N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[staggeringwade]

Originally Posted by FlammySnake

I can't see why people are using the pellets when they have zero nitrate in the first place!
Week 4 of tlf pellets in tlf reactor brought nitrates from 80ppm to 20 ppm! Can't wait for next week!

I have asked myself the same thing multiple times!
I know I need some nitrates for the phosphates to lower.
Personally, I have a huge GHA problem from phosphates that may be leaching out of my live rock.
I also enjoy buying gadgets and new toys for my aquariums, but I feel like I am wasting fun money on things like GFO.
I have brown acro's that should be beautiful, the color has been slowly improving.
I'm starting a 500 gallon FOWLR aquarium in the next few weeks and I do not want a DSB.
So I'm trying to figure out these pellets.
If I can make the pellets work in my 110 gallon nano aquarium I will very slowly remove the DSB.
Wade

[mm.reefs]

Originally Posted by FlammySnake

I can't see why people are using the pellets when they have zero nitrate in the first place!...

Definitely!

If someone has an established tank with near zero nitrates, BP’s will not do any good. IMHO BP’s should be used in a system with a chronic nitrate problem, after trying all basic methods of good maintenance, some bacteria dosing, etc. Also IMO is a waste of money when someone installs BP’s in a near zero nitrates hoping to feed the corals with the extra bacteria it generate. Dosing some amino’s, lipids, etc. will yield much better results.

[FlammySnake]

Proof I'm not crazy!

[ryanuuy]

How much water to skimmer ratio do you think would be good for a BP system? I heard that x3 your water volume should be the right ammount?

I have a super reef octo xp 3000 ext which is rated for 300g. My total water volume is around 120g (120g display +60 sump).

later this week, i will be adding a 50g fuge to my tank for additional water volume and critters to help feed my sps. I was thinking that after this additional water volume being added, im going to set up my extra skimmer at home thats rated for 150g.

What do you guys think? Will that make my water "too clean" or is there no such thing?

[Moser]

Originally Posted by mm.reefs

Definitely!

If someone has an established tank with near zero nitrates, BP’s will not do any good. IMHO BP’s should be used in a system with a chronic nitrate problem, after trying all basic methods of good maintenance, some bacteria dosing, etc. Also IMO is a waste of money when someone installs BP’s in a near zero nitrates hoping to feed the corals with the extra bacteria it generate. Dosing some amino’s, lipids, etc. will yield much better results.

Sorry, but that's not true.
Pellets are a different way to keep low nutrients on any system.

If you don't have the space, can you think of a more compact way of doing it?.

Have you seen Krysztof Tryc's TOTM?.... just an example, but a very good one to discredit your theory!.

Mo

[SaltyNovice]

Originally Posted by FlammySnake

I can't see why people are using the pellets when they have zero nitrate in the first place!
Week 4 of tlf pellets in tlf reactor brought nitrates from 80ppm to 20 ppm! Can't wait for next week!

That's great to hear. I wish mine would do so good. Can you tell us a little more about your set up. How old? How big? Other filtration? ETC - thanks. I'm hoping for the same results, but mine will take a lot longer. I don't know yet, but my tank may be older and have more nitrate porblems?

[mm.reefs]

Moser, thanks for supporting my theory! Let me explain:

Quote from Krysztof TOTM: "I have tried many different methods, first as a Berlin system, then, for a year, a skimmerless system using a refuge with Miracle Mud and acroalgae, and eventually Zeovit. However, that whole time I have been looking for a method that would be perfect for me."

From this it is obvious that Krysztof was not happy and not having the results he wanted before using BP's. From my experience, I have two old school 20g tanks using only good live rock and powerheads as filtration, no sump, no skimmer. One is almost 5 years old and both are full of SPS and LPS corals. I dose Microbacter, amino’s, Iodine, etc from time to time and monthly 2 gallons water changes… that’s all. These systems are always at zero nitrates/phosphates and the coral growth and color are good. I don’t see why I would need BP for these systems.

On the other hand I have a Softies/LPS’s 92g corner system, many fishes , using a sump with 6” DSB and ASM G2 skimmer running for around 5 years. Around 2 years ago it started to accumulate nitrates, usually off the scale 80ppm+ readings. The only way to control them was with big water changes, usually 30g every two weeks. I thought that the DSB was saturated and I eliminated it, but the problem persisted. I tried many things without luck (Brightwell MB7+Biofuel, Probidio+vodka, etc.). Around December 2009 I tried Biopellets and they did wonders. It took around 750ml and 4 months, but progressively the BP’s lowered and control the nitrates to around 5ppm. Now I use around 400ml of BP’s and GFO to maintain the system.

Don’t get me wrong, I like very much what BP’s can do, but in this hobby every system is a completely different world and we as hobbyist need to be real. If your system is already low in NO3/PO4 and you are happy with the growth and color of your corals, you don’t need BP’s. Also, if you are starting a new system you don’t need BP’s from the beginning. Let the system mature some months and then evaluate if you really need them.

Cheers!

[stevedola]

Originally Posted by Moser

Sorry, but that's not true.

Have you seen Krysztof Tryc's TOTM?.... just an example, but a very good one to discredit your theory!.

Mo

why does NP pellets gain the credit for a tank that was a healthy well established nearly full grown reef with no detectable NO3 and PO4s running Zeovit instead of any of the other maintenance or filtration methods.IME, the amount of amazing tanks with high efficiency skimmers and weekly watechanges far surpass the amount of amazing tanks running pellets from conception.

[tmz]

I agree sometimes you can successfully run systems with acceptable nutrient levels without organic carbon dosing.Personally, when NO3 and PO4 are otherwise kept at desired levels, I see no point in using organic carbon sources. Adding polymers, monomers, ethanol, acetate, etc. may cause TOC, total organic carbon to build up and /or encourage pathogenic bacterial activity.

[stevedola]

Originally Posted by mm.reefs

Moser, thanks for supporting my theory! Let me explain:

Quote from Krysztof TOTM: "I have tried many different methods, first as a Berlin system, then, for a year, a skimmerless system using a refuge with Miracle Mud and acroalgae, and eventually Zeovit. However, that whole time I have been looking for a method that would be perfect for me."

From this it is obvious that Krysztof was not happy and not having the results he wanted before using BP's. why is it obvious? why couldnt he just want a less time consuming method or a cheaper method rather than being dissatisfied.

[FlammySnake]

My system is a 75 gallon aga with a lifereef overflow(which is awesome btw) and "custom"(albiet not what was supposed to be made) 15 gallon sump. Live rock, skimmer and 8x54 t5 lights, set up since june. Never been able to effectively control nitrates for whatever reason(only three fish in system) and most of the coral and livestock came from a established 65 gallon I ran the previous year before moving.
My skimmer is undersized and always needs cleaning.
With that said the pellets seem to do just fine regardless of what the skimmer is doing.

[Baldwin]

I started using pellets ona new tank (2 months old, with liverock from my previous system) this is the 4th day and my tank is tremendously cloudy, I'm sure it has been stated before in this lengthy thread but any ideas, or should I try to overlook it for a few days in hopes it will go away?

[TheFishMan65]

It is the bacteria bloom. Add an air stone to make sure there is plenty of O2 as the bacteria need it also.

[Baldwin]

When should I expect it to subsist?

[TheFishMan65]

From the reading I think a few days to a week is normal.

[Baldwin]

Thanks, the top half of pellets is noticeably browner and smaller is that also normal? Im talking tank so cloudy I can barely see through it.

[flipit13]

hi baldwin
i was having the same issue and was told by 2 good guys on here it was a bacterial bloom. they told me to add airstones to my sump and in just a couple of hours later i could see it getting much clearer.

rick

lol i was to late fishman is one of the guys lol

[Scej12]

Originally Posted by SaltyNovice

Ok, here are my numbers for week number 6. I'm still a little disappointed, but I realize anything takes time in this hobby.
Temp 77.0 F
SG 1.024
PH 8.1
Amon 0.0
Nitrites 0.0
Nitrates 80 API 50 Salifert
Phosphates 1.0 API
dKH / ALK 15.0 dKH (keeps going up ???)
CAL 425
MAG 1155

I went ahead and did a 10% WC (15 gallons) - can't wait any longer.

I'm a little concerned there has not been any imporvement that I can see. I still have a little bit of "cloudy" water. I was really expecting some imporvement. The reason why - my skimmer has been going crazy for about a week. I've had to empty my cup three times the past 7 days. Before - I might empty it every two weeks or so. I've always gotten black coffee looking stuff. But now it is more of a light colored "baby poo" color - brownish/yellow and it really smells a whole lot worse than the previous skim mate. I think the colors on all my tests might be changing some or that is just a whole lot of wishing on my part - I'm not sure, but I will check back in with a report in a couple of weeks I guess. How's everybody else's numbers doing ---- getting better?

Hey Salty - it took me 4 months to go from 200++ NO3 to about 20ppm. All looks pretty good with your parameters, so all that I can suggest is that it takes time and you might even benefit from adding a little more pellets. I'm running about 3L of pellets on a 500g total vol. system. I beginning to think that if I add more pellets, I will have greater capacity for bacteria to process the nutrients.

Originally Posted by staggeringwade

I posted earlier on my poor success with ecobak and removed 50% of the pellets.
About three months have passed with about 500ml of ecobak with 140 ish gallons of water in DT tank and sumps. My phosphates are .005 ppm Hanna checker and nitrates are maybe 12ppm if the drip test is accurate at all.
Tank parameters.
Calcium 400, Alk 9, Mag 1350, PH 7.9 because using calcium reactor.
BRS Carbon and GFO 1.5 cups of each.
6 inch DSB fine oolite.
Since my hair algae is getting worse I took Dave's advice and added 1 tsp of organic cane sugar for three days in a row and now I have a bacterial bloom.
My skimmer is going nuts.
I added a big airstone to the aquarium in case the oxygen levels are low, however my ORP meter reading is at 420.
I initially thought that a maxijet 1200 was too much tumbling in the new Next Reef BioPellet reactor so I installed a ball valve to slow the tumbling down. The ball valve itself is actually wide open-the barbed fittings that screw into the ball valve restrict flow just right for now. May have to remove ball valve later.
The DSB kept the nitrates at zero on my system. But I added sugar to get the pellets going.
I have tried dosing MB7 and it did nothing to help.
I did dose 1 tsp of calcium nitrate once a week to add some nitrates to the system.
To get to the point I have questions.
How long does the bacterial bloom last before I should worry? The animals look fine, but the bloom is stinky and I have guests staying at my house.
Since I generally have zero nitrates, should I add 1 tsp of sugar or calcium nitrate a week after the bloom is over for a while or stop now?
Should I do a water change or wait a couple more days?
Thanks,
Wade

Hi Wade - I'm going to reiterate the theme of my last few posts (few pages back). I think your pH is too low. Even in freshwater tanks we know that acidic water favours plant growth. I would only guess that in saltwater that pH balance is a little higher. I think that your calc reactor can be adjusted (i.e. increase your CO2 injection) to raise your kH enough to get your pH sitting abour 8.1... I just got back from vacation (1 week) and I was pleasantly greeted by a pH setting of 8.3 - 8.4 on my system with biopellets. I had to raise my KH to 12 to achieve this, but at least now my Ca is being used up by my lps & sps; and my coralline is starting to out-compete my GHA in terms of colonizing my liverock.

Just to give a fuller picture - I should say that the CO2 should also be degassed as much as possible - i.e. run the effluent from the calc reactor into your skimmer to get rid of any latent CO2. In the past on systems where I had issues with bryopsis and/or cyano, I was sometimes able to solve the problem by taking the calc reactor completely off line for a couple of weeks. That way I was cutting what ever CO2 source was feeding the water column (and likely bringing down the pH).

Perhaps you can service the media in your calc reactor and set your focus on raising the pH up toward the 8.2 mark. I think this will help to solve your algae problems. In my case I dosed alk buffer to do this without running my calc reactor (as mentioned in a previous post, my Ca was over 520 because my pH was 7.85 which meant that stoney corals could not make use of Ca until I managed to raise the pH above 8.0 - 8.1... I was then able to turn back on the Calc reactor, and let the bubble count maintain my pH above 8.2).

HTH,

Sheldon

[Scej12]

BTW - regarding the skimmer going crazy (Salty) you might consider lowing the level a little to dry it out. I had to do this to get my undersized collection cup to last me 4 - 5 days instead of 2-3. The skimmate will be very dark and thick with bacteria. The only issue is that you'll have to clean a little more lower than that neck of the skimmer perhaps as this will muck up as well.

SJ

[SaltyNovice]

Originally Posted by Scej12

BTW - regarding the skimmer going crazy (Salty) you might consider lowing the level a little to dry it out. I had to do this to get my undersized collection cup to last me 4 - 5 days instead of 2-3. The skimmate will be very dark and thick with bacteria. The only issue is that you'll have to clean a little more lower than that neck of the skimmer perhaps as this will muck up as well.

SJ

Scej12 - thanks for the input. I appreciate your comments. I'm coming up on 7 weeks so hopefully I will see some improvement. I will probably do my tests again in 10 days and see where I am. I'm glade you said something about the skimmer because I did lower the water level last night after I emptied the cup again. And I was wondering if I was doing something that might hinder the process. I'll also consider adding more - although I really would like to see some improvement before I pump more money into this process. I'm still trying to be patient. The tank does look different but I'm not sure I can say what it is yet. The sponge seems to grow and then regress. Almost all my corals are doing real well except for the hammer coral - it has shrunk up quite a bit, but it doesn't look like it is in distress yet. Thanks again for your comments and help.............

[Scej12]

If it helps any, you should know that I was looking at the same shade of deep red (api) for at least 2.5 months, before confirming that the process is working with a bucket test. Just for the heck of it, the next time you are servicing your reactor, put the pellets in a pail with enough tank water to cover the pellets and a small circulation power-head, and run it for a half day or so. I'm willing to bet that nitrates and phosphates will read absolute 0 after the 12 hours or so. That way you will be able to confirm that the process is in fact working and will be a little more comfortable adding more pellets to speed up the process a little. keep in mind that more pellets means more skimmate as well, so be prepared to clean your cup a little more often.

SJ

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by Scej12

BTW - regarding the skimmer going crazy (Salty) you might consider lowing the level a little to dry it out. I had to do this to get my undersized collection cup to last me 4 - 5 days instead of 2-3. The skimmate will be very dark and thick with bacteria. The only issue is that you'll have to clean a little more lower than that neck of the skimmer perhaps as this will muck up as well.

SJ

Hi scej12 ,

I have the same experiences with my skimmer neck , if i don't clean it weekly then it get's mucked up with thick black smelly mud.
Completly blocking the neck of my skimmer .
It will depend on what size the neck is , mine is fairly small 1" .

greetingzz tntneon

[thebanker]

Hey guys. I thought I'd post an update since I think it says a lot.

I put my Phosban GFO reactor online again after a hiatus since installing biopellets in September. It's only been on for a week, and I see a marked improvement in coral coloration and slower microalgae growth, along with some microalgae die-off. GFO is here to stay.

The biopellets are still there, still tumbling, but I re-routed the effluent flow from the reactor as a direct input to my skimmer, so none of the biopellet-water goes into the DT directly. I'm not sure if the pellets work better or worse, as I'm wondering if this has affected my skimmer's ability to continue pulling all the other organics out of the water it usually does. Time will tell.

[Scej12]

Here's a little update regarding my quest to prove that these pellets have a negative draw on pH....

I returned from a week's vacation on Wednesday to find that my pH was sitting at 8.4; dKH was sitting at 12. I was very pleased. It should be noted however that my pellet reactor only had approx. 1/2 of it's running capacity as that is all that I could get in before flying out for vacation. Upon my first visit, I added another portion of pellets raising it up to approx. 3/4 of its regular running capacity. A couple of days later the pH was down to about 8.26 by the end of the system's photo-period... without changing any other factor except the volume of pellets employed, my system dropped exactly 0.14 onthe pH scale over two days. At this point I was on to something and decided to stick my pH probe right into the open end of the reactor. The pH in the system was 8.26; however the reading from within the reactor was 8.20. Considering the fact that the reactor is being fed by a Mag3 (320 gph or so) I don't expect the pH in the reactor to drop all that much and the fact that it is infact dropping certainly says something about the activities of the bacteria within. More and more, I'm getting closer to concluding that the respiration process and abundance of bacteria housed within the reactor, plus what ever quantities make it into the water column as bacterioplankton, has an effect on the O2/CO2 dynamic (balance) within the total system. I'm that much closer to concluding that the dKH value of a system running biopellets should be determined according what's necessary to maintain pH at natural sea levels.... approx. 8.2.

Just a little update. Feel free to comment either for or against. Thanks.

Sheldon

[rsuplido]

I finally got my SRO biopellet reactor (the one with a cone at the bottom) and I made a review of it. I shot a video of it in action as well: http://bit.ly/fNgLbJ