N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing) - Page 148

Sohal Tang Tim · 04/29/2011, 05:51 AM

When you first put the pellets in the reactor for the first couple of days
they have air attached to them...this buggers up their ability to tumble properly... You probably have a batch of air covered pellets in a single
area in the reactor and that is why they are not tumbling possibly....
or you do not have enough flow....or unlevel floor.

What I did was simply unplug the reactor, shake it side to side gently
and when I did that floating pellets from the top sunk into the collection
of them at the bottom of the reactor and then when turned unit back
on they tumbled fine. I had to do this about 10 times over 2 or 3 days
before all beads were finally saturated with water, air removed, and with
the batch tumbling....

I dont know if this is whats goin on with your's but...you might want to try that.....

you sure you have enough flow through the unit? They should easily
tumble...

the first few days with the beads in the unit they do not tumble 100percent...some do..some don't but...in a few days they all mix together
beautifully is what I have found.

Good luck,

Tim

Rhodes19 · 04/29/2011, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

my br-140 is tumbling the pellets, 1000ml, absolutely perfectly with a mag5
pump backed off to almost half... I know...that will eventually damage the pump so I may have to run a bypass instead of the valve....

If your pellets on one side are not tumbling it may be because they are covered with air (assuming they are brand new) and they have clumped....
I would shake the unit slightly side to side occassionally and it will likely
free them up into the normal tumble... Also..yes...make sure it is level.

Mine tumbling slow and perfectly consistent....

You should notttttttt be having that problem.

Perhaps you do not have enough flow????

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks. I have 3 cups (750 ml?) of pellets in there now. They've in in there for about 5 weeks now. I did have some clumping problemes when I first started but after about a week, the clumping stopped. I've shaken it several times and the pellets will move around but when I set ti back down, the just settle to the bottom. I'm beginning to wonder if the tube in the middle is not sitting directly over the triangular piece that diverts the flow on the bottom. I can't see it because the pellets are covering it. Maybe if I tilt the reactor on the side if I will get a better view.

Rhodes19 · 04/29/2011, 06:03 AM

Hi Tim,

I did have some floaters and with some shaking and a few days, most of them sunk back down to the bottom. I think my flow is ok. The side that is tumbling looks like a nice gentle boil, all the pellets are turning over/rotating from the center to the outside and back to the inside. The more I think of it the more I think the center tube may not be centered over the diverter (I guess that's the name). I'll take the reactor off line and tilt it sideways to move the pellets out of the way for a better look.

Sohal Tang Tim · 04/29/2011, 06:26 AM

yes I think that is a good idea to inspect the inside of the unit....something is not right thats for sure....

make sure the pellets do not see air or you will immediately kill the bacteria.

Good luck

Tim

Rhodes19 · 04/29/2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

make sure the pellets do not see air or you will immediately kill the bacteria.

Good luck

Tim

Thanks time, I didn't think of that. I am seeing some good results and I don't want to mess it up.

Baldwin · 04/29/2011, 04:22 PM

I'm getting ready to move to a place that's 3 1/2 hrs away. From my understanding you need good aeration when using pellets, so while in transport the fish will be aerated, but do the corals need aeration as well?

gary faulkner · 04/29/2011, 04:42 PM

If it's only 3.5 hrs. you won't need air for fish or coral. Just use enough water for them and they will be fine. Probably good for about 24-30 hrs. or so. Fish and coral are shipped half way round the world without aeration.

HTH

Baldwin · 04/29/2011, 04:47 PM

Yeah I understand that, but from what I've read the bacteria will rob the system of oxygen quicker than normally. Typically suppliers don't ship fish with biopellet driven bacteria. The only question is will the corals be fine without aeration, the fish will be aerated nonetheless.

bertoni · 04/29/2011, 05:00 PM

I would arrange for some air in the bag with the corals, and I'd keep the pellets in a separate container on their own. The pellet container might be anoxic or close to it. I'm not sure how you're planning to pack things up.

Scej12 · 04/29/2011, 11:37 PM

I agree.... Since this is all pretty new, I would not take any chances and if possible pack your charges up with O2 - both fish and coral.

IME I've seen my pH drop gradually but surely when I switch off my system. Even thought I'm using biopellets, and in theory the pellets and their bacteria are contained within a reactor, I watch my pH monitor reading change from...7.95...7.94...7.93...7.92...7.91... and so on over the course of 20-25mins. My probe is located in the a separate sump from the biopellet reactor. Based on this, I would pack the livestock with O2 if possible. Perhaps you can stop by your LSF and have them repack everything for you in bags with O2.

I'm pretty sure shipped livestock are packed with oxygen so that they can survive the day or so of shipping.

Best of luck to you,

Sheldon

DarkSephiroth · 05/01/2011, 12:51 AM

Is there a logically explanation to why i have more cyano bacteria when using NP BP? I was dosing vodka + MB7 and my tank was crystal clear. Then i switch over to NP BP and slowly i started to get more and more cyano. I followed advices here on RC and kept my calc at 420, alk at 8 and mag at 1320 but it doesn't seem to help.

I used red slime remover twice and it got rid of it for about 2-3 weeks and then it came back again. Im kinda tired of dosing chemical in my tank and having to water change after 48 hours. Any suggestion to what else i should do?

Sohal Tang Tim · 05/01/2011, 02:20 AM

I am not an expert but here is my opinion/belief...

#`1 your red slime problem has nothing to do with you switching to NP BP.
It would have happened regardless...if it came back then you never really
got rid of it... The instructions say you can nuke it a second time ...did
you do that? It is quite necessary I find....and you need to do it exactly
to the instructions... By the time you are done using the remover there
should be *zero* red slime visible in your tank....again..nothing to do with
NPBP.

#2 I dont quite understand why the cyno bloom with the NPBP but...the
bloom that I got was slight and never bothered me...I simply fed the snails
a bit more is how I looked at it....Now the cyno is gone and the colour
on my corals has never been better....

#3 I use only 1/2 of what the MFG specifies in beads... I think their
maximum amount is possibly a huge *shock* to the system and gradual
works better... If your phoshpates dont drop in 3-4 weeks then you
can begin to add a bit more pellets....

When you state "I stopped using this and began using that" it scares me a bit because it sounds like a *shocking* move to the system... You need
to ween the system off the first stuff (vodka) reducing use graaaaaadually
and then begin with the NPBP after totally off the other ..g.raaaaaadually.
is my belief. I am not a pro...just a hobbiest and hopefully this helps some
how.

Tim

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/01/2011, 06:44 AM

Is there a logically explanation to why i have more cyano bacteria when using NP BP?

From reading many threads, it seems to be a reasonably common occurrence when using pellets and also other types of organic carbon dosing. Cyano can potentially use the soluble organics, so if the pellets release any, then that could explain it.

Sohal Tang Tim · 05/01/2011, 07:06 AM

are you making sure that your NPBP reactor is exhausting into
the skimmer pump?

Tim

Alitoo_81 · 05/01/2011, 07:54 AM

hI, I am using npx bioplastic pellets 2000 ml on 2 Reactors since 06/2010. I started to see same cyano too on the sand but I am not sure if the biopellets have samething to do with it. my paramiters are 0.0ppm but my circulacion is bad.

I am about to fix the circulacion becouse on the dead spots only is were the cyano is growing and I notest same ditritus there. the cyano cames too, when you have organic nutrients. In my opinion the biopellets do not help removing the organic nutrients of the tank, it only helps removing disolved nutrients. check if you have organic nutrients on your tank and check you lighting and circulacion.

Sorry for the bad english.

Paradiddle7 · 05/01/2011, 08:22 AM

DarkSephiroth, what are your phosphates and nitrates measuring? Just because you are using the pellets doesn't mean you have zero.

I would measure them and recommend stirring up the detritus from your rocks and sand and doing a massive water change while your tank water is "dirty". That's really the best way to export phosphate, nitrates and even silicate.

Also, what Alitoo_81 said is crucial. You really need excellent flow with zero dead spots.

Scej12 · 05/01/2011, 02:03 PM

I'm certainly no expert but can only offer my own growing repository of info collected against personal findings regarding this annoying phenomenon of [not just] reef keeping.

When I first googled cyanobacteria, I found all sorts of praise from scientists studying the fundamental contributions of this bacteria which behaves like algae... it was apparently one of the original contributors of oxygen to our atmosphere, and if I remember correctly, is to a large extent credited for making earth's atmosphere liveable way back when... needless to say - all that babble was not helping me get rid of it in my fish tanks

I've also found through various accounts (written, anecdotal, personal) that cyanobacteria is extremely efficient at making use of nutrients more so than many of the other types of algae, which seem to benefit from specific nutrient biases, for example: if you have and extreme breakout of diatoms, chances are you have a surplus of silicates; if you have a similar proliferation of green hair algae, chances are you have elevated levels of phosphates; most of the other common forms of algae are directly related to levels of available nitrates in the presence of phosphates; etc... cyano on the other hand seems to thrive at times when nutrients which specifically favour all of the other forms of algae are suppressed... it is after all a bacteria! Said another way, if your aquarium manages to acheive 0ppm NO3, cyano will satisfy its Nitrogen needs from available N2 (nitrogen gas), while making use of any of the other trace element/nutrients available within your system.

All this is to say that cyanbacteria, has proven from time immemorial to be an extremely efficient life form which thrives when its competitors are stunted. Furthermore, if there is excess anything in a given water environment, cyanobacteria will be the first to make use of it. In the oceanic studies I've scanned through while trying to understand this pest; the common thread seems to be that excess nutrients made available from human activity (pollutants from run-off etc), almost inevitably lead to proliferation of cyanobacteria around coral reefs close to land. I've translated this to aquarium keeping by concluding that if anything is in excess aside from the typical NO3/PO4 common to all algae growth, cyano will be the first to make use of it.

In my personal practice, I began to suspect that my cyanobacteria challenges seemed to be coincidental with my generous dosing of certain supplements... in particular IODINE!!! In systems where I think I'm making a heroic effort to stay on top of things: religious water-changes; reasonably conquered NO3; and more specifically - dosing my supplements (even those I don't measure)... I've often found that these are the reefs in which I encounter cyanobacteria when all else seems to be in check. Alternatively, I've had those other systems too - you know, the ones where water-changes are not done every week nor every month for that matter; and more specifically, due to one reason or the other (client budget), I don't dose anything... guess what - no cyano whatsoever

... this to me has been the biggest testament that cyano thrives when there are excess nutrients which other forms of algae do not/cannot make use of. I have also made a direct observation, that my cyanobac problems usually only occur on systems that I dose iodine, and have at one point read, and would certainly advise, that when you dose iodine in addition to your water-change regime - if you don't measure levels; dose half or quarter of what is recommended on the bottle!

Not to become too superfluous in this post - I would summarize in the following way. My strategy for combating cyanobacteria has evolved to the following over the years:

1. - Immediately discontinue iodine dosing;

2. - gravel-wash & blow off the rocks to make the cyano waist energy in re-establishing rather than flourishing;

3. - dose a bacterial supplement such as mb7, zeoBak, or the like to make use of those surplus nutrients that algae doesn't benefit from like cyanobac does;

4. - focus on the O2/CO2 dynamic - remembering that cyano is photosynthetic; it thrives on CO2, just as your other algae and corals do, but have made use of all the other excesses in a way that gives it the edge.... oxygenate your water as much as possible... I've even turned off calc reactors and gone toward liquid calcium dosing until the pest has past (incidentally this works with brypsis outbreaks as well i.e. ensure you're not dosing CO2 in your system);

5. - Raise pH toward the upper range of acceptable... 8.2 - 8.4. This is helped by; and is an indication of good O2 levels.

In the end, I personally believe the relationsihp between organic dosing and cyano outbreaks has to do with that element of carbon dosing that I'e been harping on over the past few months. The target beneficiaries of carbon dosing (namely bacteria) utilize oxygen and exhaust CO2. This not only has a draw-down on pH levels, but also makes excess CO2 available for photosynthetic organisms such as cyanobacteria. And as mentioned earlier, cyano is a heck of a lot more efficient than many other photosynthetic organisms at metabolizing a wider range of available nutrients. This IMO is why it has been credited with being a foundational oxygen-building life-form in earths geophysical history; and why it currently shows up when human/land activity percolates through to our ocean environments. When employing carbon dosing, we need to keep a keen eye on pH results consequent of this new bio-dynamic within our reefs. Other aspects of our husbandry need to be monitored as well. In my view: high CO2 + Low pH + excess trace elements = cyanobacteria. In all of my years looking after fish tanks, I've always steered away from using red-slime remover, in favour of addressing the root causes... it takes time, but if you manage to correct all of the oversights/contributing factors, your cyano will subside within a month or so, and not return until your next lapse...

HTH at least a little,

Sheldon

DarkSephiroth · 05/01/2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

I am not an expert but here is my opinion/belief...

#`1 your red slime problem has nothing to do with you switching to NP BP.
It would have happened regardless...if it came back then you never really
got rid of it... The instructions say you can nuke it a second time ...did
you do that? It is quite necessary I find....and you need to do it exactly
to the instructions... By the time you are done using the remover there
should be *zero* red slime visible in your tank....again..nothing to do with
NPBP.

#2 I dont quite understand why the cyno bloom with the NPBP but...the
bloom that I got was slight and never bothered me...I simply fed the snails
a bit more is how I looked at it....Now the cyno is gone and the colour
on my corals has never been better....

#3 I use only 1/2 of what the MFG specifies in beads... I think their
maximum amount is possibly a huge *shock* to the system and gradual
works better... If your phoshpates dont drop in 3-4 weeks then you
can begin to add a bit more pellets....

When you state "I stopped using this and began using that" it scares me a bit because it sounds like a *shocking* move to the system... You need
to ween the system off the first stuff (vodka) reducing use graaaaaadually
and then begin with the NPBP after totally off the other ..g.raaaaaadually.
is my belief. I am not a pro...just a hobbiest and hopefully this helps some
how.

Tim

#1. I nuked it 2 times, i followed the direction very carefully. I've used it over 10 times in all my tanks total. Only 2 on this one that i have problem with.

#2. I'm using only 250ml of NP BP on my 80G tank with SPS and a couple LPS (torches and hammer, ect...).

#3. When i switch to BP, i didn't just stop dosing MB7 + vodka. I slowly cut back on it over the course of ~ 2 months.

I've been using BP for about a year now and first when i started using it and noticing more cyano. I stopped using it for 3 weeks and the cyano began to disappear. After all the cyano are gone, i rinse the BP, clean the reactor, restart it and noticed once again more cyano. So im pretty confidence to say that the BP are the reason that i have more cyano right now.

So im really considering taking it offline again and test it out one more time to see if its 100% the reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sohal Tang Tim

are you making sure that your NPBP reactor is exhausting into
the skimmer pump?

Tim

Yes, the outlet is going straight to the inlet of my skimmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradiddle7

DarkSephiroth, what are your phosphates and nitrates measuring? Just because you are using the pellets doesn't mean you have zero.

I would measure them and recommend stirring up the detritus from your rocks and sand and doing a massive water change while your tank water is "dirty". That's really the best way to export phosphate, nitrates and even silicate.

Also, what Alitoo_81 said is crucial. You really need excellent flow with zero dead spots.

I have 0 phoshate and 1 nitrate via Elos test kit, i tested it twice per kit to make sure i get the same number.

I water change 10G every week using Reef Crystal and RO/DI (00PPM). I stir up the sand every time and siphon it out like you said. I've never skip a week ever since i set up this tank.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/01/2011, 05:47 PM

In my view: high CO2 + Low pH + excess trace elements = cyanobacteria.

Just to clarify a bit, high CO2 and low pH are not "different things" that you can control (aside from changing the alkalinity). The pH is mathematically determined by the CO2 level and the alkalinity. So pH is indicating to you whether you have elevated CO2 or not.

DarkSephiroth · 05/01/2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

In my view: high CO2 + Low pH + excess trace elements = cyanobacteria.

Just to clarify a bit, high CO2 and low pH are not "different things" that you can control (aside from changing the alkalinity). The pH is mathematically determined by the CO2 level and the alkalinity. So pH is indicating to you whether you have elevated CO2 or not.

So how do i determined CO2 lv by using PH? Is it Low PH = Low CO2? and High PH = High CO2? Or Low PH = High CO2?

On a note, my PH is always low ( 7.7). I dose alk to bring it up (but making sure its not too high) and i drip kalk at night to help with PH too. But it didn't seem to be working.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/01/2011, 06:07 PM

Low pH = high CO2:

This explains it:

The "How To" Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 3: pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php
from it:

Figure 2. The relationship between alkalinity and pH in seawater with normal carbon dioxide levels (black), excess carbon dioxide (purple) and deficient carbon dioxide (blue). The green area represents normal seawater.

DarkSephiroth · 05/01/2011, 06:12 PM

Cool thanks, time to do homework =)

purge43 · 05/01/2011, 06:47 PM

A week into the start of bio pellets and now my ph is at 8.6. Are these bacteria using up the co2? There is the reported slight cloudy/white haze in the tank now. Ive never seen my ph that high and there were no other changes/additions.

Scej12 · 05/01/2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

In my view: high CO2 + Low pH + excess trace elements = cyanobacteria.

Just to clarify a bit, high CO2 and low pH are not "different things" that you can control (aside from changing the alkalinity). The pH is mathematically determined by the CO2 level and the alkalinity. So pH is indicating to you whether you have elevated CO2 or not.

Good catch Randy - I noticed this as I was running out the door and thought oops.... might have to get back to that, but I'm glad someone's keeping us honest out there....! Aba-solutely korrected by the expert I stand.\\

Cheers,

Sheldon

Scej12 · 05/01/2011, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purge43

A week into the start of bio pellets and now my ph is at 8.6. Are these bacteria using up the co2? There is the reported slight cloudy/white haze in the tank now. Ive never seen my ph that high and there were no other changes/additions.

How are you measuring pH? Use two different methods to confirm. This seems highly unusual. If using a probe make sure it's calibrated... quite a common parallax error is to use an inaccurate/uncalibrated probe.

SJ

04/29/2011, 05:51 AM	#3676
Sohal Tang Tim Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Collingwood , ON, Canada Posts: 928	air on pellets When you first put the pellets in the reactor for the first couple of days they have air attached to them...this buggers up their ability to tumble properly... You probably have a batch of air covered pellets in a single area in the reactor and that is why they are not tumbling possibly.... or you do not have enough flow....or unlevel floor. What I did was simply unplug the reactor, shake it side to side gently and when I did that floating pellets from the top sunk into the collection of them at the bottom of the reactor and then when turned unit back on they tumbled fine. I had to do this about 10 times over 2 or 3 days before all beads were finally saturated with water, air removed, and with the batch tumbling.... I dont know if this is whats goin on with your's but...you might want to try that..... you sure you have enough flow through the unit? They should easily tumble... the first few days with the beads in the unit they do not tumble 100percent...some do..some don't but...in a few days they all mix together beautifully is what I have found. Good luck, Tim __________________ "My God Reefs are Gorgeous!" Current Tank Info: 25 gallon reef

04/29/2011, 06:26 AM	#3679
Sohal Tang Tim Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Collingwood , ON, Canada Posts: 928	good idea yes I think that is a good idea to inspect the inside of the unit....something is not right thats for sure.... make sure the pellets do not see air or you will immediately kill the bacteria. Good luck Tim __________________ "My God Reefs are Gorgeous!" Current Tank Info: 25 gallon reef

04/29/2011, 04:22 PM	#3681
Baldwin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Sparta, VA Posts: 1,330	I'm getting ready to move to a place that's 3 1/2 hrs away. From my understanding you need good aeration when using pellets, so while in transport the fish will be aerated, but do the corals need aeration as well? __________________ 92 Corner 60 Cube 40 Long

04/29/2011, 04:42 PM	#3682
gary faulkner Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,468	If it's only 3.5 hrs. you won't need air for fish or coral. Just use enough water for them and they will be fine. Probably good for about 24-30 hrs. or so. Fish and coral are shipped half way round the world without aeration. HTH __________________ Gary Current Tank Info: 300G SPS

04/29/2011, 04:47 PM	#3683
Baldwin Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Sparta, VA Posts: 1,330	Yeah I understand that, but from what I've read the bacteria will rob the system of oxygen quicker than normally. Typically suppliers don't ship fish with biopellet driven bacteria. The only question is will the corals be fine without aeration, the fish will be aerated nonetheless. __________________ 92 Corner 60 Cube 40 Long

04/29/2011, 06:03 AM	#3678
Rhodes19 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 971	Hi Tim, I did have some floaters and with some shaking and a few days, most of them sunk back down to the bottom. I think my flow is ok. The side that is tumbling looks like a nice gentle boil, all the pellets are turning over/rotating from the center to the outside and back to the inside. The more I think of it the more I think the center tube may not be centered over the diverter (I guess that's the name). I'll take the reactor off line and tilt it sideways to move the pellets out of the way for a better look.

04/29/2011, 05:00 PM	#3684
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I would arrange for some air in the bag with the corals, and I'd keep the pellets in a separate container on their own. The pellet container might be anoxic or close to it. I'm not sure how you're planning to pack things up. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/29/2011, 11:37 PM	#3685
Scej12 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 304	I agree.... Since this is all pretty new, I would not take any chances and if possible pack your charges up with O2 - both fish and coral. IME I've seen my pH drop gradually but surely when I switch off my system. Even thought I'm using biopellets, and in theory the pellets and their bacteria are contained within a reactor, I watch my pH monitor reading change from...7.95...7.94...7.93...7.92...7.91... and so on over the course of 20-25mins. My probe is located in the a separate sump from the biopellet reactor. Based on this, I would pack the livestock with O2 if possible. Perhaps you can stop by your LSF and have them repack everything for you in bags with O2. I'm pretty sure shipped livestock are packed with oxygen so that they can survive the day or so of shipping. Best of luck to you, Sheldon

05/01/2011, 12:51 AM	#3686
DarkSephiroth Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 118	Is there a logically explanation to why i have more cyano bacteria when using NP BP? I was dosing vodka + MB7 and my tank was crystal clear. Then i switch over to NP BP and slowly i started to get more and more cyano. I followed advices here on RC and kept my calc at 420, alk at 8 and mag at 1320 but it doesn't seem to help. I used red slime remover twice and it got rid of it for about 2-3 weeks and then it came back again. Im kinda tired of dosing chemical in my tank and having to water change after 48 hours. Any suggestion to what else i should do?

05/01/2011, 02:20 AM	#3687
Sohal Tang Tim Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Collingwood , ON, Canada Posts: 928	red slime nothing to do with NP. I am not an expert but here is my opinion/belief... #`1 your red slime problem has nothing to do with you switching to NP BP. It would have happened regardless...if it came back then you never really got rid of it... The instructions say you can nuke it a second time ...did you do that? It is quite necessary I find....and you need to do it exactly to the instructions... By the time you are done using the remover there should be zero red slime visible in your tank....again..nothing to do with NPBP. #2 I dont quite understand why the cyno bloom with the NPBP but...the bloom that I got was slight and never bothered me...I simply fed the snails a bit more is how I looked at it....Now the cyno is gone and the colour on my corals has never been better.... #3 I use only 1/2 of what the MFG specifies in beads... I think their maximum amount is possibly a huge shock to the system and gradual works better... If your phoshpates dont drop in 3-4 weeks then you can begin to add a bit more pellets.... When you state "I stopped using this and began using that" it scares me a bit because it sounds like a shocking move to the system... You need to ween the system off the first stuff (vodka) reducing use graaaaaadually and then begin with the NPBP after totally off the other ..g.raaaaaadually. is my belief. I am not a pro...just a hobbiest and hopefully this helps some how. Tim __________________ "My God Reefs are Gorgeous!" Current Tank Info: 25 gallon reef

05/01/2011, 06:44 AM	#3688
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Is there a logically explanation to why i have more cyano bacteria when using NP BP? From reading many threads, it seems to be a reasonably common occurrence when using pellets and also other types of organic carbon dosing. Cyano can potentially use the soluble organics, so if the pellets release any, then that could explain it. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

05/01/2011, 07:06 AM	#3689
Sohal Tang Tim Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Collingwood , ON, Canada Posts: 928	exhaust into skimmer are you making sure that your NPBP reactor is exhausting into the skimmer pump? Tim __________________ "My God Reefs are Gorgeous!" Current Tank Info: 25 gallon reef

05/01/2011, 07:54 AM	#3690
Alitoo_81 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 163	hI, I am using npx bioplastic pellets 2000 ml on 2 Reactors since 06/2010. I started to see same cyano too on the sand but I am not sure if the biopellets have samething to do with it. my paramiters are 0.0ppm but my circulacion is bad. I am about to fix the circulacion becouse on the dead spots only is were the cyano is growing and I notest same ditritus there. the cyano cames too, when you have organic nutrients. In my opinion the biopellets do not help removing the organic nutrients of the tank, it only helps removing disolved nutrients. check if you have organic nutrients on your tank and check you lighting and circulacion. Sorry for the bad english. __________________ 3D AKiL'S Reef TanK - 200 Gallons Last edited by Alitoo_81; 05/01/2011 at 07:59 AM.

05/01/2011, 08:22 AM	#3691
Paradiddle7 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Amherst Posts: 797	DarkSephiroth, what are your phosphates and nitrates measuring? Just because you are using the pellets doesn't mean you have zero. I would measure them and recommend stirring up the detritus from your rocks and sand and doing a massive water change while your tank water is "dirty". That's really the best way to export phosphate, nitrates and even silicate. Also, what Alitoo_81 said is crucial. You really need excellent flow with zero dead spots.

05/01/2011, 02:03 PM	#3692
Scej12 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 304	The Enigma of Cyanobacteria... I'm certainly no expert but can only offer my own growing repository of info collected against personal findings regarding this annoying phenomenon of [not just] reef keeping. When I first googled cyanobacteria, I found all sorts of praise from scientists studying the fundamental contributions of this bacteria which behaves like algae... it was apparently one of the original contributors of oxygen to our atmosphere, and if I remember correctly, is to a large extent credited for making earth's atmosphere liveable way back when... needless to say - all that babble was not helping me get rid of it in my fish tanks I've also found through various accounts (written, anecdotal, personal) that cyanobacteria is extremely efficient at making use of nutrients more so than many of the other types of algae, which seem to benefit from specific nutrient biases, for example: if you have and extreme breakout of diatoms, chances are you have a surplus of silicates; if you have a similar proliferation of green hair algae, chances are you have elevated levels of phosphates; most of the other common forms of algae are directly related to levels of available nitrates in the presence of phosphates; etc... cyano on the other hand seems to thrive at times when nutrients which specifically favour all of the other forms of algae are suppressed... it is after all a bacteria! Said another way, if your aquarium manages to acheive 0ppm NO3, cyano will satisfy its Nitrogen needs from available N2 (nitrogen gas), while making use of any of the other trace element/nutrients available within your system. All this is to say that cyanbacteria, has proven from time immemorial to be an extremely efficient life form which thrives when its competitors are stunted. Furthermore, if there is excess *anything* in a given water environment, cyanobacteria will be the first to make use of it. In the oceanic studies I've scanned through while trying to understand this pest; the common thread seems to be that excess nutrients made available from human activity (pollutants from run-off etc), almost inevitably lead to proliferation of cyanobacteria around coral reefs close to land. I've translated this to aquarium keeping by concluding that if anything is in excess aside from the typical NO3/PO4 common to all algae growth, cyano will be the first to make use of it. In my personal practice, I began to suspect that my cyanobacteria challenges seemed to be coincidental with my generous dosing of certain supplements... in particular IODINE!!! In systems where I think I'm making a heroic effort to stay on top of things: religious water-changes; reasonably conquered NO3; and more specifically - dosing my supplements (even those I don't measure)... I've often found that these are the reefs in which I encounter cyanobacteria when all else seems to be in check. Alternatively, I've had those other systems too - you know, the ones where water-changes are not done every week nor every month for that matter; and more specifically, due to one reason or the other (client budget), I don't dose anything... guess what - no cyano whatsoever... this to me has been the biggest testament that cyano thrives when there are excess nutrients which other forms of algae do not/cannot make use of. I have also made a direct observation, that my cyanobac problems usually only occur on systems that I dose iodine, and have at one point read, and would certainly advise, that when you dose iodine in addition to your water-change regime - if you don't measure levels; dose half or quarter of what is recommended on the bottle! Not to become too superfluous in this post - I would summarize in the following way. My strategy for combating cyanobacteria has evolved to the following over the years: 1. - Immediately discontinue iodine dosing; 2. - gravel-wash & blow off the rocks to make the cyano waist energy in re-establishing rather than flourishing; 3. - dose a bacterial supplement such as mb7, zeoBak, or the like to make use of those surplus nutrients that algae doesn't benefit from like cyanobac does; 4. - focus on the O2/CO2 dynamic - remembering that cyano is photosynthetic; it thrives on CO2, just as your other algae and corals do, but have made use of all the other excesses in a way that gives it the edge.... oxygenate your water as much as possible... I've even turned off calc reactors and gone toward liquid calcium dosing until the pest has past (incidentally this works with brypsis outbreaks as well i.e. ensure you're not dosing CO2 in your system); 5. - Raise pH toward the upper range of acceptable... 8.2 - 8.4. This is helped by; and is an indication of good O2 levels. In the end, I personally believe the relationsihp between organic dosing and cyano outbreaks has to do with that element of carbon dosing that I'e been harping on over the past few months. The target beneficiaries of carbon dosing (namely bacteria) utilize oxygen and exhaust CO2. This not only has a draw-down on pH levels, but also makes excess CO2 available for photosynthetic organisms such as cyanobacteria. And as mentioned earlier, cyano is a heck of a lot more efficient than many other photosynthetic organisms at metabolizing a wider range of available nutrients. This IMO is why it has been credited with being a foundational oxygen-building life-form in earths geophysical history; and why it currently shows up when human/land activity percolates through to our ocean environments. When employing carbon dosing, we need to keep a keen eye on pH results consequent of this new bio-dynamic within our reefs. Other aspects of our husbandry need to be monitored as well. In my view: high CO2 + Low pH + excess trace elements = cyanobacteria. In all of my years looking after fish tanks, I've always steered away from using red-slime remover, in favour of addressing the root causes... it takes time, but if you manage to correct all of the oversights/contributing factors, your cyano will subside within a month or so, and not return until your next lapse... HTH at least a little, Sheldon

05/01/2011, 05:47 PM	#3694
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	In my view: high CO2 + Low pH + excess trace elements = cyanobacteria. Just to clarify a bit, high CO2 and low pH are not "different things" that you can control (aside from changing the alkalinity). The pH is mathematically determined by the CO2 level and the alkalinity. So pH is indicating to you whether you have elevated CO2 or not. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

05/01/2011, 06:07 PM	#3696
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Low pH = high CO2: This explains it: The "How To" Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 3: pH http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php from it: Figure 2. The relationship between alkalinity and pH in seawater with normal carbon dioxide levels (black), excess carbon dioxide (purple) and deficient carbon dioxide (blue). The green area represents normal seawater. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

05/01/2011, 06:12 PM	#3697
DarkSephiroth Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 118	Cool thanks, time to do homework =)

05/01/2011, 06:47 PM	#3698
purge43 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: philadelphia, pa Posts: 435	A week into the start of bio pellets and now my ph is at 8.6. Are these bacteria using up the co2? There is the reported slight cloudy/white haze in the tank now. Ive never seen my ph that high and there were no other changes/additions.