Have ICH looky here!!!!!

[JoelNB]

That's what they say. I guess it depends on a few things though as copper is actually an essential nutrient in extremely small doses (correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, but doesn't RHFarley dose copper?)

[WaterKeeper]

Joel,

No Randy is an iron dosing fan.

[crooks]

Originally posted by crooks
Once a glass tank is used for copper treatment it can no longer be a reef tank correct? What about a rubbermaid tub I have two 150 gal tubs. If I use one for copper can I bleach it or clean it, in any way to use it as a sump again?

[MotherFish]

To tell the truth, crooks, I've never seen any empirical evidence to confirm the rumor that a glass tank cannot be used for a reef tank after being exposed to copper treatments.

Does anyone have any information on controlled studies or clinical testing that has measured any copper leaching back out of silicone, or is it possible this could simply be another reefkeeping myth circulated by overly cautious aquarists?

Copper is a naturally occurring trace mineral in seawater at an average level of 3ppb.
A 2005 article in Advanced Aquarist's showed different brands of salt mix to contain between 5-7ppb copper, and in a 1999 study, a test sample of Instant Ocean salt mix was shown to contain 115ppb.
Other marine bio studies have shown a level as low as 10ppb can negatively impact the larval development of some invertebrates, and levels under 1ppm can cause a 100% mortality rate in certain species.

So in order to determine if a tank were truly safe to house inverts/corals after being exposed to copper we would have to know the amount of copper (if any) that is leeched back into the water column from the silicone over a set period of time between water changes.
Does anyone have a link to that information?
Perhaps this should be posted in the chemistry forum?
I've been wondering about the answer to this for a while now.

[JoelNB]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Joel,

No Randy is an iron dosing fan.

Thank you, WaterKeeper.

I had another read of the "How To" beginners series and what Randy was saying is that copper had accumulated in his system beyond NSW levels. He also stated that most is likely to be organically bound and would be removable with skimming.

I'm curious about this myself, as I have been talking to someone who threw copper in their display to treat crypto. The thread advise was that the LR would now be good for paperweights. However, she set up a QT and ran carbon to remove the copper from the display and did a partial water change...end of story. Others on that thread were horrified but the report back is that the corals were bouncing back and appearing to thrive.

[WaterKeeper]

Remember those highly boring chemistry lectures in high school or college? They would bring up the subject of mass balance which, in a nutshell, says what goes in will only equal what comes out. Since copper is not able to breed, only the amount of copper added is ever going to be present.

Now copper creeps into the tank in many magical ways but the primary means is its small presence in food and the saltwater mix we use in a water change. It is very small indeed but, over time, will bring it level to over the 0.2 ppb level found in NSW. The amount found in NSW is about 95-98% organically bound with the remainder being things like copper sulfate of chloride. That means free inorganic copper present in only few parts per trillion ranges.

Carbon and skimming can both remove organically complexed copper and will reduce its levels in evenly a heavily contaminated tank. If one gets a tank that was treated with copper and give it a acid bath (muriatic or vinegar) followed by several rinses copper will be at extremely low levels and should not be harmful to invertebrates. LR and LS do present a challenge however, as the acid treatment would kill off anything living on the substrate. They for all practical purposes do become either paperweights or base rock.

[Iwishihadgills]

Would the hypo salinity method be ok for these fish?
achilles
idol
blue dot stingray
regal angel
chevron tang
yellow tang
blue jaw trigger
(They all eat like pigs right now so will they eat like this in hypo salinity?)

thanks

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Iwishihadgills
Would the hypo salinity method be ok for these fish?
achilles
idol
blue dot stingray
regal angel
chevron tang
yellow tang
blue jaw trigger
(They all eat like pigs right now so will they eat like this in hypo salinity?)

thanks

the tangs for sure do well with hypo salinity. Not sure about the stingray and regal angel

[Iwishihadgills]

yeah i know those were my worries lol :/ and i also cant treat the stingray with copper uggh

[Iwishihadgills]

yeah i know those were my worries lol :/ and i also cant treat the stingray with copper uggh

[MotherFish]

Both the Blue Spot Stingray and the Regal Angel should be fine in hyposalinity.
While Regals are a sensitive fish in general, I'm not aware of any special problem they have with hyposalinity.
Most Stingrays in the family Dasyatidae are very tolerant of hyposalinity and can be found living in brackish conditions in the wild.

On a couple of sidenotes, how big a tank do you have?
Every source I've come across states that Stingray really shouldn't be kept longterm in a tank less than 300gal.
(Depending on species can grow between 14"-26")

Also, just out of curiousity, do you happen to know exactly which species you have?
Dasyatis kuhlii - Bluespotted Stingray, or Taeniura lymma - Bluespotted Ribbontail Ray?

[Iwishihadgills]

Its a blue spotted ribbon tail. Shes around 4-5" around . I have a 125 gallon but im upgrading in the near future. I know my tank is heavily stock but all my fish are really small right now.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Iwishihadgills
Its a blue spotted ribbon tail. Shes around 4-5" around . I have a 125 gallon but im upgrading in the near future. I know my tank is heavily stock but all my fish are really small right now.

nothing wrong with that as long as you have plans to do something in the future

[Iwishihadgills]

How is it that i have an idol in the tank and he doesnt have one spec of ich lol

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Iwishihadgills
How is it that i have an idol in the tank and he doesnt have one spec of ich lol

a moorish idol??---double indemnity I guess---it will probably starve to death before ich takes its life

[loyalrogue]

Originally posted by Iwishihadgills
How is it that i have an idol in the tank and he doesnt have one spec of ich lol

If there is Ich in the tank then the Idol has it.
An Ich infestation isn't always visible to the naked eye.
The gill tissue is especially susceptible to the Ich parasite and can carry a subclinical case of Ich without the aquarist ever noticing.
A subclinical infection can also escape detection by either too few parasites finding the host fish to be noticable and/or cysts in areas of low contrast.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by loyalrogue
If there is Ich in the tank then the Idol has it.
An Ich infestation isn't always visible to the naked eye.
The gill tissue is especially susceptible to the Ich parasite and can carry a subclinical case of Ich without the aquarist ever noticing.
A subclinical infection can also escape detection by either too few parasites finding the host fish to be noticable and/or cysts in areas of low contrast.

I agree---all your fish should be removed and treated including the idol. Your tank should remain fishless for 4-6 weeks to kill the ich off in the display tank.

[sikpupy]

What about me? I have been reading all day, litteraly, I am burnt and can not find a difinitive answer to my question, so I need to ask.

I want to take all my shrimp, snails, corals and basically anything but fish out of my tank.

I do not have a lot, if any, worms and just a few pods.

I plan to scoop out about 4-5 cups of sand, put that in another tank with the snails and such. Then drop the display to 1.009.



With all the sand and rock, will I get rid of the ich in 6-8 weeks if I do hypo?

The tank:

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by sikpupy
What about me? I have been reading all day, litteraly, I am burnt and can not find a difinitive answer to my question, so I need to ask.

I want to take all my shrimp, snails, corals and basically anything but fish out of my tank.

I do not have a lot, if any, worms and just a few pods.

I plan to scoop out about 4-5 cups of sand, put that in another tank with the snails and such. Then drop the display to 1.009.



With all the sand and rock, will I get rid of the ich in 6-8 weeks if I do hypo?

The tank:

the bacteria on your live rock will take a good hit during the hyposalinity but will grow back. However when adding the fish back you should do it slowly so the bacteria can recycle.

all the organisms in your sand bed will probably die off or drastically reduce in numbers. However if you seed it with the six cups you removed you should be okay.

Plankton cycles in the water itself will also be disturbed and possible killed off.

Corraline algae on the rocks could die.

It appears like you don't have that many fish---why not remove them instead of disturbing what appears to be a nicely established tank?

[sikpupy]

Because I did that last time, and, its back again. This time, instead of stressing the fish trying to catch them, stress them in a holding tank and not being able to see thier normal movements ( being in a forign place like another tank, they will hide, like last time) I figure I would keep them in the DT. This way, I can watch thier actions, controll water perams a little easier, have a skimmer online supplying more oxygen, use my reactor for charchol etc.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by sikpupy
Because I did that last time, and, its back again. This time, instead of stressing the fish trying to catch them, stress them in a holding tank and not being able to see thier normal movements ( being in a forign place like another tank, they will hide, like last time) I figure I would keep them in the DT. This way, I can watch thier actions, controll water perams a little easier, have a skimmer online supplying more oxygen, use my reactor for charchol etc.

I am not sure about the effectiveness of a skimmer with 1.009 salinity. Perhaps someone like the Water Keeper can answer that one

[Aquarist007]

Okay I checked it out---the skimmer will still work

[sikpupy]

The skimmer was basically to keep oxygen in the tank high. If it did actually produce some skim, then that would be a bonus. Thanks for checking it out for me.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by sikpupy
The skimmer was basically to keep oxygen in the tank high. If it did actually produce some skim, then that would be a bonus. Thanks for checking it out for me.

not a problem---I like to check these things out also

[Aquarist007]

Tom --Wkeeper--the sticky seems to have been removed from this thread??