% open from the sump to the pump. As I was adjusting it, my emergency overflows kicked in, so I know they work great! (I have 2 emergency overflows)
Thanks everyone for all your help. I really appreciate it!

[ribs]

Great Pat!
Keep an eye on it at first, I over/undershot my settings in the beginning.

[patsan]

Originally posted by ribs
Great Pat!
Keep an eye on it at first, I over/undershot my settings in the beginning.

It's been running great since I started it up without any more adjustments yet. I'll continue to keep an eye out on it for a while though.
This is the first time I've ever done any kind of plumbing. My husband usually does this type of stuff. He let me stew and figure it out all on my own this time.

[ribs]

I was actually under the impression that you were he, my sincerest apologies!!
Looks like ya got it, nice work!

[Willy315]

clean setup...very nice! I have my return tee'd goin back to the sump and to my fuge....The Tee to the sump was a waste due to the restriction my scwd made but oh well its there if I need it

[surfjeepzx]

I have a very similar set up for the returns but I'm still using the dursos. My tank has 1 built in overflow with 2 returns and 1 output.

I made the dursos myself and played with them until I had found the source of the noise from the durso. The trick I found was to use 1" thinwall pipe. On the T that you connect the elbow to, don't drill a hole below the elbow. This I found was the source of the noise from the durso. You should only have 3 holes at 1/2" dia. each with the top of the hole level with the bottom of the side pipe from the T. You should only drill a 1/8-3/16" hole in the cap at the top of the durso. Into that small hole I fitted a small hose barb which silenced the small hiss I was hearing.

With (2) 1" returns exiting the same overflow box and the plumbing below the tank slightly different as it makes it's way to the sump, it was obvious that the water flow through both pipes was not equal by observing the discharges in the sump. The pipe that was flowing more was making more noise. The obvious fix to this was to slow that flow down and the way to do that was to place a ball valve in line. In order to regulate and balance the flow through both pipes I placed a ball valve in line with both returns. By slowing the flow through both return pipes it was like hitting the mute button on the TV remote. The trick here was to watch the overflow box and start turning the ball valves closed while also keeping the water discharges equal. Once the overflow started to rise at the top I simply backed the valve off just slightly. Then let the tank flow stabilize and tweak it again. I found that by regulating (reducing) the rate at which the water exitted the tank from a freefalling rate to a stabilized balanced rate that the noise was all but gone.

My rio 17hf is pumping totally unrestricted via 1" ID nylon tubing = 3/4" OD where it connects to the stub pipe below the tank at the bulkhead. From there it's 3/4" pvc with 1 elbow where it enters the tank through the overflow box.

There is absolutely NO noise whatsoever from the overflow. NONE NADA ZIP!

The only noise I had then was a slight grumble from the 1" pipe as the water accumulated at the ball valves. My cure for that was simple. Either re-plumb with thickwall PVC or use pipe insulation. For about $5 I bought 2 eight foot pieces of pipe insulation and with a steak knife I cut and fitted the insulation over the pipes under the tank.

Of course as you continue to silence one part of the tank the other components start to speak up. The next noise maker was the sump where the water was exitting the discharge pipes. By placing a T at the end of the discharge pipes with a small standpipe above the water line the discharges were silenced.

Then the skimmer return was left. The water falling off the return pipe was splashing so I installed a 45 degree connector and a section of scrap pipe so the return water was directed just above the water level in the sump which stopped the splashing.

My tank is 95% SILENT during the day with only the slight harmonic humm of the 5 fans in the canopy and that is only evident if you stand near the tank during the day. At night all the fans are switched off via timers. I only run the fans during light operation.

At night when all is quiet and the daytime noise of life is gone I can still make out a slight amount of grumble from the return pipes. I attribute that to my choice of pipe insulation as I chose the thinner type. This week if I remember I will pick up some thicker insulation and redo the pipes. I may even pick up some acoustic padding and line the inside of my lower cabinet sidewalls. This should kill any and all remaining water noise as my house is 100% tile and tends to carry sound well throughout the house. Yet, even before I change the pipe insulation and add the acoustic padding I would say my tank is 97% silent. My wife says she can't hear anything as it is, I guess my hearing is slightly better.

[patsan]

Originally posted by ribs
I was actually under the impression that you were he, my sincerest apologies!!
Looks like ya got it, nice work!

No need to apologize. I think because I've never had to do any kind of plumbing work before that it made it that much more difficult for me to understand it. I'm kind of proud of myself....I had no leaks! It doesn't look that horrible, and it works! That's more important than how it looks.
Now if dumbo would have checked the bulkheads originally, I wouldn't have had to pull out the plumbing for the drain and re-do it. I never gave it any thought, and once the water started going into the overflow, the drain bh was leaking. It didn't have any teflon tape on it, so I cut out the piping, and taped up the bh, and re-did it all. Then I saw the problem with too much flow, so tee'd it off and put a valve...but that didn't work either, so today I capped off the Tee, and put that valve in after the pump. Hours later it's still working like a charm.
I put my skimmer in the sump, and have some microbubbles, so I guess I need the pipes to slime up a bit and hopefully it will eradicate them.
I'm feeling confident enough now to get my LR next week!

[mc-cro]

.

[ribs]

surfjeepzx,
Way to go! Definately agree that after silencing one thing, another noise comes up that ya want to attend to , and actually the challenges are part of why I've enjoyed the reef setup so far.

I think that that description of your setup would be great posted in a Durso thread, and you should post it in one of those! Very descriptive and informative. You'd find people there VERY interested in your rig, it sounds like you've nailed it!
It is sorta wasted in here tho, this is about using a completely different overflow method than yours, if you read the posts you'll see no-ones asking about Durso-mods.
This thread is about a valve and some plain pipe.

[surfjeepzx]

I understand that, the main difference being your emergency stand pipe and the lack of a durso tip on the top of your return pipe. Below the tank they are about the same.

I too tried removing the durso tip from my return pipes and fitted them with slottted ends, strainers, and a couple other rigs. Yet after a few minutes the slurp would return. So I had some extra T's and started playing with the placement of the holes etc.
Also, what I found helped, you can buy a slip coupler at Lowes or Home Depot that allows you to raise or lower the standpipes to dial in the pipe height.

I'll take some pics next week and post them so everyone can see my work of art.

[ribs]

OK Off topic, tho, hehe.
That slip fitting sounds like a pvc conduit expansion coupling, or something else? Is it easier to adjust than a gate valve?
Pics of peoples setups are great to look at, lets see it!

I must say the pics of people placing solely an open stick of pipe "above" the tank bottom and another open pipe w/a valve underneath to get the water into the sump (instead of on the floor) is pretty sweet to look at, too.

[patsan]

Sorry to bother everyone again, but I'd like to know from people who have been running Herbie's method how often you need to make adjustments. This is what hapened to me:
I put the skimmer into the sump and started it up yesterday afternoon. All well and good.
By about 10 last night, I turned the skimmer off because the pump on it was making too much noise. (I have heard this is common with the ASM's when first put in..that's not really the issue too much here.)

When I turned the skimmer off, I did NOT touch any settings on the valves...just shut down the skimmer.
This morning, I decided to turn the skimmer on again. Within a short time, I start hearing noise, and see that the water in the sump was down by the bulkhead, so I quickly shut the pump off. I turned it on again and looked into the overflow box to see was rising higher than normal and I was waiting for the emergency drains to kick in. Before I let that happen I just turned the pump off again.
I had a few things to do, so about 20 minutes later I decide I need to tune it all in again and get the tank running. I first turned on the skimmer, then the pump and watched the water levels. I don't remember, but I may have just "tapped" the valve going into the return to slow it. If I did that, it was just barely and not even a turn on the valve. This time around, everything worked just right.

Is this normal? Each time will this slight adjustment have to be made if I turn the skimmer off? I'm just trying to learn what is normal and what isn't. Thanks.

[Beenalongtime79]

Pat,

Do you have the skimmer baffled off in another compartment that is separate from where the drain line is in the sump?

The real question is does the water level change in the drain line section when you turn on the skimmer?

As stated earlier, if you change the water levels in your sump, the water levels in your overflow will vary as well.

Peace,
John H.

[patsan]

Originally posted by rufio173
Pat, Do you have the skimmer baffled off in another compartment that is separate from where the drain line is in the sump? The real question is does the water level change in the drain line section when you turn on the skimmer? As stated earlier, if you change the water levels in your sump, the water levels in your overflow will vary as well.
Peace, John H.

Yes, the skimmer is in it's own section. After I turned it all on again, I did add a little bit of water that would have been normal evaporation...but I only did that after it was running well again. I have a line in the bh section of the sump labeled "water level" then I like to keep it to a line a little higher. The guy I bought the tank from must have put the little higher line mark.
It would be great if I could do an autotop in there, wouldn't it?

Even if I didn't add the topoff water, there should have been enough in there so it didn't go to the top of the bh and just start taking in air. So that was my real question...is it normal to have to make adjustments each time I will be turning the skimmer off?
I really love this though. It is so silent! I got spoiled all day long by how quiet it was and when the skimmer pump started making noise, I didn't want to hear it. The skimmer pump from the MR1 is WAY louder than my new pump...but I wanted 100% silence.
After a few hours, the skimmer pump has quieted down and is now silent...so I couldn't be any happier. I just hope it (skimmer) stays quiet now. My next project will be dealing with and combating the microbubbles from the skimmer.

[Beenalongtime79]

Pat,

Let me try to explain the events from a physical perspective and what I think happened in your tank and this is assuming that you have not baffled the skimmer off in a separate section so that by altering it's level of activity you have altered the level of water where your drain pipe lies...

At night, you turned off the skimmer and thus the water level in your sump rose slightly and this would lead to a domino effect that would cause a rise in the overflow area. At night, the water is also evaporating from the tank and thus your overall water level is actually decreasing for the total system. In the morning, you turn on the skimmer and you haven't replaced lost water and the skimmer turns on and water level rises in the skimmer, but decreases in the sump... it becomes low enough that the bulkhead starts sucking up a little air which actually means you are pumping less water into the main display, which means you are actually flowing less water. This will actually lead to a decrease in water in your overflow. At this point you then turn off the skimmer and then check on the overflow. What happens is now the skimmer is losing water and water level is now rising in the sump and the pump is no longer sucking in air which increases flow and thus you get a twofold effect that will cause levels to rise in your overflow. You have restored pump function so that increases flow to original status and the water level in the overflow will have risen and you've also restored the water in the sump to its original level and that will also cause a rise in the water level in your overflow. If you had left the pump running and not messed w/ any settings, it would have returned to the parameters set before you turned on the skimmer in the morning. If you don't want this to happen to you, you will need to replace evaporation water lost or baffle off the drain area so that water level always remains constant no matter what else you are doing in the sump.

Peace,
John H.